Are Christians to forgive everyone or only those who repent?

[DNB]

'for he lets his Sun shine on the good and bad alike'
Evil needs to be addressed, there is no question about that but we are talking about forgiveness; the two both have a context. By forgiving one does not sanction evil; it rises above it, neither does it close its eye to it's heinous nature.

You are unjustifiably separating the two. It is your actions that determine both whether or not you address the issue with a malefactor, or that you forgive them. How can you give both a different context? One will know by my actions if I've confronted someone about their sin, and whether or not I've forgiven them. The two facets within that one context, goes hand-in-hand.

For example, play it out for me how you would react to someone who just killed another. Explain to me how you would both address the crime with him, and exude your forgiveness? Do you call the police and have him incarcerated, or do you rebuke him and then invite him out for dinner or have him meet your friends? Let me see you put two and two together, and then tell me that there doesn't come a time where you just must treat them as a 'pagan or tax collector'? ...and, that that's the best remedy for their rehabilitation.

 

[shnarkle]

The pastor in our bible study remarked that we're called to forgive any offense, yet the following two verses seem to contradict one another and I wondered how others converged the two verses. The one verse does call us to forgive all offenses, yet the verse in Luke calls us to rebuke and seems to make forgiveness conditional upon whether someone repents or not.

Matthew 6:15

“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”

Luke 17:3

“Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.”

There's also that passage from Matthew where we read that "those sins you shall retain they are retained, those sins you shall loose, they are loosed" Many interpret this to mean that if one retains or looses someone's sins, then it has celestial approval, but this is not what that means at all. The reason being that the author is explicitly pointing out what will happen in the future, but also pointing out that within that future periphrastic it is in the past perfect preterit e.g. "are loosed"; "are retained". They are already loosed or retained by God, and the church must follow the pattern "on earth as it (already) is in heaven".

We can only forgive or retain the sins of others according to God's will. When God forgives someone, their sins are forgiven, and we acknowledge that fact. We follow God's pattern. We do not set the pattern, and then have God agree and approve of it.

 

[3rdAngel]

For me I think if we do not forgive people we give our power away and let those people who have wronged us have power over the way we feel and think. For me I think holding grudges and feelings of anger over another is not what God wants of his people. I think of the examples of JESUS and Steven as those around them sought to kill them. Just prior to them being killed they asked God to forgive them because those who were persecuting them did not know what they were doing. Sometimes I guess also we should remember God's Word. Jesus is our example. He prayed for us when we did not know what we were doing as did Steven. We wrestle not against flesh and blood but against princilalities and rulers of darkness in high places.

God bless

 

[Helen]

 

[quietthinker]

You are unjustifiably separating the two. It is your actions that determine both whether or not you address the issue with a malefactor, or that you forgive them. How can you give both a different context? One will know by my actions if I've confronted someone about their sin, and whether or not I've forgiven them. The two facets within that one context, goes hand-in-hand.

For example, play it out for me how you would react to someone who just killed another. Explain to me how you would both address the crime with him, and exude your forgiveness? Do you call the police and have him incarcerated, or do you rebuke him and then invite him out for dinner or have him meet your friends? Let me see you put two and two together, and then tell me that there doesn't come a time where you just must treat them as a 'pagan or tax collector'? ...and, that that's the best remedy for their rehabilitation.

I hear what you're saying DNB and I do not disagree. What I am saying is, forgiveness is a conscious choice; a choice that goes beyond and against natural instinct. The ability to forgive comes as gift to those who have experienced a higher principle of operation ie, those who have had an encounter with a loving God and taken it to heart. Personal hurts and and offences are closer to home than hypothetical public examples. It is easy to live in the realm of hypothesis. Of course we want justice but how often is our call for 'justice' a convenient blanket to justify our unforgiving attitude and desire for revenge.
If I want to know how God treats people, the whole Jesus event tells me a story that gives me hope....it draws me....it motivates me, it compels me to do for others what God has done for me. This cannot be understood solely in a head exercise. Without a heart connection this principle is foreign.

 

[shnarkle]

I hear what you're saying DNB and I do not disagree. What I am saying is, forgiveness is a conscious choice; a choice that goes beyond and against natural instinct. The ability to forgive comes as gift to those who have experienced a higher principle of operation ie, those who have had an encounter with a loving God and taken it to heart. Personal hurts and and offences are closer to home than hypothetical public examples. It is easy to live in the realm of hypothesis. Of course we want justice but how often is our call for 'justice' a convenient blanket to justify our unforgiving attitude and desire for revenge.
If I want to know how God treats people, the whole Jesus event tells me a story that gives me hope....it draws me....it motivates me, it compels me to do for others what God has done for me. This cannot be understood solely in a head exercise. Without a heart connection this principle is foreign.

