Are Jehovah's witnesses real Christians?

[JohnPaul]

That's the way it works these day, Grailhuinter.
When one disagrees you are right away classified as a "hater".
Not just in religious circles, it's the same in politics these days.
They will use the "hate card". Sad! That's how satan works as well.

I agree Triumph1300, also the race card. If you speak against what the liberal left believe and adore, such as gay rights and the whole LGTBQ+ thing, you are a hater, if a person of color gets caught committing a crime and is punished for it, it's because of their color or ethnicity, not the crime they committed.

 

[Rita]

@JohnPaul
Perhaps it would have been clearer if you had not included my post in the comment xx
My response was in context of the quote and response from you, I apologise x

 

[JohnPaul]

@JohnPaul
Perhaps it would have been clearer if you had not included my post in the comment xx
My response was in context of the quote and response from you, I apologise x

Rita no apologies ever needed from you, I hold you in the highest regard, I’m the one who apologizes, I should have been more clearer, my response to Aunty Jane was not regarding your post, I know it must look that way, but in all honesty it was not towards you Rita, sorry for the confusion I hold you with the highest esteem and regards Rita.

 

[Rita]

Rita no apologies ever needed from you, I hold you in the highest regard, I’m the one who apologizes, I should have been more clearer, my response to Aunty Jane was not regarding your post, I know it must look that way, but in all honesty it was not towards you Rita, sorry for the confusion I hold you with the highest esteem and regards Rita.

You are very kind Paul, but in reality I can mess up like anyone else can xxxx

 

[JohnPaul]

You are very kind Paul, but in reality I can mess up like anyone else can xxxx

We all can Rita, that’s what makes us human.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Even your bible--shows clearly, he became better than the angels after he inherited that name. Majesty means Jesus' superior, it was he who made the name Jesus above other names. It was he who gave Jesus the authority in heaven and on earth. Only one superior can give another authority.

And that is referring to His humanity. Not Hios preexistence as Yahweh of Hosts and the second person of the godhead. People need to read carefully when they about teh person of Jesus. Sometimes it refers to His humanity and sometimes to His divinity.

 

[Triumph1300]

The only time people get classified as 'haters' is when they slander us without knowing if what they are saying is even true.....they just parrot off what they are told and it doesn't seem to matter if it is just one biased side of a story.

Well, there you go.
Any one in disagreement with you is a "hater" and a "slanderer"
Thanks for confirming my previous post.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The Watchtower is a Bible Society. It has never claimed infallibility. It is a legal entity that just prints Bibles and literature. It is the Bible that teaches us...it contains all we need to know about God and his son.

It is a global religion and you and i both know that. so let us stop hiding behind legal triockery.

If it is just the bible that teaches you- then put away teh watchtower material and tell teh ministerial elders you are only going to study from the bible for a year- Watch how fast you will be disfellowshipped.

“From time to time, there have arisen from among the ranks of Jehovah’s people those, who, like the original Satan, have adopted an independent, faultfinding attitude... They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such ‘Bible reading,’ they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentators by Christendom’s clergy were teaching 100 years ago...” (Watchtower, August 15, 1981)


IMAGINE THAT!!!!!!!!! reading Gods Inspired Word alone will lead you into believing the doctrines of Christianity! From th emouth of the Watchtower itself!!!!!!!

No wonder why from the period of the vanquishing of Arius of Alexandria to the birth of the international bible Students followers of Jesus believed in the trinity and other things the Watchtower calls apostate doctrines! they found them from reading the Bible!!!!!!

 

[Triumph1300]

they just parrot off what they are told and it doesn't seem to matter if it is just one biased side of a story.

Yes, like reading the Watchtower. ;-)
And other JW material contradicting the Gospel Of Jesus Christ.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So you can ignore all the passages that say Jesus came from heaven as God’s “only begotten son” just so that you can pretend that it doesn’t mean what it says. Are you hearing yourself?

NO I accept those 100% as concerning HIs humanity.

But as to touching His preexistence- I accept 100% these verse as well!

John 1
King James Version

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Before He came to earth as Emmanuel ( god with us), He exisrted in the very form or nature of God! Not angel or cherub or seraph but God.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

You can believe that if you wish but the Bible does not back up your beliefs.

that is where I got it! I was an atheist when I came to Jesus. so I had no baggage to contend with.

Again...are you hearing yourself? Where will I find such notions in the scriptures? Nowhere is the holy spirit ever called "God"....nowhere will I find "God the Son" ever written......trinitarians made these up to support a doctrine that is nowhere found in scripture. You are determined to make scripture say what you want it to say....

Yes He is in teh book of acts!

