Are Christians the biggest barrier to a renewed relationship with God?

[St. SteVen]

Sometimes when I am at church, I ask myself.
"Would you associate with these people if you were not part of the same fellowship?"
Some I would, but some I wouldn't. Why is that?

Oftentimes Christian society is so off-putting to the average person.
If a renewed relationship with God requires being like them, forget it.

We are called to be in the world but not of it.
It seems that many Christians are not in the world.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Sometimes when I am at church, I ask myself.
"Would you associate with these people if you were not part of the same fellowship?"
Some I would, but some I wouldn't. Why is that?

Oftentimes Christian society is so off-putting to the average person.
If a renewed relationship with God requires being like them, forget it.

We are called to be in the world but not of it.
It seems that many Christians are not in the world.

[

 

[IndianaRob]

Sometimes when I am at church, I ask myself.
"Would you associate with these people if you were not part of the same fellowship?"
Some I would, but some I wouldn't. Why is that?

Oftentimes Christian society is so off-putting to the average person.
If a renewed relationship with God requires being like them, forget it.

We are called to be in the world but not of it.
It seems that many Christians are not in the world.

[

I like what you said in the second post better than what you said in the first post.

 

[quietthinker]

Are Christians the biggest barrier to a renewed relationship with God?​

There are many barriers, the greatest being an unwilling heart.

 

[Windmill Charge]

Would you associate with these people if you were not part of the same fellowship?

The attraction should not be the people in a church, but the appeal of the truth that that church proclaims.

One of the amazing things about Christianity, seen in the epistles and in churches today, is the weird mix of people found there.
Intellectuals, high saleriy people, those who are not intellectual, those on basic wages, the beatuiful and the ugly meeting together over a common love for the truth.

it is how we share, express and demonstrate both this truth and its effects on how we live that is an inital attraction.

 

[St. SteVen]

Are Christians the biggest barrier to a renewed relationship with God?​

There are many barriers, the greatest being an unwilling heart.

The term "Hound of Heaven" comes to mind. If God pursues you, your will doesn't matter.
Granted, His timing is always perfect. I think C.S. Lewis testifies to being dragged into it. - LOL

What I am trying to address in this topic is how Christians and the church get in the way.
At times the church and Christians don't make a relationship with God very attractive.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

New topic

What's left after I have thrown everything away? (some may wonder)

Fair question. Obviously, I have discarded much of what the institutional church and evangelicalism has given us. So, what's left? Faith is left after you strip away all the unnecessary apologetic trimmings. In fact, I believe you can't have faith without doing that. So many Christians...

www.christianityboard.com

[

 

[quietthinker]

The term "Hound of Heaven" comes to mind. If God pursues you, your will doesn't matter.
Granted, His timing is always perfect. I think C.S. Lewis testifies to being dragged into it. - LOL

What I am trying to address in this topic is how Christians and the church get in the way.
At times the church and Christians don't make a relationship with God very attractive.

[

Yes, the 'church' and many who call themselves christians do make knowing God difficult but nevertheless God will use even the most improbable. Consider Balaam's donkey or Jesus reply to the religious leaders complaint on his entry into Jerusalem on a donkey, 'if these don't cry out, the very stones will'.

Again, it was made clear to Adam that eating of the forbidden tree would result in death. Adam resisted the will of God and chose his own. Yes, man's will did matter (one could make the case that it 'overpowered' God's will for him and his wife) and death resulted.

 

[St. SteVen]

Again, it was made clear to Adam that eating of the forbidden tree would result in death. Adam resisted the will of God and chose his own. Yes, man's will did matter (one could make the case that it 'overpowered' God's will for him and his wife) and death resulted.

My view is that A&E were deceived into eating thereof.
It wasn't their intention to eat and disobey God.

[

 

[quietthinker]

My view is that A&E were deceived into eating thereof.
It wasn't their intention to eat and disobey God.

[

Ahhhh, what a bugger! I once intended to drive home safely after having a few drinks and blow me down, my right hand turn across the carriageway was cut off by a driver who just magically appeared. The claim it wasn't my intention never held up and resulted in a mess of bent metal.