Well put When I consider that I am worthy of nothing less than eternal damnation, it makes it difficult to start pointing fingers at anyone else. When the Spirit convicts me, and then reveals the gift of repentance, and the free gift of salvation, the forgiveness granted can only be extended to those who trespass against us..

 

[FHII]

But that's what reconciliation is, addressing the issue between the injured party and the guilty. Why would you advise someone to indiscriminately overlook an offense, like I said, consider how empowered the culprit would feel by this, ...or have I learned nothing over the years?
No one is talking about abuse or retaliation, but exposure and correction. If someone is abusive either verbally or physically, how in the world do you just forgive that? For what does that even mean, for example, if you see someone punch another in the face, do you go over to the aggressor and say, hey, let me buy you a drink? How would the victim feel, will he ask you 'are you pleased that he hit me?', and you say, 'no, but i forgave him for it'.
There comes a point where such wickedness cannot be tolerated, not without correction. And, understand something, this is not for your sake of one's pride or feelings, so that they can get over the grudge or bitterness, but for the principle, and sake of righteousness, and for the sake of eradicating the evil. No good will ever come from overlooking an offense, do your duty by confronting them and giving the offender an opportunity to repent, and if he doesn't, treat him accordingly, for he has shown contempt for the will of God.

Matthew 18:15-17
18:15. "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

If it's your brother, you are going to have to address the matter, of course. You have to be around them. Some minor things your brother does... Perhaps just letting them be would be wise. I am not going to call out a brother for every petty little thing they do.

As for non brethren... What I was getting at is moving on and not letting it affect you. Not saying continue being around them... Of course not. Best thing to do is tell God about it, and leave it with him.

God can take care of it better than you can.

 

[DNB]

I hear what you're saying DNB and I do not disagree. What I am saying is, forgiveness is a conscious choice; a choice that goes beyond and against natural instinct. The ability to forgive comes as gift to those who have experienced a higher principle of operation ie, those who have had an encounter with a loving God and taken it to heart. Personal hurts and and offences are closer to home than hypothetical public examples. It is easy to live in the realm of hypothesis. Of course we want justice but how often is our call for 'justice' a convenient blanket to justify our unforgiving attitude and desire for revenge.
If I want to know how God treats people, the whole Jesus event tells me a story that gives me hope....it draws me....it motivates me, it compels me to do for others what God has done for me. This cannot be understood solely in a head exercise. Without a heart connection this principle is foreign.

Very well said, QT, I think that many of the responders to this post are expressing what you just said. ...but, bear with me here, my contention was that I was hoping that this excercise would rise above the petty, immature and insecure feelings, that we all evoke often, in that we could separate the emotional aspect of the scenario, and just deal with the pragmatic. Yes, the strong, thick-skinned and the mature find it much easier to release themselves from the injury, and just address the principle of the crime. Which, is why I jumped to that aspect right away. Being aware of the forgiveness and grace that has been bestowed to us on behalf of Christ Jesus, empowers us both emotionally/defensively and proactively. But once we've gotten over, again, the petty and immature emotions, we still have a serious plague to deal with - sin.
That's all I'm saying, I didn't want this thread to be a therapeutic session about how people are to deal with their grievances and injuries, and yes, empathy with Christ & Steven are extremely effective ways to do that (i take myself there often). But rather, rising above the personal issues, I wanted to discuss how to thwart, and rehabilitate evil, i.e. making it about the culprit, not the victim. How does one impress upon the malefactor the egregious, hypocritical, cowardly and pathetic ways of his behaviour, and get him to reconsider his approach or attraction to sin, ...especially when he sees how effective he was in either making a gain, or injurying someone i.e. getting what he wanted? This is a profound issue, ...we're not talking about the victim's emotions here.
But, as you said QT, you do agree with the manner to address the aggressor, I just wanted people to realize that love and forgiveness has an austere facet to it also, it's not about the 'hear no evil, see no evil, say no evil' demeanor, sometimes very tough love is required.
Paul made Elymas go blind.

Thanks QT!

 

[DNB]

If it's your brother, you are going to have to address the matter, of course. You have to be around them. Some minor things your brother does... Perhaps just letting them be would be wise. I am not going to call out a brother for every petty little thing they do.

As for non brethren... What I was getting at is moving on and not letting it affect you. Not saying continue being around them... Of course not. Best thing to do is tell God about it, and leave it with him.

God can take care of it better than you can.

