Are Jehovah's witnesses real Christians?

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ScottA

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Sorry, but I do not see any of that in the Bible.
The scripture you refers to about headship of the man and the woman tells us that “the head of Christ is God”....so if the son has a head, he is not in the same position as his Father, but is subject to him.
Don't be sorry. You not seeing is why I have explained it to you.
 

Dropship

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The early JW's used to have the cross on the cover of their publications (below in the top left corner) but the later JW's have dropped it.
So who's right, the earlier or later JW's?

rel-JW-Watchtower-1912.jpg
 

Ronald Nolette

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I believe that you have mistaken God’s name for a mere handle.....in Bible times names had important significance.
Moses wrote the Genesis account and it contains the divine name throughout, so he did not have a problem with God’s name at all.

The first appearance of the divine name is found at Genesis 2:4, which in the Jewish Tanakh reads....
"These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, on the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven."דאֵ֣לֶּה תֽוֹלְד֧וֹת הַשָּׁמַ֛יִם וְהָאָ֖רֶץ בְּהִ֣בָּֽרְאָ֑ם בְּי֗וֹם עֲשׂ֛וֹת יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהִ֖ים אֶ֥רֶץ וְשָׁמָֽיִם:

The Lord God is "יְהֹוָ֥ה" as you can see clearly in the Hebrew text.

What does the divine name mean?

Again Moses answers....

"And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:
14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:
15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation."טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:

What added dimension did God reveal about his name here?......not just a statement of his existence, because Israel already knew who the God of their forefathers was. His intention now was to "BE"or to "BECOME" whatever was required to fulfill his purpose in connection with them.

Being Abraham’s offspring, (the only man ever to have been called “Jehovah’s friend”), it is highly unlikely that Abraham was not acquainted with the name of his God. Can you be close friends with someone whose name you do not know? (2 Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8; James 2:23)
Now just remember that Moses used teh divine name when He wrote Genesis. In case you forget Moses is the author of the Pentateuch. So no YHWH was not known in the early days- it was inserted by Moses.

For what you are ijmplying is that by the time Moses came around not one single Jew living could ever remember the divine name. That stretches crdsulity past teh breaking point.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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The official website of the Catholic Church states:

“About the 13th century the term ‘Jehovah’ appeared when Christian scholars took the consonants of ‘Yahweh’ and pronounced it with the vowels of ‘Adonai.’ This resulted in the sound ‘Yahowah,’ which has a Latinized spelling of ‘Jehovah.’ The first recorded use of this spelling was made by a Spanish Dominican monk, Raymundus Martini, in 1270” (www.catholic.com/qa/is-gods-name-yahweh-or-jehovah).​

Below are some references to Yahweh:

“The true pronunciation of the name YHWH was never lost. Several early Greek writers of the Christian Church testify that the name was pronounced ‘Yahweh’” (Encyclopaedia Judaica, vol. 7, p. 680).​

“Early Christian writers, such as Clement of Alexandria in the 2nd century, had used the form Yahweh, thus this pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton was never really lost. Greek transcriptions also indicated that YHWH should be pronounced Yahweh” (Encyclopaedia Britannica, 15th ed., vol. x, p. 786).​

“The pronunciation Yahweh is indicated by transliteration of the name into Greek in early Christian literature, in the form iaoue (Clement of Alexandria) or iabe (Theodoret; by this time Gk. b had the pronunciation of v)…Strictly speaking, Yahweh is the only ‘name’ of God. In Genesis wherever the word sem (‘name’) is associated with the divine being that name is Yahweh” (Eerdman’s Bible Dictionary, 1979 p. 478).​

“Such a conclusion, giving ‘Yahweh’ as the pronunciation of the name, is confirmed by the testimony of the Fathers and gentile writers, where the forms IAO, Yaho, Yaou, Yahouai, and Yahoue appear. Especially important is the statement of Theodoret in relation to Ex. lvi, when he says: ‘the Samaritans call it [the tetragrammaton] ‘Yabe,’ the Jews call it ‘Aia’…” (The New Schaff-Herzog Religious Encyclopedia, “Yahweh,” p. 471)​

In addition to early Christian sources, evidence for Yahweh is also found in the Nag Hammadi codices, dating from the 2nd to 4th century CE. This library of Gnostic writings was discovered in Upper Egypt, near Nag Hammadi, in 1945. In all, there are over 50 texts within this library. Since they are in Greek, as with the church fathers, they preserve the pronunciation.


