Context: I was talking about believing your beliefs are correct and being called to share the Gospel.
Are Jehovah's witnesses real Christians?
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Hi Jane
Thank you for your kind words regarding my testimony. My response was really connected to something Aunty jane said with regards to claiming that the JW’s were the only ones that did door to door, and she often uses that as a basis for claiming they are the one true church.
Interestingly I never thought I was in the one true physical church because I always saw the church as being anyone who is in Christ.
I am finding Micah Wilders testimony really interesting.
Xx
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Yes it is , but don't let keeping verses in thneir context bother you. After all you are a JW and they are notorious for ripping verses out of context to falsely apply them elsewhere.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
You must have missed the undeniable facts of true God worship history, they are as follows, i hope they help you see reality
From Moses on up until this very day, the Israelite religion-teach, serve and worship the Abrahamic God= a single being God=YHWH(Jehovah)-thus when Jesus attended those places of worship was taught, served and worshipped that single being God as was every bible writer.
The new Catholic encyclopedia-1967, Vol XIV, Page 299-- The formulation one God in three persons, was not established, certainly not assimilated into christian life and its profession of faith, prior till the end of the 4th century. Among the apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective--( of God being a trinity)
And the fact-no trinity God was taught at a council until 381 at the council of Constantinople--God changed by satans will to mislead all following it to not enter Gods kingdom. Those are breaking Gods #1 commandment daily.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
No, if you kepot my words in their context, you would have seen I was euphemistically using it for my constant mispelling of "the".
It also is a religion with a denominational structure. So please every church needs to be a legal entity. YOur churches or kingdom halls get their marching orders from teh new HQ buidling in NY and you have a Pres. and a board of elders etc. YOu are a church.
And bible believing followerts of Jesus are "Jesus Witnesses" in obedience to His command!
So you admit you are too stupid to understand teh Bible yourself? I think then for mercy on your sake, you should end all conversations here, For if you cannot pick up a bible and follow God from His Inspired Word alone- you really shouldn't be here.
And the reason why Christendom is messed up- is because wolves snuck and and secretly introduced false doctrine, Just like Jesus and Paul said would happen! Imagine that even this mess was known to happen.
Last time I checked it was over 12,000 and counting. Yes the external form of Christendom is a total mess, but the true believers found within that mess are unified, even if we don ot agree on all points. And your abysmal understanding of church history has led you to believe another Watchtower lie that the RCC was responsible for many biblical doctrines. They were in effect long before Rome became the centralized location.
And that faithful discreet slave class is hiogwash! The Watchtower took a parable and made it this immense false doctrine. They have even outdone the RCC which they modelled their harsh structure. to disobey say like celebrating thanksgiving- disfellowshps you , and as they hav ewrwote to be disfellowshipped is to lose your salvation!
It is too bad you do not trust teh ord of God and have substituted th eWatchtower prinitngs as the infallible word of God. And yes you have, for if they reintepret a scripture you will accept their reinterpretation as teh genuine article. They outdo Rome in their allegorical reinterpreting of Gods Word.
Yes you follow the big lies of Arius! Jesus the human was begotten. Jesus the God was not begotten! Jesus has two natures, God and man! Teh biblew says so without reinterpreting it to say something else.
Jesus is the name given to the Son of God who is Yahweh of Hosts when He took on flesh! It wasx not always HIs name. It is His name now! As the glorious God man who physically rose from teh dead and physically ascended into heaven!
And yes God is one- the Hebrew "echad" which is also defined as a plural one.
Like if you have a husband and one child- you are three and yet you are also one!
IOrrelavent comment. NOw you are imposing your own limitations and rules rules on how the God head should act! The bible says it so it is! Any commentary after that is mere human resoning.
Another irrelavent comment. Yes the church(kingdom of god) became a habitat for every foul bird as Jesus said would happen in the parables. The reformation was Gods doing.
Once again you show your complete lack of understanding chruch history and the massiv eupheaval in doctrine the reformation did.
It took an organization which controlled its people (like the watchtower does). And set them free from teh yoke of utalitarian religious structure. Teh Watchtower has done that even as the RCC is crumbling.
It did away with hideous doctrines and brought the Scriptures to light once again! If a person was caught reading the bible on their own, they were excommunicated. Rome taught the bible was an organizational book and could only be understood by the organization!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sound familiar??? It should it is what the Watchtower has taught the indoctrinated for decades now
god sword says that His Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path!!!! The watchtower teaches that the bible alone will put you in darkness and just reading Watchtower material alone will put you in the light!