Where is "God the Son" ever written?....please show us....
There are a lot of unpleasant horse droppings on these boards

show me where elders are called ministerial elders.
show me where only the 144,000 can take communion.
show me where Jesus followers are called Jehovahs witnesses.

Jesus is the Son of god and is called God so He is God the son! to differentiate Him from the father. Do you want to play that game more?

"In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos."
There are two "gods" in this verse but only one is Yahweh. (ho theos) "Theos" on its own can mean a god or one with divine authority.

No it cannot! If you knew grammar and Greek construct you would know better than to vomit the Watchtower lies. Divine authority is not theos, but theotes.

18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1. John 14:8
   Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
   
   
2. John 14:9
   Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

verse 19 for seen both times is "horao" Which means to see with teh eyes and both are in the perfect active indicative- so what it means for one means for the other! To see Jesus is to see God the Father!

Do we see the word "son" ("hyios") there? Not in the Greek we don't.....but we see it in the English translation. "Monogenes theos" is literally, "only begotten god".....so why the discrepancy even in your KJV?

If "theos" is rendered "son" in verse 18, then verse 1 should be rendered the same way...
And if the divine name had still been in use...John 1:1 would have stated....
"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with Yahweh and the Word was divine".

Nice subtlety you use here.

but if you are to be consistent, John 1:1 using your convpoluted logic would read- In the beginning was the word, and th eword was with the son and the word was the son. YOu tried and faile dto play with teh Word theos.

And you are wrong about Yahweh in verse 1 God would be elohim in the Hebrew not Yahweh. Yahweh was most commonly translated as Lord, in almost all of the 6800 times. but nice try.

There is no trinity there except what the RCC introduced into official church doctrine almost 400 years after Christ was executed.

If you can't see it, then nothing that is said to you will change your mind.....God knows you don't want it changed.

Your ignorance of church history is astounding. Teh Roman Catholic church was not born until teh 6th century. And the trinity was held long before the 400A.D.'s.

What is the early history of the Trinity? – Mormonism Research Ministry (mrm.org)

The Trinity and the Early Church (christiandefense.org)

If you wish I can post many more websites that show the trinity is a biblical concept and that tehchurch long before the RCC believed i the triune God even if that name was not attached to Him yet.

Let me quote you rlast line back to you:

"If you can't see it, then nothing that is said to you will change your mind.....God knows you don't want it changed."

.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

folks please forgive my typing. when it comes to the word "the" I am enormously dyslexic! Plus having terrible arthritis where my hands can literally lock up, typing gets to be a challenge.

Also given I usually have a minimum of 12-20 responses daily, and wanting to give each reply the semblance of fairness at least, I can rush my typing.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes, like reading the Watchtower. ;-)
And other JW material contradicting the Gospel Of Jesus Christ.

This is an assertion....can you tell me what is in the Watchtower that contradicts the gospel of Christ?
Please be specific because unsubstantiated claims are just that.....

If you make the claim, please back it up with evidence that we teach what is contrary to the things that Jesus taught.

 

[marks]

folks please forgive my typing. when it comes to the word "the" I am enormously dyslexic! Plus having terrible arthritis where my hands can literally lock up, typing gets to be a challenge.

Also given I usually have a minimum of 12-20 responses daily, and wanting to give each reply the semblance of fairness at least, I can rush my typing.

Not to worry, beloved!!

 

[Keiw]

And that is referring to His humanity. Not Hios preexistence as Yahweh of Hosts and the second person of the godhead. People need to read carefully when they about teh person of Jesus. Sometimes it refers to His humanity and sometimes to His divinity.

No it is not referring to his humanity.

 

[Wrangler]

No it cannot! If you knew grammar and Greek construct you would know better than to vomit the Watchtower lies. Divine authority is not theos, but theotes.

So, you agree - logos - has no divine authority?

 

[Aunty Jane]

It is a global religion and you and i both know that. so let us stop hiding behind legal triockery.

Perhaps your dyslexia is getting in the way of your comprehension....I have a few dyslexics in my family, just so you know that I understand dyslexia.

The Watchtower is a Bible Society, a legally required entity for the volume of literature that we print and distribute globally every year.
FYI....we are not "The Watchtower" and the magazine by the same name is used to promote accurate Bible knowledge as opposed to what passes for "Christianity" in the realm of Christendom. We also use the watchtower as a logo because of what a watchtower meant to the city of Jerusalem in Bible times.

We are Jehovah's Witnesses, a name based on Isaiah 43:10. Jehovah has always had his witnesses...those who represent his earthly interests, and testify on his behalf. The name is what we do...like no others, in fulfillment of Matthew 28:19-20.

If it is just the bible that teaches you- then put away teh watchtower material and tell teh ministerial elders you are only going to study from the bible for a year- Watch how fast you will be disfellowshipped.