 

[St. SteVen]

Ahhhh, what a bugger! I once intended to drive home safely after having a few drinks and blow me down, my right hand turn across the carriageway was cut off by a driver who just magically appeared. The claim it wasn't my intention never held up and resulted in a mess of bent metal.

Not sure how the law works where you are, but here, if you hit someone, you are to blame.
If a car is dropped from the sky and you hit it, it's your fault. Unless you can prove some sort of negligence. (good luck)

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Not sure how the law works where you are, but here, if you hit someone, you are to blame.
If a car is dropped from the sky and you hit it, it's your fault. Unless you can prove some sort of negligence. (good luck)

But in the case of A&E, it seemed like a setup to me.

- God told Adam, don't eat, or you will die. (whatever that means)
- The tree was in the middle of the garden (orchard) where it couldn't be avoided. Why?
- Adam explained the situation to Eve, but added the don't touch rule.
- The serpent used that to his advantage.
- God didn't warn Adam about the serpent.
- The serpent addressed Eve while Adam observed.
- Adam failed to step in when he should have.
- Instead of refusing the fruit, he ate thereof.
- They both lost their minds as a result.
- We inherited their insanity.

[

 

[quietthinker]

Not sure how the law works where you are, but here, if you hit someone, you are to blame.
If a car is dropped from the sky and you hit it, it's your fault. Unless you can prove some sort of negligence. (good luck)

[

The madness of many defies reason or any rational.
Even while All are in Christ just as they are in Adam. Even while forgiveness is free and unasked for, many will choose death because the righteousness of Jesus (even for them) is not attractive or wanted.

God does not and will not force his will over the will of men. Just as Adam chose his destiny (from a position of perfect) and inherited his choice (death) so those who do not desire the company of untold billions made perfect (however they rationalise it) will reap what they have sown (deliberate choices), namely death.

Revelation 6:15-16 paints the picture of those who see The Lamb and God coming as wrathful (the mind twisting distortion they prefer) and would rather die than join their (God and Jesus) ranks.

 

[quietthinker]

But in the case of A&E, it seemed like a setup to me.

- God told Adam, don't eat, or you will die. (whatever that means)
- The tree was in the middle of the garden (orchard) where it couldn't be avoided. Why?
- Adam explained the situation to Eve, but added the don't touch rule.
- The serpent used that to his advantage.
- God didn't warn Adam about the serpent.
- The serpent addressed Eve while Adam observed.
- Adam failed to step in when he should have.
- Instead of refusing the fruit, he ate thereof.
- They both lost their minds as a result.
- We inherited their insanity.

[

We don't have a record but it is highly likely that A&E were informed by angels about the wily foe who would attempt seduce/ deceive and join his cause.

It is also unreasonable to assume that God left A&E on their own without warning.

From what we can deduce, large number of angels took the bait but other Worlds resisted him (Satan)

 

[St. SteVen]

The madness of many defies reason or any rational.
Even while All are in Christ just as they are in Adam. Even while forgiveness is free and unasked for, many will choose death because the righteousness of Jesus (even for them) is not attractive or wanted.

You probably know what I will say before I write it.
If life is offered, no one chooses death.
This is a common argument that justifies wrath against "undeserving" humankind.
As if God is not responsible for His actions because humankind is forcing His hand.

God does not and will not force his will over the will of men. Just as Adam chose his destiny (from a position of perfect) and inherited his choice (death) so those who do not desire the company of untold billions made perfect (however they rationalise it) will reap what they have sown (deliberate choices), namely death.

Same answer.
Why would the will of humankind (children created in God's image) supplant the will of God?

Adam had no knowledge of the far-reaching effects of his decision.
Nor did God inform him, other than to say that death was the penalty. (whatever that means)

Adam was smart enough to name all the animals. If he REALLY understood
the far-reaching effects of his decision, he wouldn't have done it. IMHO

[

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:

But in the case of A&E, it seemed like a setup to me.