Of course, the corrigible you treat in one manner, even to the point of letting an indiscretion go unnoticed, I totally advocate that. But it is dealing with the incorrigible that either a Ghandi-like pacifist, or non-confrontationalist approach, is consequential for all involved.
But again, we're not prescribing an approach based on protecting one's emotions, are we? For, even someone who does not feel personally affected by an offense, has a duty to protest. If you witness someone abusing their spouse or children, do you just move on because your feelings are not involved, ...or just forgive them? God is the best judiciary of course, but there are sins of omission also, if you know what I mean?
To me, this is what this whole conversation is about, confronting a sinner and impressing on him the need to stop i.e. whether indiscriminate forgiveness is the best remedy, ...it's not about therapy for the victim?

 

[quietthinker]

Very well said, QT, I think that many of the responders to this post are expressing what you just said. ...but, bear with me here, my contention was that I was hoping that this excercise would rise above the petty, immature and insecure feelings, that we all evoke often, in that we could separate the emotional aspect of the scenario, and just deal with the pragmatic. Yes, the strong, thick-skinned and the mature find it much easier to release themselves from the injury, and just address the principle of the crime. Which, is why I jumped to that aspect right away. Being aware of the forgiveness and grace that has been bestowed to us on behalf of Christ Jesus, empowers us both emotionally/defensively and proactively. But once we've gotten over, again, the petty and immature emotions, we still have a serious plague to deal with - sin.
That's all I'm saying, I didn't want this thread to be a therapeutic session about how people are to deal with their grievances and injuries, and yes, empathy with Christ & Steven are extremely effective ways to do that (i take myself there often). But rather, rising above the personal issues, I wanted to discuss how to thwart, and rehabilitate evil, i.e. making it about the culprit, not the victim. How does one impress upon the malefactor the egregious, hypocritical, cowardly and pathetic ways of his behaviour, and get him to reconsider his approach or attraction to sin, ...especially when he sees how effective he was in either making a gain, or injurying someone i.e. getting what he wanted? This is a profound issue, ...we're not talking about the victim's emotions here.
But, as you said QT, you do agree with the manner to address the aggressor, I just wanted people to realize that love and forgiveness has an austere facet to it also, it's not about the 'hear no evil, see no evil, say no evil' demeanor, sometimes very tough love is required.
Paul made Elymas go blind.

Thanks QT!

Solomon says a wise man will hear a rebuke but the only thing a fool hears is the rod.....yeah, I think some need a beating..... While saying that I cannot see myself executing a beating unless its spontaneous self defence action.....and even then, that sits very uncomfortably with me.

 

[Waiting on him]

View attachment 8092

Strength is power under control.

 

[DNB]

Solomon says a wise man will hear a rebuke but the only thing a fool hears is the rod.....yeah, I think some need a beating..... While saying that I cannot see myself executing a beating unless its spontaneous self defence action.....and even then, that sits very uncomfortably with me.

Great quote, and, agreed with your final comment, ....plus, I don't believe in corporal punishment, that is why I personally have always taken 'rod' figuratively eg: rebuking, ostracizing, remaining silent but stern, ignoring, etc.. it all confronts the crime, and sends both the message of disapproval and an intimation that it won't be tolerated and must stop, ...at the pain of complete avoidance and ostracization, until corrected (always willing to forgive).

...funny, i just noticed your avatar, and the fact that i said to you '...it's not about hear no evil, see no evil, say no evil...' No allusion there whatsoever! lol
Thanks QT!

 

[FHII]

If you witness someone abusing their spouse or children, do you just move on because your feelings are not involved,

Well you call the police then. Simple. I am not saying overlook a crime. But on that you can forgive them, but they still have to answer for a crime. Heck, I would even step in an fight if necessary.

But again, we're not prescribing an approach based on protecting one's emotions, are we?

Well yea... At least I am. What I am talking about is holding grudges, wrath, vendetta's and bitterness. Let that stuff go. Don't have dealings with the wicked, but don't let their transgressions consume you.

So if you are talking about lawbreakers and those doing physical or severe psychological abuse to others, I say have them put away.

I'm talking about the everyday drama and BS (apologies... There's just no other better way to put it) that beats people down.

 

[DNB]

Well you call the police then. Simple. I am not saying overlook a crime. But on that you can forgive them, but they still have to answer for a crime. Heck, I would even step in an fight if necessary.

Well yea... At least I am. What I am talking about is holding grudges, wrath, vendetta's and bitterness. Let that stuff go. Don't have dealings with the wicked, but don't let their transgressions consume you.

So if you are talking about lawbreakers and those doing physical or severe psychological abuse to others, I say have them put away.

I'm talking about the everyday drama and BS (apologies... There's just no other better way to put it) that beats people down.

Well then, yes, if that's the issue at hand, then I would agree with almost all of what you stated above (I didn't get the 1st sentence?). Emulating Stephen & Jesus is the best remedy for that. Like I said in a previous post, I have to remind myself of this often for such an issue, ...but i perceive this as a shortcoming on my part, an unsound insecurity...