What a ridiculous thing to say! Where did you get your beliefs? I can probably say with certainty that they were formed from the original apostasy of the RCC. Jesus did not foretell this 'falling away' from genuine Christianity for nothing....the "weeds" that he said would grow along with the "wheat" in the field he described as "the world"... were not sown recently. The apostles were dealing with the "wolves" towards the end of the first century. Almost 400 years later the RCC (the declared state religion of a pagan Roman Emperor who fused weakened Christianity with pagan Roman religious practices) gained control of a very weak Christian church, and turned Christ's teachings into modified pagan Roman ideas. If you look at images of Zeus, you will see who they portray as Jesus.

“

From time to time, there have arisen from among the ranks of Jehovah’s people those, who, like the original Satan, have adopted an independent, faultfinding attitude... They say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such ‘Bible reading,’ they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentators by Christendom’s clergy were teaching 100 years ago...” (Watchtower, August 15, 1981)


IMAGINE THAT!!!!!!!!! reading Gods Inspired Word alone will lead you into believing the doctrines of Christianity! From th emouth of the Watchtower itself!!!!!!!

Imagine that!!! What happened in the first century and after that explains why we can't just read the Bible on our own.....how more disunited would you like "Christianity" to be? There are at present literally thousands of "Christian" sects, but none agree with the others except for the base teachings that originated in the RCC....and this, despite the fact that there is only one truth....so in a world of counterfeit "Christianity" we will never find the genuine article on our own.....God has always provided teachers for his people so that no one could introduce their own ideas and then pass them off as God's word on anything. In these last days, Jesus appointed a "faithful and discreet slave" to "feed" his household of fellow slaves, "their food at the proper time". (Matthew 24:45) We believe we have found that slave......
Unless you feed at his table you will not be getting solid spiritual nourishment. And all must eat the same spiritual "food" (1 Corinthians 1:10) with no dissent or disunity among the ranks....it was not permitted.

In first century Christianity, no one was allowed to introduce their own ideas or to subvert the faith of others......they would be shown the door. (2 John 9-10; Galatians 1:8-9; 1 Corinthians 5:9-13) But from the Jewish perspective that is exactly what Jesus and his apostles did.....so here we are again....two sides both claiming to worship the same God, but who really are not.....who do you believe? That is our choice to make.

So, who is the "faithful slave" for you?
Is he fulfilling all that Christ asked of him, and will he hear the promised "well done good and faithful servant"? Who among the disunited rabble that is Christendom will merit his approval?

Calling yourself a "Christian"...even a "born again" is meaningless unless Jesus also sees you as one. Since "few" are on the road to life, where does that leave the "many"? (Matthew 7:13-14; Matthew 7:21-23)

No wonder why from the period of the vanquishing of Arius of Alexandria to the birth of the international bible Students followers of Jesus believed in the trinity and other things the Watchtower calls apostate doctrines! they found them from reading the Bible!!!!!!

I'm afraid you are mistaken in that assumption. For one Arius determined from the scriptures that God was ONE, not THREE. Arius taught that God is unbegotten and without a beginning, which is what scripture teaches. The Son, because he is begotten, therefore cannot be God. Arius believed that the Son did not exist from all eternity but was created and exists by the will of the Father.
We agree with some of his assertions but not all of them. We are not Arians. Our God is the one Jesus still worships even in heaven. Revelation 3:12 where Jesus calls his Father "my God" four times in this one verse, was written long after his ascension.

The Revelation was given by Jesus and conveyed to John via an angel....but it was God who gave the Revelation to Jesus. (Revelation 1:1) Why does one equal part of God need to give his other 'selves' anything? Why does Yahweh need to "give all authority" to his son? (Matthew 28:18) If he is equally God then he already has all authority.....do you people never see through the obvious inconsistencies in your favored doctrine? No wonder you have to make up so many excuses for it.

To go against such a powerful entity as the devil, whom Jesus said had sown the seeds of his counterfeit religions in the world, it is not hard to study history and find the real origins of Roman Catholicism. "The church" became everything Jesus condemned....and its power thoroughly corrupted it as it continued to gain strength, until it had conquered foreigners by force, spreading its false doctrines in all the world.

The Reformation broke the power of the Roman church, but it did nothing to unite the already indoctrinated Christians who took the basic teachings of the church with them, minus the more extreme doctrines.....like "Mary the mother of God" which could never have been adopted without the trinity....or "hellfire" which could never have been accepted without belief in the immortality of the soul. "Souls" in the Bible are mortal because souls are living, breathing creatures. (Ezekiel 18:4)

Israel, from their establishment by God as a nation, were provided with teachers and instructors who also policed the laws that God gave to them. If God does not change, then what we see in Christendom is nothing like the Christianity that Jesus and his apostles began.

