Are only 144,000 saved? (Rev 14:1)

[Taken]

There probably is no need to continue this discussion.

Joe

Agree

 

[quietthinker]

Are only 144,000 saved? (Rev 14:1)​

This might be considered......

In Revelation 7:4 John heard the number 144,000 but a few verses later in vs 9 when he looks he sees an innumerable great multitude from all nations (plural)

I suggest this is the same crowd. The term 144,000 being made up of 12x12000 is figurative of all the saved from every part of history. (the name 'Israel' meaning, he who prevails with God and man and overcomes)

First he hears, then he sees.....ie, after he looks at what he heard......and what did he see? a great multitude which could not be numbered (the same language used by God with Abraham....'as innumerable as the dust of the earth'. Gen. 13:16

 

[Keiw]

Are only 144,000 saved? (Rev 14:1)​

This might be considered......

In Revelation 7:4 John heard the number 144,000 but a few verses later in vs 9 when he looks he sees an innumerable great multitude from all nations (plural)

I suggest this is the same crowd. The term 144,000 being made up of 12x12000 is figurative of all the saved from every part of history. (the name 'Israel' meaning, he who prevails with God and man and overcomes)

First he hears, then he sees.....ie, after he looks at what he heard......and what did he see? a great multitude which could not be numbered (the same language used by God with Abraham....'as innumerable as the dust of the earth'. Gen. 13:16

Actually the great crowd mentioned there are angels. Rev 14:3--144,000 are BOUGHT from the earth)-By Jesus sacrifice. No where is the great crowd of other sheep that no man can number promised heaven.

 

[quietthinker]

Actually the great crowd mentioned there are angels. Rev 14:3--144,000 are BOUGHT from the earth)-By Jesus sacrifice. No where is the great crowd of other sheep that no man can number promised heaven.

God's magnanimity is not to be under estimated. We need to step back and see humanity as represented both in Adam and in Jesus as presented in Romans 5:6-21. We are to use this understanding as our base for God's saving intentions and activity.

Get too close to the trees without the perspective of the forest and one can distort anything to mean anything.

 

[Keiw]

God's magnanimity is not to be under estimated. We need to step back and see humanity as represented both in Adam and in Jesus as presented in Romans 5:6-21. We are to use this understanding as our base for God's saving intentions and activity.

Get too close to the trees without the perspective of the forest and one can distort anything to mean anything.

Bible facts--2 groups being saved. yet they make up one flock--one called the little flock( Luke 12:32) =the anointed bride of Christ=144,000 bought from the earth. The great crowd ( Rev 7:9), no man can number, of other sheep( John 10:16) are not of that fold--they get this promise-Matt 5:5-Blessed are the meek for they will inherit the earth. No others will be saved. Prov 2:21-22 assures they will not leave the earth. God created earth for mortals. They will be on the new earth which means--this earth, but Gods kingdom rule in full control, no more satan influences.

 

[quietthinker]

Bible facts--2 groups being saved. yet they make up one flock--one called the little flock( Luke 12:32) =the anointed bride of Christ=144,000 bought from the earth. The great crowd ( Rev 7:9), no man can number, of other sheep( John 10:16) are not of that fold--they get this promise-Matt 5:5-Blessed are the meek for they will inherit the earth. No others will be saved. Prov 2:21-22 assures they will not leave the earth. God created earth for mortals. They will be on the new earth which means--this earth, but Gods kingdom rule in full control, no more satan influences.

Too many assumptions which I would call unsubstantiated. Assumptions which attempt to justify incorrect predetermined positions.

 

[Keiw]

Too many assumptions which I would call unsubstantiated. Assumptions which attempt to justify incorrect predetermined positions.

The light knows i am correct, because i learned from the real teachers that have Jesus.
Matt 24:22-- Unless those days are cut short( trib and Armageddon) no flesh would be saved.-- Prov 2:21-22 assures the righteous remain on this earth forever= the great crowd--they are not bought from the earth, only the 144,000 are( Rev 14:3) to heaven to rule as kings and priests alongside Jesus on thrones( Rev 1:6, Rev 20:6)= the anointed bride of Christ.-- This is what every translation on earth teaches.

 

[quietthinker]

The light knows i am correct, because i learned from the real teachers that have Jesus.
Matt 24:22-- Unless those days are cut short( trib and Armageddon) no flesh would be saved.-- Prov 2:21-22 assures the righteous remain on this earth forever= the great crowd--they are not bought from the earth, only the 144,000 are( Rev 14:3) to heaven to rule as kings and priests alongside Jesus on thrones( Rev 1:6, Rev 20:6)= the anointed bride of Christ.-- This is what every translation on earth teaches.