.
end part 1
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Part 2
“Thus the Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization, not to individuals, regardless of how sincerely they may believe that they can interpret the Bible. For this reason the Bible cannot be properly understood without Jehovah’s visible organization in mind.” (The Watchtower, October 1, 1967, p. 587)
We all need help to understand the Bible, and we cannot find the Scriptural guidance we need outside the ‘faithful and discreet slave’ organization.” (The Watchtower, February 15, 1981, p. 19)
“Does ‘the faithful and discreet slave’ [Watchtower organization] endorse independent groups of Witnesses who meet together to engage in Scriptural research or debate? (Matt. 24:45, 47). No, it does not. And yet, in various parts of the world, a few associates of our organization have formed groups to do independent research on Bible-related subjects. Some have pursued an independent group study of Biblical Hebrew and Greek so as to analyze the accuracy of the New World Translation. … They have also held conferences and produced publications to present their findings and to supplement what is provided at our Christian meetings and through our literature. … Thus, ‘the faithful and discreet slave’ does not endorse any literature, meetings, or Web sites that are not produced or organized under its oversight … For those who wish to do extra Bible study and research, we recommend that they explore Insight on the Scriptures, All Scripture Is Inspired of God and Beneficial, and our other publications.” (Kingdom Ministry, September 2007, p. 3)
“Furthermore, not only do we find that people cannot see the divine plan in studying the Bible by itself, but we see, also, that if anyone lays the SCRIPTURE STUDIES aside, even after he has used them, after he has become familiar with them, after he has read them for ten years—if he then lays them aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone, though he has understood his Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness.” (The Watch Tower, September 15, 1910, p. 298, Watchtower Reprints, p. 4685)
They believe only themselves can be saved!
"In effect, Jesus also conveys Jehovah’s voice to us as he directs the congregation through “the faithful and discreet slave.” (Matt. 24:45) We need to take this guidance and direction seriously, for our everlasting life depends on our obedience." Watchtower 2014 Aug 15 p.21"During the final period of the ancient world that perished in the Flood, Noah was a faithful preacher of righteousness. (2 Peter 2:5) In these last days of the present system of things, Jehovah's people are making known God's righteous standards and are declaring good news about the possibility of surviving into the new world. (2 Peter 3:9-13) Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah's universal organization." Watchtower 2006 May 15 p.22 "Are You Prepared for Survival?""Is it presumptuous of Jehovah's Witnesses to point out that they alone have God's backing? Actually, no more so than when the Israelites in Egypt claimed to have God's backing in spite of the Egyptians' belief, or when the first-century Christians claimed to have God's backing to the exclusion of Jewish religionists." Watchtower 2001 Jun 1 p.16"Similarly, Jehovah is using only one organization today to accomplish his will. To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it." Watchtower 1983 Feb 15 p.12
Teh Watchtower has taken the most totalitarian parts of the RCC in its old days and usaes them like a club on its people.
The Watchtower is another cult like so many others, where the leadership by implication say they sit on god saplace and to not obey them is to not obey God! they are defacto little gods.
The RCC
The Watchtower
Branch Davidians
Peoples Temple (Jim Jones)
Father Divine
Sun Yung Moon and others.
“Thus the Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization, not to individuals, regardless of how sincerely they may believe that they can interpret the Bible. For this reason the Bible cannot be properly understood without Jehovah’s visible organization in mind.” (The Watchtower, October 1, 1967, p. 587)
We all need help to understand the Bible, and we cannot find the Scriptural guidance we need outside the ‘faithful and discreet slave’ organization.” (The Watchtower, February 15, 1981, p. 19)
“Does ‘the faithful and discreet slave’ [Watchtower organization] endorse independent groups of Witnesses who meet together to engage in Scriptural research or debate? (Matt. 24:45, 47). No, it does not. And yet, in various parts of the world, a few associates of our organization have formed groups to do independent research on Bible-related subjects. Some have pursued an independent group study of Biblical Hebrew and Greek so as to analyze the accuracy of the New World Translation. … They have also held conferences and produced publications to present their findings and to supplement what is provided at our Christian meetings and through our literature. … Thus, ‘the faithful and discreet slave’ does not endorse any literature, meetings, or Web sites that are not produced or organized under its oversight … For those who wish to do extra Bible study and research, we recommend that they explore Insight on the Scriptures, All Scripture Is Inspired of God and Beneficial, and our other publications.” (Kingdom Ministry, September 2007, p. 3)
“Furthermore, not only do we find that people cannot see the divine plan in studying the Bible by itself, but we see, also, that if anyone lays the SCRIPTURE STUDIES aside, even after he has used them, after he has become familiar with them, after he has read them for ten years—if he then lays them aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone, though he has understood his Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness.” (The Watch Tower, September 15, 1910, p. 298, Watchtower Reprints, p. 4685)
They believe only themselves can be saved!