Actually, the tetragrammaton first appears in Genesis 2:4
Just remember it was Moses who inserted the divine name in Genesis. If the name yahweh was known as early as Genesis and knowing Moses spent over forty years with Israel, then one has to assume that the name was lost to Israel for a long long time and there is no warrant for that. Moses had to ask God His name because He didn't know and the people didn't know and there is no evidence that the name was lost.
 

Ronald Nolette

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The official website of the Catholic Church states:

“About the 13th century the term ‘Jehovah’ appeared when Christian scholars took the consonants of ‘Yahweh’ and pronounced it with the vowels of ‘Adonai.’ This resulted in the sound ‘Yahowah,’ which has a Latinized spelling of ‘Jehovah.’ The first recorded use of this spelling was made by a Spanish Dominican monk, Raymundus Martini, in 1270” (www.catholic.com/qa/is-gods-name-yahweh-or-jehovah).​

Below are some references to Yahweh:

“The true pronunciation of the name YHWH was never lost. Several early Greek writers of the Christian Church testify that the name was pronounced ‘Yahweh’” (Encyclopaedia Judaica, vol. 7, p. 680).​

“Early Christian writers, such as Clement of Alexandria in the 2nd century, had used the form Yahweh, thus this pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton was never really lost. Greek transcriptions also indicated that YHWH should be pronounced Yahweh” (Encyclopaedia Britannica, 15th ed., vol. x, p. 786).​

“The pronunciation Yahweh is indicated by transliteration of the name into Greek in early Christian literature, in the form iaoue (Clement of Alexandria) or iabe (Theodoret; by this time Gk. b had the pronunciation of v)…Strictly speaking, Yahweh is the only ‘name’ of God. In Genesis wherever the word sem (‘name’) is associated with the divine being that name is Yahweh” (Eerdman’s Bible Dictionary, 1979 p. 478).​

“Such a conclusion, giving ‘Yahweh’ as the pronunciation of the name, is confirmed by the testimony of the Fathers and gentile writers, where the forms IAO, Yaho, Yaou, Yahouai, and Yahoue appear. Especially important is the statement of Theodoret in relation to Ex. lvi, when he says: ‘the Samaritans call it [the tetragrammaton] ‘Yabe,’ the Jews call it ‘Aia’…” (The New Schaff-Herzog Religious Encyclopedia, “Yahweh,” p. 471)​

In addition to early Christian sources, evidence for Yahweh is also found in the Nag Hammadi codices, dating from the 2nd to 4th century CE. This library of Gnostic writings was discovered in Upper Egypt, near Nag Hammadi, in 1945. In all, there are over 50 texts within this library. Since they are in Greek, as with the church fathers, they preserve the pronunciation.


Actually, the tetragrammaton first appears in Genesis 2:4
Just remember it was Moses who inserted the divine name in Genesis. If the name yahweh was known as early as Genesis and knowing Moses spent over forty years with Israel, then one has to assume that the name was lost to Israel for a long long time and there is no warrant for that. Moses had to ask God His name because He didn't know and the people didn't know and there is no evidence that the name was lost.
Exactly Ron! Now you get it sir. Mat 4:10 You surely do not think Jesus would have altered it, so anyone who alters the Bible during translation, is disobeying God for sure. I might add to the superlative degree Rev 22:18,19
So you are accusing teh inspired writers of teh NT iof disobeying god and not accurately writing what god said! WOWOWOWOWOW!!!!
 
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Aunty Jane

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From another forum on JW teaching
========================
I have found something that stopped JWs in their tracks the two times I’ve used it when they’ve come to my home
Was this your own experience?
We do understand that our ministry is not conducted to convert or to convince the world of things that they don’t want to believe......there are those here who are determined to make JW’s appear to be some kind of blight on the "Christianity" that they want to practice, but have no idea that it isnt the "Christianity" that was started by Jesus and his apostles. That "Christianity" all but died when the devil sowed his "weeds" and they almost choked genuine Christianity out of existence, which is what "weeds" do best in any garden. If only the plants you want to grow, did as well as the weeds always do....
Do you know when Jesus said that the weeds were sown? (Matthew 13:24-30)

Remember back to Jesus’ day and understand how he and his disciples were considered by the majority back then.....that they were a blight on Judaism.......history repeats right under people’s noses because they can’t see past the end of them....or don’t want to.