'work out your own salvation with fear and trembling'....Paul of Tarsus

 

[Keiw]

'work out your own salvation with fear and trembling'....Paul of Tarsus

The only ones who will be saved are those who live now to do Jesus' Fathers will over their own will( Matt 7:21) just as Jesus does. One of the biggest problems is that a man( blind guide) assures others-you are saved, And they believe him. Yet he does not know who will be saved except by theory. He cannot read anothers true heart, he has never seen a single name written in Gods book of life, he has no idea who will endure until their end( Matt 10:22) doing Matt 7:21 in this satan ruled system.

 

[quietthinker]

The only ones who will be saved are those who live now to do Jesus' Fathers will over their own will( Matt 7:21) just as Jesus does. One of the biggest problems is that a man( blind guide) assures others-you are saved, And they believe him. Yet he does not know who will be saved except by theory. He cannot read anothers true heart, he has never seen a single name written in Gods book of life, he has no idea who will endure until their end( Matt 10:22) doing Matt 7:21 in this satan ruled system.

respectfully, what are you trying to tell me Keiw?

 

[Keiw]

respectfully, what are you trying to tell me Keiw?

That once one is told they are saved, they do little to listen to Jesus. It hurts them more than helps them. Jesus teaches--Man does not live by bread alone, but by EVERY utterance from God--that is his Fathers will. So all who listen to Jesus do exactly that=OT-NT over and over, year after year. Jesus' real teachers teach EVERY utterance from God without fail-- One is not taught every utterance from God in any building on earth called-church. Those religions do not listen to Jesus, those religions are the ones who assure all-you are saved.

 

[face2face]

That once one is told they are saved, they do little to listen to Jesus. It hurts them more than helps them. Jesus teaches--Man does not live by bread alone, but by EVERY utterance from God--that is his Fathers will. So all who listen to Jesus do exactly that=OT-NT over and over, year after year. Jesus' real teachers teach EVERY utterance from God without fail-- One is not taught every utterance from God in any building on earth called-church. Those religions do not listen to Jesus, those religions are the ones who assure all-you are saved.

It has been disturbing to witness the idea of "all saved" in this forum. It cuts right across the Lord's teaching that one must seek first his Kingdom and his righteousness on a daily basis. Our probation is all about "being saved", by promise and faith. Its not a given!

 

[Keiw]

It has been disturbing to witness the idea of "all saved" in this forum. It cuts right across the Lord's teaching that one must seek first his Kingdom and his righteousness on a daily basis. Our probation is all about "being saved", by promise and faith. Its not a given!

Matt 6:33-Keep on seeking- FIRST - the kingdom and his ( YHWH(Jehovah) righteousness and all these things will be added( sustenance, covering, spirituality( Matt 6)-- that is what Jesus taught)-- YHWH(Jehovah) is the Father--Jesus said-- I am the way, truth and life, No one comes to the Father but through me---the Father is ones destination, to accomplish this-24/7-365--John 4:22-24--the real Jesus points all to his Father-YHWH(Jehovah)

Sorry F2F, don't know how you got in there, lol...I didn't quote anyone

 

[bluedragon]

Parable-

noun​

1. A simple story illustrating a moral or religious lesson.
2. A comparison; similitude.
3. Specifically An allegorical relation or representation from which a moral is drawn for instruction; an apologue

Jesus- TRUTH

Conclusion-
Every word Jesus spoke IS Truth.

The style a story is called: ie. Bedtime story, Fable story, Joke story, Moral story, Rhyming story, Lesson story, Memorial story,
Parable story, etc. All Irrelevant WHEN the Speaker is Identified IS Jesus, who IS Truth.

The 144,000 Are God Elect.
(Elect simply means Chosen.)
MANY are called, FEW are chosen.
Many and Few are subjective, without identifying a specific Number.

144,000 are identified as 12,000 virgins of the 12 Tribes of ISRAEL.
They are revealed having been elected/Chosen for a specific holy Purpose/Task of Service Unto The Lord God.

Their Purpose/Task is To Teach the Tribes of ISRAEL the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

When?
When the Tribes of ISRAEL in JERUSALEM are directed to Gather on Mt ZION (Sion).

Why?
1) Shortly After the last Apostle died, the Gospel of Jesus Christ Stopped being taught BY Jews, IN Synagogues.
2) Dilemma-
Once The Belief IN Jesus was revealed AS required FOR Salvation…And Gods Chosen People (HEBREWS, Tribes of ISRAEL), were no longer THE TEACHERS, they also forfeited being THE STUDENTS.
3) Dilemma- God PROMISED to Save All of ISRAEL Faithful to God.
4) Solution-
During the end of days Tribulations…
God sends A Lamb, with 144,000 Tribesmen Teachers, To Teach The Tribesmen of ISRAEL, who have been Directed to gather on Mt ZION, and Hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ FROM their own Kinsmen.

