Are the trumpets and vials running in parallel like some insist?

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Davidpt

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Meaning trumpet 1 and vial 1 are the same event. Trumpet 2 and vial 2 are the same event. So on and so on.

Let's start with these 2 verses.

Revelation 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

Revelation 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.


If these are the same event, when does the 2nd angel quit blowing his trumpet and then start pouring out his vial?

Revelation 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets

Where does it say in the text that to them were also given 7 vials? After all, vials have to be given to them first before they can pour them out. Obviously.

Revelation 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Where does it say in the text that they are also to go out and blow their trumpets?

Between these trumpets and vials, how many angels should we assume it is involving? 7 or 14?

Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.


Notice something here. This is obviously meaning the time pertaining to not worshiping the beast and then being martyred for not worshiping it, that era of time has been fulfilled and is now in the past. IOW, there are no more martyrs ever again at this point in time. And guess what? Every single vial, all 7 of them, are poured out after Revelation 15:2 is meaning, not before Revelation 15:2 is meaning.

Let's now to go to Revelation 11, which is involving the 6th trumpet.

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Does it look like Revelation 15:2 has already been fulfilled at this point, meaning as of the 6th trumpet, that there are no more martyrs? Keeping in mind that none of vials of wrath are poured out until there is first no more martyrs. IOW, during the vials of wrath and even after the vials of wrath, there is not one single martyr during any of that.

Yet, some would have us believe that the trumpets and vials are running in parallel when the 6th trumpet alone contradicts that since saints are still being martyred, where as, as of Revelation 15:2 no saints are being martyred anymore, and that none of the vials of wrath are being poured out before Revelation 15:2 is meaning. They are being poured out after Revelation 15:2 is meaning. Keeping in mind, Revelation 15:2 is undeniably meaning the martyring of saints have been fulfilled, no saint will ever be martyred again at this point in time.


Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


IOW, as of Revelation 15:2, it equals this--their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled--that this has been fulfilled. Then the vials start getting poured out after that.

How can anyone dispute any of this and still insist the trumpets and vials are running in parallel?

My view is, it is during the 7th trumpet when any of the vials are being poured out. None of the vials of wrath precede the 7th trumpet. Which then means that the time of the 7th trumpet couldn't possibly involve a single 24 hour day or less, since there is no way 7 vials of wrath can fit a single 24 hour period. Nor can the 7th trumpet be involving the 42 month reign of the beast like some interpreters insist. And Revelation 15:2, for one, proves it if one was able to follow what I argued throughout, above.
 
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rwb

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Meaning trumpet 1 and vial 1 are the same event. Trumpet 2 and vial 2 are the same event. So on and so on.

Let's start with these 2 verses.

Revelation 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

Revelation 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.


If these are the same event, when does the 2nd angel quit blowing his trumpet and then start pouring out his vial?

Revelation 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets

Where does it say in the text that to them were also given 7 vials? After all, vials have to be given to them first before they can pour them out. Obviously.

Revelation 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Where does it say in the text that they are also to go out and blow their trumpets?

Between these trumpets and vials, how many angels should we assume it is involving? 7 or 14?

Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.


Notice something here. This is obviously meaning the time pertaining to not worshiping the beast and then being martyred for not worshiping it, that era of time has been fulfilled and is now in the past. IOW, there are no more martyrs ever again at this point in time. And guess what? Every single vial, all 7 of them, are poured out after Revelation 15:2 is meaning, not before Revelation 15:2 is meaning.

Let's now to go to Revelation 11, which is involving the 6th trumpet.

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Does it look like Revelation 15:2 has already been fulfilled at this point, meaning as of the 6th trumpet, that there are no more martyrs? Keeping in mind that none of vials of wrath are poured out until there is first no more martyrs. IOW, during the vials of wrath and even after the vials of wrath, there is not one single martyr during any of that.

Yet, some would have us believe that the trumpets and vials are running in parallel when the 6th trumpet alone contradicts that since saints are still being martyred, where as, as of Revelation 15:2 no saints are being martyred anymore, and that none of the vials of wrath are being poured out before Revelation 15:2 is meaning. They are being poured out after Revelation 15:2 is meaning. Keeping in mind, Revelation 15:2 is undeniably meaning the martyring of saints have been fulfilled, no saint will ever be martyred again at this point in time.


Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


IOW, as of Revelation 15:2, it equals this--their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled--that this has been fulfilled. Then the vials start getting poured out after that.

How can anyone dispute any of this and still insist the trumpets and vials are running in parallel?

My view is, it is during the 7th trumpet when any of the vials are being poured out. None of the vials of wrath precede the 7th trumpet. Which then means that the time of the 7th trumpet couldn't possibly involve a single 24 hour day or less, since there is no way 7 vials of wrath can fit a single 24 hour period. Nor can the 7th trumpet be involving the 42 month reign of the beast like some interpreters insist. And Revelation 15:2, for one, proves it if one was able to follow what I argued throughout, above.