Remember also "the days of Noah".....no one believed him either, but rather they chose to ridicule him and ignore his warning.
Jesus said that the time of his return would be just like those days. (Matthew 24:37-39)

We are not there to force anyone to believe a thing we say.....we are just messengers, and if we receive a hostile or indifferent response.....we are to "shake the dust off" and move on.....(Matthew 10:11-14)

We have no need to be "stopped in our tracks"....you see, we at least are out there doing what Christ commanded, (Matthew 28:19-20; Matthew 24:14) and have been for over 100 years. The kingdom preaching work was to continue until "the end".
Can you tell me what it is "the end" of?
(If there is a way to refute this from their point of view, I’d like to know what it is.) In both conversations, I asked them what they believe happens to us when we die, since only 144,000 people will be in Heaven. They believe that there will be some sort of kingdom on earth that will be a wonderful place to live, but they can’t be sure that they will be there.
It is “the one who endures to the end who will be saved” (Matthew 24:13)....so only at the end will we know if Jesus counts us worthy of salvation. “Many” are going to assume that they have conducted themselves as Christ’s disciples, and yet he will reject them outright because they were only fooling themselves, not the one who judges all of us by God’s standards, not theirs. (Matthew 7:21-23) This explains why Jesus said that “few” are on the 'cramped and narrow' road to life. (Matthew 7:13-14) It is 'cramped and narrow' for a reason.
We hope to be among the “few”.

I guess you don’t find that out until you die. But, I asked, “What if I don’t believe in God or the Bible or anything you’re telling me?” I’ve heard two responses: The first lady said, “You’re annihilated.” So I asked, “If you can’t promise I’ll make it into the kingdom, but you can promise there’s no Hell, then, why bother?” She had no answer and was off my porch in a flash.
What a joke....please don’t confuse an inability to answer with no desire to argue or to have fruitless conversations. A person’s response will indicate whether we continue, or just leave the conversation and move on. You don't have to be a genius to detect when someone just wants an argument.....that is not why we call.....nor was it the reason why the first Christians called on people in their homes. (Matthew 10:11-14; Acts 20:20) They wanted to tell people "the good news of the kingdom"....it wasn't to have fruitless arguments as to who is right and who is wrong....Jesus will decide that. But we have to be found "doing the will of the Father" in all things. (Matthew 7:21-23)

When we die, we return to the dust just as God’s word says. Those who have died have had their sins forgiven because they have have 'paid sin's wages', which is the penalty for being born as a sinful descendant of Adam. (Romans 5:12)
A resurrection is assured for them. John 5:28-29 says that all the dead will come out of their graves, not out of heaven. They are all "sleeping", like Lazarus was. (John 11:11-14)
Some who died faithful will be considered "righteous" and granted life, whereas those "who did vile things" will be resurrected to a period of judgment. The majority would have lived and died without knowing God or his son....these will be educated and given that opportunity.

The incorrigibly wicked however, are in "gehenna", not "hades".....these will not be given life ever again. Eternal separation from God means that they have returned to where they were before their parents conceived them......they will simply not exist. Unlike “sheol” or “hades”, the “lake of fire” is the same as “gehenna”...a place where, what goes in, never comes out. It is not a place of eternal torture, but of eternal death.

The second JW who came, answered, “You’re separated from God forever.” Then I asked, “So, what’s wrong with that?” And she reacted like she was horrified, put her hand on her chest, and said, “I can’t imagine anything worse than being separated from God forever!” I said, “Well, I can. It would be KNOWING you’re separated from God forever. If you’re annihilated, you no longer exist. You don’t know anything.” She and her partner looked at each other and left without another word, not even good-bye. I hope in both cases, I gave them something to think about.
As I mentioned.....you gave them something to think about all right...but not what you imagined. The victory was all in your own mind.....and God will allow you your smugness, just as he allowed those in Noah’s day and in Jesus day to enjoy their seeming victory......I assure you, it has nothing to do with not being able to answer....we just know when the conversation will be fruitless.....in a one-on-one situation, we would not waste time arguing, but in this online setting, when many more are readers rather than posters, it is sometimes good to have a debate so that these ones can see both sides of the story. That way they have something to evaluate....only God can make the seed of truth grow in a receptive heart. (1 Cor 3:5-7; Luke 8:11-15)
 
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Aunty Jane

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The early JW's used to have the cross on the cover of their publications (below in the top left corner) but the later JW's have dropped it.
So who's right, the earlier or later JW's?