And Tribesmen WHO Hear and Choose to BELIEVE IN Jesus …What shall become of Them?

* their body killed for believing IN Jesus.​

* their soul saved.​

* their quickened body raised up “BY GOD”, during GOD’S First resurrection; after the millennial reign of Christ.​

(1 Thes 4:14)

Yes, the 144,000 are Gods ELECT. However Gods ELECT is not LIMITED to “only” 144,000.
Every individual God has and will choose for a specific Service unto God, IS Gods ELECT.
Every individual WHO “elects God” becomes Gods “ELECT”.
Examples of Gods ELECT are revealed by name, written IN Scripture ie. Adam, Samuel, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Noah, Moses, John, Saul, Paul, Peter, Mary….on an on….and YOU who believes IN your heart…ALL included as Gods Elect….BECAUSE:

1)
1 Thes 1:
[4] Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
(God Raises up)

2)
John 6:
[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
(Christ Raises up)

Wisdom-
Gods word, intent, purpose, Order and Way.

Glory to God,
Taken

Thus we have several who wonder why there are no "Thumbs up"

 

[Nancy]

I think Rev. 7:4-5 are pretty clear about the 144,000:

4And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel: 5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000,…

 

[Arthur81]

avedNo. 144,000 is the number of saints or the bride of Christ. Revelation 14:1, 4 (NKJV),… “one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads. ... not defiled with women, … are virgins…. the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes.” In this present life, only the saints have obediently followed Jesus.

Are the rest of mankind redeemed? Yes!

“Who (?Jesus?) gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." - 1 Timothy 2:6 (KJV) A ransom is a corresponding price. It is the price paid in place of the one to be released. Hence it is of equal value to the prisoner. Recall 1 Corinthians 15:22, “As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” Jesus was the price of equal value corresponding to Adam.

How was Jesus considered equal to Adam?

Adam was a perfect man created in God’s image. (See Genesis 1:27 and Deuteronomy 32:4.) None of Adam’s offspring could redeem Adam because we are all imperfect - “… a sinner the moment my mother conceived me.” - Psalm 51:5 (NET) God’s justice, declared in the Law, requires a life for a life. An equal payment (Exodus 21:23). In the special case of Adam, a perfect human life was plunged into death and required a perfect human life to ransom him from death. Thus, as 1 Timothy 2:6 states, Jesus was that perfect human life.

To further explain, Adam had a perfect human race within his loins. Jesus also had a perfect human race within himself. When Jesus redeemed Adam, the corresponding price for Adam’s unborn, sinful race was Jesus’s unborn, perfect human race. God’s law of a life for a life was upheld.

1 Timothy 2:6 also states that this truth will be made known “in due time.” What is the due time? Today, the high calling to follow in Jesus’s sacrificial footsteps is open. The purpose is to call out the church class. These are the first fruits (Revelation 4:4). They receive the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) with the heavenly reward of sitting with Jesus on thrones in heaven (Revelation 20:3, Luke 22:30). These are the 144,000 of Revelation 7 and 14.

However, a great number of redeemed, spirit-begotten Christians are not willingly faithful to their covenant to sacrifice their wills and flesh (Romans 12:1) to do only God’s will. These need tribulation to wash their robes (Revelation 7:9). While they do receive a heavenly resurrection, they do not receive the divine nature. They stand before Christ’s throne to serve God.

The due time for mankind to receive redemption will be during the general human resurrection when Christ reigns on Earth. Then, “…I (God) will put my law within them (starting with Israel and spreading to all), and I will write it upon their hearts; … I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." - Jeremiah 31:33-34 RSV

Jesus redeemed ALL!

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming." (1Cor 15:22-23 ASV)

All men descended from Adam without exception die and all men in their natural state are dead in their sins, Eph. 2:1, 5. Who are those referred to as "in Christ"? The following verse tells us, "they that are Christ's". To be "in Christ" is to be united to Christ by the grace of faith. So, the "ALL be made alive" refers to all that are in Christ. Since saving faith is God's gift to the elect, the Revised English Bible renders the thought well -

"By God’s act you are in Christ Jesus; God has made him our wisdom, and in him we have our righteousness, our holiness, our liberation." (1Cor 1:30 REB)

"I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, be made for all men; for kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all; the testimony to be borne in its own times;" (1Tim 2:1-6 ASV)

How is "all men" in v1 to be understood? Since Paul then speaks of a particular category of men such as kings, apparently he means pray for men of all categories, such as John explains Christ's particular redemption to all categories in Rev. 5:9.

