Apostolic councils?

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DNB

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What's the "Roman" Catholic Church?

I belong to the "Catholic Church". "Roman" simply refers to the Liturgical Rite - of which there are some TWENTY that comprise the ONE Catholic Church.
Among these are the Byzantine Rite, Melkite, Maronite, Coptic, Alexandrian, etc. NONE of them are "Roman" Catholics.

As for the CATHOLIC Church - it was built by Christ. We read about this Church in the writings of 1st Century Bishop, Ignatius of antioch in his Letter to the Smyrnaeans. This was one of 7 Letters that he wrote on his way to his martyrdom in Rome at the beginning of the 2nd century. Ignatius was a student of the Apostle John and was appointed Bishop of Antioch by Peter.

Ignatius of Antioch
Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole EUCHARIST you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 107]).

Now - does that sound like YOUR church?
I didn't think so . . .
No, not at all. BTW, thank you for the excerpt, it revealed a lot. Deacons are nothing more than assistants, they hold no power nor authority, for even women were allowed to be deacons. Thus, Ignatius was wrong in his reverence towards them, equating it with God, that is. They do have a hierarchy, and are to be respected as much as their duties warrant, but not, as Ignatius states 'with the same reverence as you would a command from God'. Deacons can be deposed, the Words of God cannot be altered or defied.

Thus, no one has kept the apostolic tradition. The Church that you belong to, whether it be considered Roman or Western or Catholic, has a very distinct delineation and circumscription, in both its theology and geography and demograph, irrespective of what it's called. You are wrong to have such implicit faith in such an institution that was derived from such secular and specious origins.
 

BreadOfLife

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No, not at all. BTW, thank you for the excerpt, it revealed a lot. Deacons are nothing more than assistants, they hold no power nor authority, for even women were allowed to be deacons. Thus, Ignatius was wrong in his reverence towards them, equating it with God, that is. They do have a hierarchy, and are to be respected as much as their duties warrant, but not, as Ignatius states 'with the same reverence as you would a command from God'. Deacons can be deposed, the Words of God cannot be altered or defied.

Thus, no one has kept the apostolic tradition. The Church that you belong to, whether it be considered Roman or Western or Catholic, has a very distinct delineation and circumscription, in both its theology and geography and demograph, irrespective of what it's called. You are wrong to have such implicit faith in such an institution that was derived from such secular and specious origins.
First of all - you're WRONG about Deacons.
Women were appointed deacons with very LIMITED faculties in the Early Church. The MAIN reason was Baptism.

Since adult Baptisms were usually full immersions the candidate was usually in various states of undress. It was deemed inappropriate for a man to Baptize a half naked woman - so females were assigned this task. This eventually phased out as catechumens wore white linens when they were Baptized. This is PART of the etymology of the word for "Easter" - but that is another subject altogether . . ..
 

DNB

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First of all - you're WRONG about Deacons.
Women were appointed deacons with very LIMITED faculties in the Early Church. The MAIN reason was Baptism.

Since adult Baptisms were usually full immersions the candidate was usually in various states of undress. It was deemed inappropriate for a man to Baptize a half naked woman - so females were assigned this task. This eventually phased out as catechumens wore white linens when they were Baptized. This is PART of the etymology of the word for "Easter" - but that is another subject altogether . . ..
Deacons were assistants, they did not teach nor impart doctrine or wisdom. Which still encompasses your definition. I am merely refuting Ignatius' grasp of such a hierarchy, showing his lack of understanding and defiance to apostolic tradition.
 

BreadOfLife

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Deacons were assistants, they did not teach nor impart doctrine or wisdom. Which still encompasses your definition. I am merely refuting Ignatius' grasp of such a hierarchy, showing his lack of understanding and defiance to apostolic tradition.
Deacons are much more that mere "assistants". They are clerics.

Deacons have some - not all - of the faculties of a priest.
Deacons can Baptize, they can and preach at Mass, they can officiate a wedding. These are NOT things that are allowed by the laity.
 

DNB

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Deacons are much more that mere "assistants". They are clerics.

Deacons have some - not all - of the faculties of a priest.
Deacons can Baptize, they can and preach at Mass, they can officiate a wedding. These are NOT things that are allowed by the laity.
I agree, excuse the brevity of my definition, but it was just meant to show where Ignatius was in error, and therefore, unreliable to an indefinite degree.
 