View attachment 27757
LOL...you have to go a long way back to find "The International Bible students Association".....I believe this is from 1912.....We have been known as "Jehovah's Witnesses since the early 1930's.....we have come a long way since then.

You seem to think that as a progressive organization we cannot come to appreciate new truths as they are examined and evaluated. We don't get stuck with old truths, but embrace new ones as they become clear.

As Proverbs 4:18 says...
"But the path of the righteous is like the bright morning light
That grows brighter and brighter until full daylight."


There were many things that we examined in our quest for the truth. Not all things came to light at once, because "the light on the path becomes brighter as the day dawns". The light of truth had been smothered in darkness; overgrown by "weeds" for so long that it took quite some time to examine all of Christendom's doctrines and come to the right conclusions about them and to trace their origins.....most of which were never in the Bible in the first place, but were introduced by an apostate church long after Jesus died. People are still shackled to those doctrines, but gradually over time, we have been set free from them....as Jesus said we would be.

John 8:31-36....
Then Jesus went on to say to the Jews who had believed him: “If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” 33 They replied to him: “We are Abraham’s offspring and never have been slaves to anyone. How is it you say, ‘You will become free’?” 34 Jesus answered them: “Most truly I say to you, every doer of sin is a slave of sin. 35 Moreover, the slave does not remain in the household forever; the son remains forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be truly free."

So because Christendom is so hopelessly divided and teaching many unscriptural beliefs gleaned from paganism, we can see that God is not with them because if he was, they would all speak one truth. (1 Cor 1:10) Their disunity and "friendship with the world" are proof that God is not among them. (James 4:4; John 17:14-18) They are in bed with his enemies.
As part of "Babylon the great" God's "people" are told to "get out of her", just as Jesus' disciples had to remove themselves from apostate Judaism.
God is about to hold her to account, and it will not end well for those who have failed to heed God's command to remove themselves from what God sees as a spiritual prostitute. (Revelation 18:4-5)
 
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Aunty Jane

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Now just remember that Moses used teh divine name when He wrote Genesis. In case you forget Moses is the author of the Pentateuch. So no YHWH was not known in the early days- it was inserted by Moses.

For what you are ijmplying is that by the time Moses came around not one single Jew living could ever remember the divine name. That stretches crdsulity past teh breaking point.
You seem to be missing the whole point.....its not WHEN God's name was revealed but THAT it was made known to his people and the meaning of the divine name remains true to this day. "I Will Be What I Will Be" is what the Jewish Tanakh says....and Jehovah will continue to be whatever he needs to be in order to carry out his purpose. What he started in the beginning, he will fulfill in the end. (Isaiah 55:11)

Who inspired scripture? Was it Moses who inserted the divine name in to his Genesis account?...as if God had never had a name until then?
Was it Moses' word, or God's word? Are you really that blind? It seems so.
It wasn't Moses who made up a name for his God, but Jehovah himself who proclaimed it.....it is the only name he has ever had, whereas Jesus has many names, depending upon the role he is fulfilling at the time. Names in the Bible are not mere handles, but have deep significance.
 

Peterlag

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If you are a born again Christian Peter, you are in line for some wonderful blessings sir. Of course every Christian sins, holy ones included. Those verses are not literal, but indicate that you have been declared sinless. You quoted one of my favorite passages found at Romans 6:7, which applies to all Christians sir.
How do we know what part of the Bible is literal and what part is made up?
 

Dropship

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You seem to think that as a progressive organization we [JW's] cannot come to appreciate new truths as they are examined and evaluated. We don't get stuck with old truths, but embrace new ones as they become clear..

But how do you know it's the "truth" not to celebrate Christmas, the Easter resurrection, birthdays, and to avoid crucifixes, churches and transfusions?
 
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Brakelite

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The nitty gritty of the OP, the question, are Jehovah's Witnesses Christians, is what makes a Christian? Belonging to a particular denomination or group? Or being independent of them? Neither. The answer will come to each and every one of us as individuals. Jesus will say one of either two things, did I know you, or did I not know you? I'm other words, whether we are Christian or not boils down to relationship. Not doctrine. Not denominational affiliation. Not lifestyle... Although those things are important and can affect our destiny, but our ultimate salvation comes down to relationship with Jesus. Not an imaginary pseudo relationship by proxy through others. But personal experiential knowledge and intimacy. Do Jehovah's witnesses have that? That's not for me to say. But it is certainly something they need to be honest with.
 
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