Look in your own backyard before you throw your garbage in ours.... OK?

 

[Wrangler]

Another brilliant post but I'm afraid it is pearls before swine.

The Watchtower is ...

Though commanded to love their enemies by their lord, the term Watchtower and JW is used by many here as a pejorative. The relentless slander is atrocious, proving what the 4th century historian, Ammianus, said, no wild beasts are such enemies of mankind as are most Christians in their deadly hatred of each other.

They do not devote so much ink to Islam or other religions antithetical to the gospel of Christ.

The Revelation was given by Jesus and conveyed to John via an angel....but it was God who gave the Revelation to Jesus. (Revelation 1:1) Why does one equal part of God need to give his other 'selves' anything? Why does Yahweh need to "give all authority" to his son? (Matthew 28:18) If he is equally God then he already has all authority.....do you people never see through the obvious inconsistencies in your favored doctrine? No wonder you have to make up so many excuses for it.

I don't think they do. It dawned on me recently that trinitarians do not have a rejection criteria for their idol. So, no evidence is deemed to invalidate the acceptance criteria that they give their dogma by default.

While we question, they advance their dogma at all (intellectual) costs. I used the metaphor of them being in The Matrix.

Since "few" are on the road to life, where does that leave the "many"? (Matthew 7:13-14; Matthew 7:21-23)

Such questions have no meaning to trinitarians, who being mystical dualists, do not embrace the logical principle of mutual exclusivity. They deny that if Jesus is IN, it means he is NOT out. And perniciously, they hold that although Jesus is fully IN, he is also fully OUT.

Look in your own backyard before you throw your garbage in ours.... OK?

A variant of the log in their eye before looking into the spec of dust in Watchtower/JW.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Another brilliant post but I'm afraid it is pearls before swine.

The brilliance is in the scriptures themselves....and in the direct statements that refute the existence of a triune god, as opposed to the ambiguity of indirect ones. Suggestion and assertions are always used by those who cannot prove what they believe......evolution is another example of this.

Suggestions are not facts. The Bible was not written to promote a trinity because in the first century, there was no trinity in the beliefs of Jehovah’s worshippers.....only in the false religions of the nations.
Judaism got a lot of things wrong, but their scripture was inspired of God and there was no hint of a trinity in them. (Deuteronomy 6:4)

We never know who is reading and making decisions about very important beliefs.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Hi Aunty Jane
I have questioned many things within the churches I have been apart of, but your evaluation is based on your own experiences and the limited amount of churches you have weighed up. Evangelism was always part of my experience when I was part of a local congregation. I am no longer part of a church congregation , but I remain ‘ in the church ‘
I wonder why you are here on the forum, it can’t be for fellowship as you regard most of us as serving satan, which, for me places you on dodgy ground. I am and have been led by the Holy Spirit.
Wonder when you asked the Lord into your life and received The Holy Spirit- what’s your real testimony, not what led you to the Kingdom Hall. I was 23years old and can still remember that day, that moment when God made it clear that he was interested in my life and brought me to my knees in tears. I had been searching for a few months after randomly having a conviction to go to a church, didn’t understand a word that was spoken but week by week the same conviction burned into me ……until that day as I studied and read Ephesians chapter one.
Regardless of your evaluation I stand on my testimony and on the work of the Holy Spirit that has guided and led me forward ever since that moment.
I am reading Micah Wilders testimony at the moment , much of what he relays about the Mormons align with what you convey about the JWs -obviously they believe different things but they maintain they are the one true church on earth , go door to door and evangelise to Christian’s with the aim of converting them.
Rita

Just to clarify something: all Christians (of all denominations) beleive that there’s is the correct faith and church. All believe that there is the call to share the Gospel, though methods and actual actions will vary. There’s nothing unique about JW or LDS Christians there, except that each of them do take the call to share to what they believe seriously (again, methods vary too).

Besides that, JW and LDS Christians are so different. For example: I (an LDS Christian) have shared how wonderful your conversion story is many times- a relationship with Christ is the the most paramount thing anyone could ever have. Your faith is beautiful. Versus JW do believe anyone outside their pews shall perish.

 

[Windmillcharge]

There’s nothing unique about JW or LDS Christians

Really, the jw deny Jesus is God, have multiple failed prophecies and deliberately distort scripture.

The church h of latter-day saints as you know believes in extra non biblical material that is essential if one is to be a Mormon.
That good Mormons become the god and godess of their own world, populating it with spirit children.
That God is only one of countless other gods who all rule there own planet.

These are all non christian teachings.