David, when we take a picture of our children, we typically do so as they grow and change into what sometimes appears to be a totally different person. The picture of a newborn babe looks quite different than they do at 5 years of age. We take pictures from differing angles, or perspectives. Even pictures of the same child at the same age in different settings, wearing different clothes and perhaps holding different objects is still the same person. We don't look at the pictures and say, wow this isn't the same child because they aren't clothed in the exact same way or setting. That's how you should try to view the book of the Revelation. It's a series of visions of the same thing at various stages of human history. And as the days grow short and time grows nearer for Christ to return, the visions are repeated again and again, seemingly different but always revealing to us in various ways how Christ has all power and authority over whatsoever evil seeks to destroy the Kingdom of God (Christ/Christians) and prevent the Kingdom of God from being complete!
 
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Davidpt

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David, when we take a picture of our children, we typically do so as they grow and change into what sometimes appears to be a totally different person. The picture of a newborn babe looks quite different than they do at 5 years of age. We take pictures from differing angles, or perspectives. Even pictures of the same child at the same age in different settings, wearing different clothes and perhaps holding different objects is still the same person. We don't look at the pictures and say, wow this isn't the same child because they aren't clothed in the exact same way or setting. That's how you should try to view the book of the Revelation. It's a series of visions of the same thing at various stages of human history. And as the days grow short and time grows nearer for Christ to return, the visions are repeated again and again, seemingly different but always revealing to us in various ways how Christ has all power and authority over whatsoever evil seeks to destroy the Kingdom of God (Christ/Christians) and prevent the Kingdom of God from being complete!

Roger, I get it about different angles. I already agree that Revelation is not chronoligical throughout. What you are arguing here ignores the points I made, that none of the vials of wrath are poured out before when Revelation 15:2 is meaning and that Revelation 15:2 is meaning there are no more martyrs at this point in time.

Why do you think Revelation 15:2 was mentioned first, then it mentions 7 vials of wrath after that? Isn't John telling us that once there are no more martyrs, it is then vengeance time, which begins with vial 1?

Since you are an Amil, let me ask this. Is there any particular reason the 7 vials can't occur during the 7th trumpet? Does it cause an issue for your view if all 7 of them do occur during the 7th trumpet?
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Roger, I get it about different angles. I already agree that Revelation is not chronoligical throughout.
So, can you tell us what parallels you see in the book of Revelation then?

What you are arguing here ignores the points I made, that none of the vials of wrath are poured out before when Revelation 15:2 is meaning and that Revelation 15:2 is meaning there are no more martyrs at this point in time.
Is that really what it's saying? If that was the case then why does Jesus say this within the description of the sixth vial?

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Obviously, believers are still on the earth at that point, so why would you think none of them could be martyred at that point?

Why do you think Revelation 15:2 was mentioned first, then it mentions 7 vials of wrath after that? Isn't John telling us that once there are no more martyrs, it is then vengeance time, which begins with vial 1?
What is your understanding of the amount of time it will take for the vials of wrath to be poured out? Do you think they are poured out in quick succession? There isn't really any indication of how much time is involved in the pouring out of the vials in the text as far as I can tell.

Since you are an Amil, let me ask this. Is there any particular reason the 7 vials can't occur during the 7th trumpet? Does it cause an issue for your view if all 7 of them do occur during the 7th trumpet?
Well, the sounding of the 7th trumpet indicates that the mystery of God is finished (Rev 10:7), and that the kingdom (or kingdoms) of the world become the kingdom (or kingdoms) of the Father and Son, and it's time for unbelievers to be destroyed, time for the dead to be judged, time for believers to be rewarded and so on. So, the only way it would not cause an issue for Amil is if the vials of wrath were all poured out in quick succession. Otherwise, what it describes as happening at the seventh trumpet wouldn't make sense since there's no indication that those things would happen days, months or years later after the seventh trumpet sounds.

Don't you believe Jesus comes at the seventh trumpet? Don't you believe that is the same as the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:51-52)?

Look at this verse:

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

You apparently think that the seventh angel sounds, but "the kingdoms of this world" don't actually "become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ" until at least multiple days (months? years?) later. Can you explain how that makes sense?
 

Marty fox

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They are the same punishments just different descriptions just like God kept repeating the same afflictions differently for Israels sins seven times over in Leviticus chapter 26.
 

The Light

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Roger, I get it about different angles. I already agree that Revelation is not chronoligical throughout. What you are arguing here ignores the points I made, that none of the vials of wrath are poured out before when Revelation 15:2 is meaning and that Revelation 15:2 is meaning there are no more martyrs at this point in time.

Why do you think Revelation 15:2 was mentioned first, then it mentions 7 vials of wrath after that? Isn't John telling us that once there are no more martyrs, it is then vengeance time, which begins with vial 1?
Revelation 15:2 mentioned before the vials is the same thing as some of the great multitude coming out of great tribulation in Revelation 7 before the trumpets of wrath begin.
 

Davidpt

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Revelation 15:2 mentioned before the vials is the same thing as some of the great multitude coming out of great tribulation in Revelation 7 before the trumpets of wrath begin.

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


Revelation 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.


Revelation 11:19 is meaning after the 7th trumpet has already sounded, right? And it appears to me that Revelation 15:5 continues where Revelation 11:19 left off. No one can then deny that all 7 vials are meaning after Revelation 15:5, assuming I am correct that Revelation 15:5 continues where Revelation 11:19 left off.