The phrase "who would have all men to be saved" is literally "who doth will all men to be saved". There is a preceptive will of God, where he commands repentance in Acts 17:30 and we are commanded to believe in 1 John 3:23. Will all repent and believe? No, and God does not give faith and repentance to any but his elect. If the "will" in this phrase is God's will of decree, ALL MEN WILL BE SAVED! We know that not all men will be saved. There is no universal salvation of all men.

The all in "gave himself a ransom for all" refers again to all categories of men as in Rev. 5:9 -

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Rev 5:9 KJV) *God chose his own out of the world John 15:19; 17:6.

"And now they sing a new song. "It is fitting," they say, "that Thou shouldst be the One to take the book And break its seals; Because Thou hast been offered in sacrifice, And hast purchased for God with Thine own blood Some out of every tribe and language and people and nation," (Rev 5:9 Weymouth)

It is improper hermeneutics to introduce contradictions in God's word opposing the many clear statements of God's election of particular persons to salvation, and to send the Son of God to die for those particular persons. The words such as "all" and "every" are often to be restricted by the context and in a manner to not oppose other much more clear statements in scripture.

"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord; and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers." (Acts 13:48 NRSV)

"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the Lord's message; and those who had been chosen for eternal life became believers." (Acts 13:48 GNB92)

Introducing contradictions into the meaning of God's word by the misuse of words such as "all" and "every" is faulty hermeneutics. The universalist sounding passages can more reasonably be explained as compatible with unmerited election and particular redemption, than the definite, frequent references to God's sovereign election can be reasonably denied or explained away.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

I think Rev. 7:4-5 are pretty clear about the 144,000:

4And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel: 5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000,…

I agree ; case closed for me.

 

[Keiw]

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming." (1Cor 15:22-23 ASV)

All men descended from Adam without exception die and all men in their natural state are dead in their sins, Eph. 2:1, 5. Who are those referred to as "in Christ"? The following verse tells us, "they that are Christ's". To be "in Christ" is to be united to Christ by the grace of faith. So, the "ALL be made alive" refers to all that are in Christ. Since saving faith is God's gift to the elect, the Revised English Bible renders the thought well -

"By God’s act you are in Christ Jesus; God has made him our wisdom, and in him we have our righteousness, our holiness, our liberation." (1Cor 1:30 REB)

"I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, be made for all men; for kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all; the testimony to be borne in its own times;" (1Tim 2:1-6 ASV)

How is "all men" in v1 to be understood? Since Paul then speaks of a particular category of men such as kings, apparently he means pray for men of all categories, such as John explains Christ's particular redemption to all categories in Rev. 5:9.

The phrase "who would have all men to be saved" is literally "who doth will all men to be saved". There is a preceptive will of God, where he commands repentance in Acts 17:30 and we are commanded to believe in 1 John 3:23. Will all repent and believe? No, and God does not give faith and repentance to any but his elect. If the "will" in this phrase is God's will of decree, ALL MEN WILL BE SAVED! We know that not all men will be saved. There is no universal salvation of all men.

The all in "gave himself a ransom for all" refers again to all categories of men as in Rev. 5:9 -

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Rev 5:9 KJV) *God chose his own out of the world John 15:19; 17:6.

"And now they sing a new song. "It is fitting," they say, "that Thou shouldst be the One to take the book And break its seals; Because Thou hast been offered in sacrifice, And hast purchased for God with Thine own blood Some out of every tribe and language and people and nation," (Rev 5:9 Weymouth)

It is improper hermeneutics to introduce contradictions in God's word opposing the many clear statements of God's election of particular persons to salvation, and to send the Son of God to die for those particular persons. The words such as "all" and "every" are often to be restricted by the context and in a manner to not oppose other much more clear statements in scripture.

"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord; and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers." (Acts 13:48 NRSV)

"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the Lord's message; and those who had been chosen for eternal life became believers." (Acts 13:48 GNB92)

Introducing contradictions into the meaning of God's word by the misuse of words such as "all" and "every" is faulty hermeneutics. The universalist sounding passages can more reasonably be explained as compatible with unmerited election and particular redemption, than the definite, frequent references to God's sovereign election can be reasonably denied or explained away.

The great crowd are promised eternal life on earth, not heaven.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Lol all you that wish to remain on earth, may God grant it as opposed to the LOF.
As for myself, I choose heaven, never want to see planet earth again !

 

[VCO]

Lol all you that wish to remain on earth, may God grant it as opposed to the LOF.
As for myself, I choose heaven, never want to see planet earth again !

Amen to that. I do not see how they get that Theory on them not being Israelis. I mean, 12,000 from every part of the Country.