"In effect, Jesus also conveys Jehovah’s voice to us as he directs the congregation through “the faithful and discreet slave.” (Matt. 24:45) We need to take this guidance and direction seriously, for our everlasting life depends on our obedience." Watchtower 2014 Aug 15 p.21"During the final period of the ancient world that perished in the Flood, Noah was a faithful preacher of righteousness. (2 Peter 2:5) In these last days of the present system of things, Jehovah's people are making known God's righteous standards and are declaring good news about the possibility of surviving into the new world. (2 Peter 3:9-13) Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah's universal organization." Watchtower 2006 May 15 p.22 "Are You Prepared for Survival?""Is it presumptuous of Jehovah's Witnesses to point out that they alone have God's backing? Actually, no more so than when the Israelites in Egypt claimed to have God's backing in spite of the Egyptians' belief, or when the first-century Christians claimed to have God's backing to the exclusion of Jewish religionists." Watchtower 2001 Jun 1 p.16"Similarly, Jehovah is using only one organization today to accomplish his will. To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it." Watchtower 1983 Feb 15 p.12
Teh Watchtower has taken the most totalitarian parts of the RCC in its old days and usaes them like a club on its people.
The Watchtower is another cult like so many others, where the leadership by implication say they sit on god saplace and to not obey them is to not obey God! they are defacto little gods.
The RCC
The Watchtower
Branch Davidians
Peoples Temple (Jim Jones)
Father Divine
Sun Yung Moon and others.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
And I do not disagree with that fact in the least!
But even the Apostle John declared that Jesus is equal to the Father in His gospel! That also is a biblical fact. And we worship teh Father and Son! That also is a biblical fact.
tha twhole Watchtower horse manure about worship vs. obeisance is just that- horse manure. That is just another way of saying worship! But once again do not let rules of grammar get in your way of swallowing the camels of watchtower lies to strain at gnats!
Jesus commanded us to honour Him in teh exact same way we honor the Father. JOhn called him god,Paul called Him god and Jesus called Himself God- case closed!
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Just to be clear...once more so that you can comprehend what I say.....
“The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society” is a legal entity for the production and distribution of Bibles and Bible literature.
“Jehovah’s Witnesses” are a legally recognised religious body that is established all over the world.
There are two legally registered bodies.....we are not the Watchtower....OK?
According to Isaiah 43:10, Jehovah has always had his Witnesses, appointed by him to promote the truth of his word. Here you are nit-picking and saying that we should be “Jesus Witnesses” and yet you believe that he is Yahweh! Make up your mind.
But...do you know why God needs ‘witnesses’ in the first place?
It is because of the great legal case that has been conducted against the devil since his defection in Eden, where he slandered the true God and suggested that the humans would be better off knowing good and evil for themselves. Was he right?
Satan is called “the adversary” because he is the accuser here. This adversary is bent on proving that God lied to humankind when he placed reasonable limits on their freedom, saying that such limits were not in their best interests. So the devil had to furnish his witnesses and Jehovah would provide his in his defence.
Hebrews 12:1...speaks of a “great cloud of witnesses” who were to run the race set before them in faith. And since the ones who are on the road to life are “few”, the witnesses for Jehovah’s defence are not in the majority. You keep ignoring this very important point. The devil has the majority in that case. If you are part of the majority....then perhaps you need to think again....
No...”stupid” would be in assuming that God has no control over his worshippers. It would indeed be “stupid” to imagine that all those who decide for themselves what to believe just by reading the Bible, can somehow dodge the devil’s influence....he is the one who promoted freedom of worship in a person’s own mind. But all of God’s worshippers are to be “slaves” of one Master....”freedom” in that case is a dangerous place to be and hence the reason why God formed his people Israel into a nation with strict laws and principles to guide and direct them....and to protect them from destructive outside influences that might seem right, but as with Eve, were life threatening.
There was never any freedom to believe as you wish....that is satan’s ‘weedy’ religion. It has the illusion of freedom but it’s a misguided mish-mash of human thinking that leads people away from Jehovah. Without Jehovah guiding his people through his duly appointed “Mediator” we would have no approach to Jehovah at all. (John 6:44, 65) There are only two roads and we have to choose the right one.