- God told Adam, don't eat, or you will die. (whatever that means)
- The tree was in the middle of the garden (orchard) where it couldn't be avoided. Why?
- Adam explained the situation to Eve, but added the don't touch rule.
- The serpent used that to his advantage.
- God didn't warn Adam about the serpent.
- The serpent addressed Eve while Adam observed.
- Adam failed to step in when he should have.
- Instead of refusing the fruit, he ate thereof.
- They both lost their minds as a result.
- We inherited their insanity.

We don't have a record but it is highly likely that A&E were informed by angels about the wily foe who would attempt seduce/ deceive and join his cause.

It is also unreasonable to assume that God left A&E on their own without warning.

From what we can deduce, large number of angels took the bait but other Worlds resisted him (Satan)

Wow.
I would say that my bullet points above are biblically based.
Not sure where your points come from. Probably EGW?

[

 

[quietthinker]

St. SteVen said:

But in the case of A&E, it seemed like a setup to me.

- God told Adam, don't eat, or you will die. (whatever that means)
- The tree was in the middle of the garden (orchard) where it couldn't be avoided. Why?
- Adam explained the situation to Eve, but added the don't touch rule.
- The serpent used that to his advantage.
- God didn't warn Adam about the serpent.
- The serpent addressed Eve while Adam observed.
- Adam failed to step in when he should have.
- Instead of refusing the fruit, he ate thereof.
- They both lost their minds as a result.
- We inherited their insanity.

Wow.
I would say that my bullet points above are biblically based.
Not sure where your points come from. Probably EGW?

[

Do you find my previously stated point of view below unreasonable?

We don't have a record but it is highly likely that A&E were informed by angels about the wily foe who would attempt seduce/ deceive and join his cause.

It is also unreasonable to assume that God left A&E on their own without warning.

From what we can deduce, large number of angels took the bait but other Worlds resisted him (Satan)

 

[quietthinker]

You probably know what I will say before I write it.
If life is offered, no one chooses death.
This is a common argument that justifies wrath against "undeserving" humankind.
As if God is not responsible for His actions because humankind is forcing His hand.


Same answer.
Why would the will of humankind (children created in God's image) supplant the will of God?

Adam had no knowledge of the far-reaching effects of his decision.
Nor did God inform him, other than to say that death was the penalty. (whatever that means)

Adam was smart enough to name all the animals. If he REALLY understood
the far-reaching effects of his decision, he wouldn't have done it. IMHO

[

In a free Universe there is always the possibility of poor choice, otherwise it is not free. Lucifer made such a one and insisted on sticking to it.
Do we assume that God did not try to bring him around again? I can't imagine it; not if God is love....yet pride dictated his choices and continue to dictate them. We are told unequivocally how that results.

 

[St. SteVen]

Do you find my previously stated point of view below unreasonable?

We don't have a record but it is highly likely that A&E were informed by angels about the wily foe who would attempt seduce/ deceive and join his cause.

It is also unreasonable to assume that God left A&E on their own without warning.

From what we can deduce, large number of angels took the bait but other Worlds resisted him (Satan)

Not unreasonable, but certainly unbiblical.
Is there any indication in the Bible that your claims are true?

I don't mean to be insulting. If you believe these things to be true, then I accept that.
But I will say that I remain unconvinced. That may change if you provide more evidence.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

In a free Universe there is always the possibility of poor choice, otherwise it is not free. Lucifer made such a one and insisted on sticking to it.
Do we assume that God did not try to bring him around again? I can't imagine it; not if God is love....yet pride dictated his choices and continue to dictate them. We are told unequivocally how that results.

Poor choices and consequences? Yes, I agree.

No evidence that God pleaded with Lucifer to repent.
In fact, his fall was needed for the story of the redemption of humankind.
All part of the original plan. (the logos)

We can call these things choices, but I think it is part of the larger plan.
The redemption of humankind required a fall. A fall required a deception.
Satan fulfilled a role in that. And ultimately I believe he will be reinstated.
The ultimate triumph of grace. (love your enemies)

[