BreadOfLife

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I agree, excuse the brevity of my definition, but it was just meant to show where Ignatius was in error, and therefore, unreliable to an indefinite degree.
HOW so??

Ignatius recognized the importance of Deacons and held them in high regard.
So does Scripture . . .

Acts 6:3
Therefore, brethren, select from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may put in charge of this task.

1 Timothy 3:8-13
Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well. For those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

As for the rest of Ignatius's description of the Church - it HARDLY falls in line with Evangelical Protestantism . . .

 

DNB

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HOW so??

Ignatius recognized the importance of Deacons and held them in high regard.
So does Scripture . . .

Acts 6:3
Therefore, brethren, select from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may put in charge of this task.

1 Timothy 3:8-13
Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well. For those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

As for the rest of Ignatius's description of the Church - it HARDLY falls in line with Evangelical Protestantism . . .
Ignatius raised them above Timothy's criteria. Quit giving these guys so much credit.
 

jaybird

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Hi jaybird,

Did you read the Wikipedia link you provided? That link explains WHY the Bible was generally “only available in Latin”. There was nothing nefarious about it. Today we make the mistake of looking at history thru 20th century eyes. Things were MUCH different back then and there were reasons they did what they did and it was’t for nefarious reasons.

Mary

so how did the bible go from scripture in many language to scripture in one language, who decided this?
 

jaybird

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Thank you for showing me that you don't READ the posts.
I already gave you published evidence on where this information can be gleaned.

In the book, Where We Got the Bible - Our Debt to the Catholic Church by PROTESTANT minister Rev. Henry G. Graham - he lists the evidence for previous vernacular translations of Scripture PRIOR to Wycliffe and Tyndale in Chapter 11, “Vernacular Scriptures Before Wycliff”.

If you're not going to do any homework - then don't bother debating things you DON'T know about . . .

so this guy wrote a book on people being persecuted for wanting bibles in their own language, i will have to give it a look.
 

BreadOfLife

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so this guy wrote a book on people being persecuted for wanting bibles in their own language, i will have to give it a look.
This is the kind of response I would expect from a child - and exactly why I asked you earlier how old you were . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Ignatius raised them above Timothy's criteria. Quit giving these guys so much credit.
Not at ALL.

Both of the verses I gave you who a person who must be tested and singled out to be virtuous above the rest.
That's pretty tough criteria . . .
 

jaybird

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This is the kind of response I would expect from a child - and exactly why I asked you earlier how old you were . . .
I am old enough to confirm what someone tries to teach me rather than just go along with what people tell me to believe.
 

BreadOfLife

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I am old enough to confirm what someone tries to teach me rather than just go along with what people tell me to believe.
But you're NOT old enough to give an intelligent, adult answer.
Got it.
 

DNB

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Not at ALL.

Both of the verses I gave you who a person who must be tested and singled out to be virtuous above the rest.
That's pretty tough criteria . . .
Ok, I will have to brush up on the early patristic theologians in order to make my point more substantial. I'm just trying to show where they erred, so that Christians learn to not trust anyone, or any secular authority implicitly. No one on earth has ever earned that unquestionable trust.
 

jaybird

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But you're NOT old enough to give an intelligent, adult answer.
Got it.

i guess i need to grow up and start calling people "idiot", "stupid" and "go back to your mommies basement". if only i could be more sophisticated the way you are.
 

BreadOfLife

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i guess i need to grow up and start calling people "idiot", "stupid" and "go back to your mommies basement". if only i could be more sophisticated the way you are.
No - don't do that. I never do.

I call out people's POSTS for being stupid and idiotic when they ARE stupid and idiotic.
 

BreadOfLife

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Ok, I will have to brush up on the early patristic theologians in order to make my point more substantial. I'm just trying to show where they erred, so that Christians learn to not trust anyone, or any secular authority implicitly. No one on earth has ever earned that unquestionable trust.
Earned?? No.
It was GRANTED by our Lord Jesus Christ . . .

Matt 16:16-19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven; and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matt. 18:15-18
"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that 'every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.'
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.
He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

John 20:21-23
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent ME, so I send YOU.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained.”

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."