Are all redeemed?

[justaname]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html


This article speaks how the Pope says all men are redeemed. Taken from the sermon:


"The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can... "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!".. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

So what does it mean to be redeemed?


Eerdmans Bible Dictionary


Redemption. †Release from bondage, usually by means of a price paid, though in some instances biblical usage focuses on the aspect of liberation alone.

From this perspective of redemption, it would remove the idea of total depravity. Mankind need not be concerned with original sin, because all, even if they don't believe, are redeemed.

Yet the Bible does not concur with the Pope's teachings.

Romans 3:9

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10 as it is written,
“There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
17 And the path of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”



Is the Pope giving out false teachings?

This verse tells of those who are no longer in bondage to sin.

Romans 6:17-18
17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.



What do you think, are all redeemed?

 

[joshhuntnm]

Everyone who wants to be close to God gets to be. All who want to be far from God get to be.

 

[aspen]

you can be redeemed and still live in bondage.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html


This article speaks how the Pope says all men are redeemed. Taken from the sermon:


"The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can... "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!".. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

So what does it mean to be redeemed?


Eerdmans Bible Dictionary


Redemption. †Release from bondage, usually by means of a price paid, though in some instances biblical usage focuses on the aspect of liberation alone.

From this perspective of redemption, it would remove the idea of total depravity. Mankind need not be concerned with original sin, because all, even if they don't believe, are redeemed.

Yet the Bible does not concur with the Pope's teachings.

Romans 3:9

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10 as it is written,
“There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
17 And the path of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”



Is the Pope giving out false teachings?

This verse tells of those who are no longer in bondage to sin.

Romans 6:17-18
17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.



What do you think, are all redeemed?

If the BLIND lead the blind they shall both fall into the pit. Mt 15:14

Jesus says... but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! Mt 6:23

How much does this apply to the RCC.

 

[KingJ]

It is a shame that some teaching on dead and living works did not accompany his sermon. I can only hope it is a ploy for a follow up sermon.

I really do wish everyone was redeemed. Sadly God just can't have people who are driven by selfish ambition in heaven James 3:16. Unless we choose to follow James 4, we are doomed. God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble. Perhaps if he said those who humble themeselves and not those who do good works :unsure:. Typo? ^_^.

There has to be some angle to his sermon. Common RCC teaching includes the White throne judgement for unbelievers.

 

[aspen]

How surprising it was to discover the Protestant Churches deepest fear....'are we still too catholic??'

Of course you are - better keep fighting!

How tiring it must for you guys to have to define your doctrines and beliefs by how much you can deny and separate yourselves from RCC doctrine. Especially we you hang on to so many catholic teachings!

 

[clark thompson]

All could come to the Lord if they choose to but some will choose not to and the Lord will not force them to do so and they will not have redemetion.

 

[justaname]

NOTE TO ALL:

I did not and do not intend this thread to be demeaning or degrading to any particular denomination or person. This tread was not posted to be an US VS THEM type thread.

John 13:34-35
34 “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35 “By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”


I desire to discuss the theme of redemption, different views on that. Also the pope's sermon and what we think and things of the like.

We cannot come to any conclusions unless we know exactly what the definition of redemption is, the pope's or the RCC's understanding of redemption, and what the pope means his statement "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!"

This verse is relevant to the subject.

1John 2:2
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

you can be redeemed and still live in bondage.

If we are all redeemed, what are we redeemed from?

 

[101G]

Greeting to all from the Lord Jesus.

Good topic. and in which context?.

well I'm in league with the truth, and not men doctrine. we are all "SOLD UNDER SIN". meaning the whole world. it is evident that this is true. Romans 7:14 "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin". I suggest we re-read Romans chapter 7 again, as a matter of fact the whole book is good for reading. I must agree with the pope on this one. (wait, did I say that?), God have redeemed the whole world. yes the whole world. YES. he paid the price for the whole world, 1 John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world". redemption is a buying back, that's what the RANSOM was all about. the whole world was under sin, and with sin came death, even as the apostle, stated, "even death rule over them who had not sin after the similitude of Adam. the question is not about sin, which can be forgiven. but the question is about life and DEATH. our God paid the price on Calvary for our sins. but now, its a matter of are you going to receive him?. we're redeemed from the curse, (death), and the LAW . but what do we choose?. "I have set before you LIFE and DEATH". Galatians 1:4 "Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father". that he might deliver us. that he "MIGHT". might is a condition. and that deliverance is based on our hearing, and BELIEVING the word of God. our, recompense or redemption is in Christ Jesus only, 1 Corinthians 1:30 "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption". it must be answered to. Oh yes, the prison doors have been open, for the Lord Jesus have the keys. but its like natural slavery. one is freed but without knowledge of it. still on the plantation, haven't left the plantation, or still in Spiritual bondage. here's the, he "MIGHT" deliver us. so why do we preach?. Romans 10:12 "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God".
here's the problem, John 8:33 "They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.".

yes we're Abraham's seed, but hear, Romans 9:7 "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed".
that's why we preach, so that all may receive the promise, who is the promise for?. scripture, Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call".
question, I ask, is God still calling today?, yes, so the redemption is paid for, the only thing one must do is receive it. but one must hear God call.