And without the “faithful slave” there is no program for spiritual feeding. It’s not a buffet and never was. There are only two tables at which to feed. (1 Corinthians 10:21)
Please show us where the Bible says that Jesus is a God/man? There are so many reasons why he could NOT be what Christendom claims....but let’s see your biblical proof....
Again, show us the scripture that says “Jesus is Yahweh”....a direct statement will suffice.
Please show us how a son can at the same time, be his own father....:smlhmm:
And then perhaps show us how a fleshly body can exist in a spirit realm.....? Flesh can only be mortal....as Jesus himself showed us. He could not have died if he was immortal. He was resurrected as a spirit. (1 Peter 3:18)
Do you always fail to address a point of argument by dismissing it as “irrelevant”?
Please answer the questions with scripture, since we need the Bible to back up what we say. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)
I think you fail to see what God permits, as opposed to what he causes to take place....
Don’t look now, but the nation of Israel was also a very organised people who were under obligation to adhere to God’s clearly stated commands.....under penalty. As soon as you introduce freedom of thought, you then have freedom of action, and God’s laws are blantantly disregarded. This then describes Christendom. Satan is a mimic, so “the church” sought to replicate God’s organisational arrangement in Israel (complete with a priesthood special garments and grand temples) but with the devil as its leader in the person of the Pope. (The fake “Father” of the fake religion) Her daughters broke away with the reformation, but took much of their mother’s dirty laundry with them.
Well, it did one good thing....it gave the people God’s word to read for themselves....but did it unite the Christians? They have never been more divided than they are now! The buffet was spread and people could ‘doctrine shop’ to formulate their ‘very own religion’ if they wished. They could follow anyone who wanted to set up their own church. Is that what Jesus promoted?
All original Christians were taught the same truths and no one was permitted to substitute their own ideas....yet satan knew how to get to them through his tried and tested methods....enslave them with false beliefs and watch them separate from the true God and make their own ‘golden calves’.
It did that because again, satan is a mimic....it sounds familiar because that is how God expected his nation to live....according to his instructions, administered through his appointed representatives. How many ways does Christendom ignore God’s explicit instructions through the teachings of his son?
Would you like a list?
I’ll address you other post later.....
Keiw
Well-Known Member
John called Jesus god small g-means has godlike qualities it is not calling him the God. Paul never called him God, Jesus never claimed to be God. Obesiance is 100% correct, otherwise your religion would have to teach--God has a God, and we all know that is impossible. same at John1:1 in plain english your second line would read-And God was with God= impossible. You just fail to use reasoning God gave you. Same at Rev 1:1 a revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to him, did God say-Here me have a revelation. No its 2 different beings, one is God, one is Jesus.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
Gods view of what a cult differs from your view--His view is- a house divided(34,000 trinity religions) will not stand----You can take it to the bank. Strange that this true mark-1Cor 1:10- Unity of thought( all of Gods 1 truth,) no division. What doesn't your 34,000 different trinity religions understand about that simple bible milk? I know 10 year olds who understand it. The JW,s understand it and live by it and accomplish it. You think i say these things to be harsh, but i say them because they are fact. LOOK
Triumph1300
Well-Known Member
Keiw
Well-Known Member
A poster said wikipedia stated that number. I looked in wikipedia, i found list after list of religions that are trinity based all throughout the world. If its actually that high of a number i dont know, The fact remains, Jesus is with 1 single religion. There is no division in his religion-1Cor 1:10
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Just to be clear.....I have to ask, in view of Paul’s words at 1 Corinthians 1:10...
“Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.” (KJV)
....can we all believe different things and be at odds with each other and still lay claim to being a disciple of the one Lord Jesus? What doe he say about this? (Matthew 7:21-23) Will all who claim to be Christians make the grade? What is the criteria? On what basis are we ALL judged?
JW’s believe what the scriptures tell us.....not finding excuses to force God’s word to say what the Bible writers never intended....not trying to prop up false doctrines with misinterpreted scripture.