...but again, what a shame that someone actually perceives a wicked act as injurious, this is one of the reasons why Jesus said, turn the other cheek, that is, the feeble and desperate insults of an aggressor should never affect a wise and innocent person (ideally). Would Jesus prescribe such an approach if he was concerned of the victim's feelings, i.e. telling them to get hurt even more? He clearly doesn't even consider the feelings an issue, as it should not be, as his concern was as mine, dealing solely with the culprit. This is why I avoided making it the point of the thread (despite it being a real sentiment of many victims, including myself).

People, my point to all this is that it is more shameful to be the culprit, than to be the victim. I would feel more embarrassed to tell someone that I stole something, than that I had something stolen eg; due to naivety. This is why coming from that standpoint in a topic about forgiveness, is misguided. Injury, if at all (which it shouldn't be), is very subjective, and should not define the proper understanding of how and why to apply forgiveness.

But sorry FHII, I may have belaboured the issue, I truly feel that we may be talking about the exact same thing, as I agree with basically everything that you said. My only contention was where to put the focus on, and why.
Thanks!

 

[Heart2Soul]

For me I think if we do not forgive people we give our power away and let those people who have wronged us have power over the way we feel and think. For me I think holding grudges and feelings of anger over another is not what God wants of his people. I think of the examples of JESUS and Steven as those around them sought to kill them. Just prior to them being killed they asked God to forgive them because those who were persecuting them did not know what they were doing. Sometimes I guess also we should remember God's Word. Jesus is our example. He prayed for us when we did not know what we were doing as did Steven. We wrestle not against flesh and blood but against princilalities and rulers of darkness in high places.

God bless

This is exactly what I think....carrying the burden of unforgiveness towards someone who hurt you keeps you bound to them through the memory of it. Also, anger and bitterness can rise up because hurt tends to turn to anger if not addressed ...then anger into bitterness.

 

[3rdAngel]

This is exactly what I think....carrying the burden of unforgiveness towards someone who hurt you keeps you bound to them through the memory of it. Also, anger and bitterness can rise up because hurt tends to turn to anger if not addressed ...then anger into bitterness.

Carrying on from the other post in relation to JESUS and Steven and how they prayed for those who persecuted and killed them, I like the scriptures from JESUS that also says...

Matthew 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which spitefully use you, and persecute you

I think also if we struggre to forgive others praying for them helps us to forgive them and help us to realise we are in a spiritual warfare and are not fighting against flesh and blood but spiritual wickedness in high places. Many do not know what they are doing. Jesus is our example here as is His Word and we should believe and follow him

Nice to see your wearing your armour sister

 

[Heart2Soul]

Carrying on from the other post in relation to JESUS and Steven and how they prayed for those who persecuted and killed them, I like the scriptures from JESUS that also says...

Matthew 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which spitefully use you, and persecute you

I think also if we struglre to forgive others praying for them also helps us to forgive them and help us to realise we are in a spiritual warfare and are not fighting against flesh and blood but spiritual wickedness in high places. Many do not know what they are doing.

Nice to see your wearing your armour sister

And you are wearing yours! I agree....I have come to the place in my life....FINALLY.....that I quit being so easily offended by others, and I also quit being angry at those who caused hardships for me through lies and such and they didn't suffer any consequences....in other words, I was never vindicated nor was there any justice brought against them....(that I know of anyway)....i really struggled with that one for sure.
There was one case in which I had to pray and ask God to help me forgive them...I could say it in words but in my heart the unforgiveness was still there. Eventually He gave me the ability to forgive that person completely.

 

[3rdAngel]

And you are wearing yours! I agree....I have come to the place in my life....FINALLY.....that I quit being so easily offended by others, and I also quit being angry at those who caused hardships for me through lies and such and they didn't suffer any consequences....in other words, I was never vindicated nor was there any justice brought against them....(that I know of anyway)....i really struggled with that one for sure.
There was one case in which I had to pray and ask God to help me forgive them...I could say it in words but in my heart the unforgiveness was still there. Eventually He gave me the ability to forgive that person completely.

You know sometimes I guess we all get tempted to be upset by others I guess. We do not have to give into the temptations. I like this topic and think it is a good one for consideration. Sometimes we can wonder about all the injustices in the world and even against us personally and wonder why people seem to get away with doing the things they do. It is usually as JESUS and Steven prayed. "They do not know what they do". They are being controlled by powers they do not understand. I believe we need to pray for them because if they continue down this path they will lose their salvation. No one get's away with anything in life. We all will stand before the judgment seat of Christ but at that time if we have not given our lives to JESUS and sought God's forgiveness by faith, it will be too late for those who did not know what they were doing and choose to turn away from God and His Word.

God bless