Now as for those who died before Christ Jesus. Romans 14:8 "For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living". God is not just the god of the Living, but of the dead also. and he preached to them also. 1 Peter 3:19 "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water".
so in life or death you're the Lord's and he will separate. he can't separate what's not his. so, the question is all redeemed, in the context of redemption from sin, YES, for one don't have to sin. be ye renew in your mind, by the hearing of faith. be born again. but to all inherit eternal life with the Lord?. you can ask our Lord that on Judgment day.

Matthew 19:26 "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible".

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

We cannot come to any conclusions unless we know exactly what the definition of redemption is, the pope's or the RCC's understanding of redemption, and what the pope means his statement "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!"

Depends on what he meant by the word redeemed. If he meant that the price of redemption has been paid for all men, he is correct. If he meant that all men will enjoy the benefits of that redemption, he's not.

 

[aspen]

it would appear that the word redeemed is being used to me justification

 

[101G]

aspen2, greeting
it would appear that the word redeemed is being used to me justification

justification is only found in Jesus the Christ. so that's a free GIFT.

 

[aspen]

right Just........which makes sense if the word redeemed is being used in the place of justication - a gift from God for all people.

i think all good actions come from God, even if the person doing good has no awareness of God in their lives. God chooses us to work through we do not choose Him. Jesus work through the demons in the swine to demonstrate God,s mercy for example.

 

[justaname]

I think this is interesting when it comes to the topic of redemption.

Ephesians 1:7
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace


Also we have this:

Romans 8:23
23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.


Redemption is spoken of as being "in Him" from the Ephesians passage, yet even the first fruits await redemption for the body.


There is no doubt nonbelievers can do "good". This is evident throughout existence. It is the motivator that brings the "good deed" into question. Why is the person doing the "good" to begin with...

As for Christians we do the good because God has purposed for us.

Ephesians 2:10
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

As you can see these are prepared by God. This is not to say we should not encourage one another unto good works, only to establish the source of the works. Yet from this I can not contend the unbeliever has the same motivator and or source. True enough those who do not believe can and do what mankind may call good, yet this does not make them "good."

Luke 18:19
19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

 

[aspen]

i tend to agree with you. i think my question for the Pope is, 'does the good that nonbelievers do because of God working through them ultimately sanctify them and transform them into citizens of Heaven'? if so, i would have to respectfully disagree with him until I receive more information. Right now, I do not believe in universal salvation, although I like the idea.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

i tend to agree with you. i think my question for the Pope is, 'does the good that nonbelievers do because of God working through them ultimately sanctify them and transform them into citizens of Heaven'? if so, i would have to respectfully disagree with him until I receive more information. Right now, I do not believe in universal salvation, although I like the idea.

Well we have to wonder about this verse:

For whenever the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things of the law, these, [although they] do not have the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written on their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts [one] after another accusing or even defending them on the day when God judges the secret things of people, according to my gospel, through Christ Jesus. Romans 2:14-16

Besides the bible, something tells me that GOD will be just.

 

[aspen]

Absolutely. He will also be triumphant. It is hard for me to imagine people rejecting God when they see Him, but it is even harder to imagine God failing to save everyone.

 

[Foreigner]

Aspen, you simply cannot keep your story straight.

You have said on this very board - on more than one occasion - that when sinners stand before God it will be such a terrifying and painful experience for them that they will actually be a relief for them when they are physically in hell.

As far as, "it is even harder to imagine God failing to save everyone"...as long as you choose not to believe what scripture says, it is easy to believe that.

Wrong, but easy.

 

[aspen]

yes. Hell is God's mercy. however, it is still hard to imagine that God doesn't triumph over every soul.

 

[Foreigner]

But that makes your statement "It is hard for me to imagine people rejecting God when they see Him" void of any value whatsoever.

If they are found to have their name in the Book of Life, then it won't be a matter of them accepting Him or rejecting Him.

And if they are damned then they won't receive the option of accepting or rejecting Christ. Their death has already decided that for them.

And your statement "but it is even harder to imagine God failing to save everyone" might be true - you would have difficulty imagining God not saving everyone.

But that is a shortcoming in your understanding of Scripture and who God is. Nothing more.

Scripture is very clear. If you are again stating that Scripture isn't really accurate then you are the one in for a surprise when you stand before Him.

My only hope is that you are not giving that misinformation to the lost.