So....either Jesus is “God Yahweh” or he is “the son of God” as he himself said he was. There is no “God the Son” in a single passage of scripture. And the meaning of “theos” in Greek can pertain to any God-like being or to one who has divine authorisation. (John 10:31-36)
Yahweh is either “one God” or he is three gods in one entity.....the Bible is clear about how many “God” is. (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:5-6)
Either there is an immortal soul that departs from the body at death (or in the case of LDS belief, that souls exist before birth).....or death is opposite of life....a cessation of it with the promise of a resurrection, which is a restoration of life rather than a continuation of it. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10; John 5:28-29)
Either God tortures souls in hellfire eternally, or he simply abandons the wicked in never ending death.
(Matthew 10:28) What does “destroyed” mean?
Scripturally, Christendom’s doctrines do not have a leg to stand on, and for the LDS to provide a sequel to God’s word and treat it as scripture, written by someone who claims to be a prophet without any proof that he was, I can allow the readers here to judge for themselves what God’s word says.
There is only one truth and Christ’s genuine disciples not only teach it, but live it in their daily lives.
Being a Christian means more than merely being a good person and doing good to others.....it also means NOT doing what God’s word condemns....which to us is equally important.
Triumph1300
Well-Known Member
So, why did you post it.
You are just guessing, something JW's accuse others of when discussing their "organization".
Notice I call it an organization, not a Christian organization.
(And btw, everybody can write on Wikipedia.
Just because something is written on there does not mean it's the truth.)
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Triumph1300
Well-Known Member
Quote: Anyone outside of the JW group will perish.
So, every human being who was on the face of the earth before the JW's were established (second half of the 1800's) will perish?
Get behind me satan!
So, every human being who was on the face of the earth before the JW's were established (second half of the 1800's) will perish?
Get behind me satan!
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well the Watchtower is th epublishing arm of the JW's and the JW's are the religious arm of the Watchtower. You can play with the woirds all you want but everyone knows better.
According to Isaiah 43:10, Jehovah has always had his Witnesses, appointed by him to promote the truth of his word. Here you are nit-picking and saying that we should be “Jesus Witnesses” and yet you believe that he is Yahweh! Make up your mind.
But...do you know why God needs ‘witnesses’ in the first place?
It is because of the great legal case that has been conducted against the devil since his defection in Eden, where he slandered the true God and suggested that the humans would be better off knowing good and evil for themselves. Was he right?
Satan is called “the adversary” because he is the accuser here. This adversary is bent on proving that God lied to humankind when he placed reasonable limits on their freedom, saying that such limits were not in their best interests. So the devil had to furnish his witnesses and Jehovah would provide his in his defence.
Hebrews 12:1...speaks of a “great cloud of witnesses” who were to run the race set before them in faith. And since the ones who are on the road to life are “few”, the witnesses for Jehovah’s defence are not in the majority. You keep ignoring this very important point. The devil has the majority in that case. If you are part of the majority....then perhaps you need to think again....
No god needs witnesses to share about Jesus to tell people the good news of salvation Jesus paid for by HIs death and physical resurrection.
Christendom is certainly divided, but Christians are not!
So Satan did it first and according to you and
God caught up with it with the Jehovah's Witnesses? there was no JW like cult until the late 19th century at all in church History. Just the early church which was intensely unorganized as a "church" and then Rome consolidated, then the reformation.
And what Christendom does or doesn't so is irrelevant. It is what followers of Jesus do that matters. And we are found in all denominations.
Once again your amazing ignorance of church history is bright like a super nova!!!!
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Just like He called the God with a small g. Caps were not commonly used in the manuscripts, unless it was an uncial manuscript which was all caps. So you are in error here.
Plain English is not in question here! It is the Greek. and theos in all cases in John 1:1 are in the same form and construct so MUST be pronounced or translated the same!
Well the bible teaches that God the Son has a God- His Father. both are equal in divinity but different in position within the godhead! That is the bible.
Well christendom will not stand simply because for the most part they are apostate as organizations. But teh church is not an organization or sect, but an organism.
You push hard about the UNITY of JW's, but it is a unity based on false doctrine . Even the devil anbd his demons are united and they have false doctrine as well.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
There is list after list of different named trinity based religions on wikipedia. 2 make a house divided they will not stand.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
You are sadly mistaken sir. The teachings of Jesus in every translation on earth are with the JW,s and no others how do you explain that, i can explain it for you---You dont know what he actually teaches but then think you can speak for him. It doesnt work.
Triumph1300
Well-Known Member
As I said before, Wikipedia is not an authority on ANYTHING.
It's a place where anybody can post.
And actually what is your big deal?
Here's a big deal:
The important thing is this:
Repent and believe in Jesus Christ for what He did on the cross for you and you will be saved by God's grace.
Accept the free gift.
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