Look what Revelation 11:19 says---And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament. That sounds like this to me---And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened.

Therefore, just like I have been proposing all along, the 7 vials of wrath occur during the 7th trumpet. Revelation 11:19 has to pick up somewhere where it left off, obviously. Except it wouldn't be a different angle we are seeing. It would be a continuation. A continuation would not be a parallel. It doesn't flow into ch 12, nor ch 13, nor ch 14. But it flows into ch 15, though.
 

Davidpt

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So, can you tell us what parallels you see in the book of Revelation then?

What I'm beginning to think might be possible is, it's not so much we are looking at parallels, but are looking at continuations. If I am correct that Revelation 15:5 continues where Revelation 11:19 off, that would be a continuation not a parallel. Or maybe there are both throughout Revelation, parallels and continuations? My post before this one was in regards to Revelation 11:19. there is no way that ch just ends like that and never continues somewhere else. It is then a matter of, where does it flow into. Certainly not ch 12, 13, nor 14.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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What I'm beginning to think might be possible is, it's not so much we are looking at parallels, but are looking at continuations. If I am correct that Revelation 15:5 continues where Revelation 11:19 off, that would be a continuation not a parallel. Or maybe there are both throughout Revelation, parallels and continuations? My post before this one was in regards to Revelation 11:19. there is no way that ch just ends like that and never continues somewhere else. It is then a matter of, where does it flow into. Certainly not ch 12, 13, nor 14.
Hmmm. I don't really understand what you're saying. What would be helpful is if you were able to tell me your understanding of the amount of time you think is involved with the vials? I'm not asking for an exact amount of time because that isn't given. But, some idea.

Keeping in mind what it says occurs when the seventh trumpet sounds, would you agree that the things associated with the seventh trumpet have to at least occur shortly after the seventh trumpet sounds and not, say, weeks, months or years later?

And, I thought you believed that the seventh trumpet and last trumpet are the same and that you believe that Jesus returns at the last trumpet? If so, how can all the vials be poured out after the seventh trumpet sounds unless they are all poured out in rapid succession?

What about the seals? Do you see them as being parallel to the trumpets? You said you understand that Revelation isn't all chronological, so I'm trying to get an understanding of how you see it.
 

Douggg

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Meaning trumpet 1 and vial 1 are the same event. Trumpet 2 and vial 2 are the same event. So on and so on.

Let's start with these 2 verses.

Revelation 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

Revelation 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
Although there are similarities between the second trumpet and the second vial - they are not the same event. When there are similarities, the vials intensify what took place at the time of the similar trumpet judgement.


vials and trumpets1.jpg
 

Davidpt

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Although there are similarities between the second trumpet and the second vial - they are not the same event. When there are similarities, the vials intensify what took place at the time of the similar trumpet judgement.


View attachment 50104

The first vial, for example, involves--and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.


Obviously, this vial can't get poured out until first one beast rises out of the sea, another out of the earth, and that the 42 month reign of th beast takes place, right? You at least agree with that, correct? I don't think Amils even see that being relevant, that the first vial can't get poured until at least what is recorded in Revelation 13 is fulfilled first.

I see it making zero sense to be getting punished for something you are not even doing yet. The question then is, as of the first trumpet, has Revelation 13 already been fullfilled and is in progress, or maybe already fully in the past? If neither of those things are true when the first trumpet sounds, no way can the 1st vial be paralleling it then. Not that I think it is to begin with. Yet, others tend to think it parallels the 1st trumpet. Could they be correct? Only if the beast has already risen from the pit and fulfilled it's 42 months first. We already know that can't be so, by simply comparing to the 6th trumpet in Revelation 11.

The 2Ws are still testifying during the 6th trumpet and the beast is not even making war with them yet. That's because the beast is still in the pit, or if it's already out, it's 42 month reign hasn't begun yet. And that the first trumpet precedes the 6th trumpet. Therefore, no way can the first trumpet and first vial be running in parallel. It would contradict the events recorded in the 6th trumpet, for one.
 

Douggg

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Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


Revelation 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.


Revelation 11:19 is meaning after the 7th trumpet has already sounded, right? And it appears to me that Revelation 15:5 continues where Revelation 11:19 left off. No one can then deny that all 7 vials are meaning after Revelation 15:5, assuming I am correct that Revelation 15:5 continues where Revelation 11:19 left off.

Look what Revelation 11:19 says---And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament. That sounds like this to me---And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened.

Therefore, just like I have been proposing all along, the 7 vials of wrath occur during the 7th trumpet. Revelation 11:19 has to pick up somewhere where it left off, obviously. Except it wouldn't be a different angle we are seeing. It would be a continuation. A continuation would not be a parallel. It doesn't flow into ch 12, nor ch 13, nor ch 14. But it flows into ch 15, though.
David, the seventh angel sounding his trumpet results in Satan being cast down to earth, having a time/times/half time left - i.e. the second half of the seven years. The seven vials are spread across the second half of the seven years.




God reigns.jpg
 
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Douggg

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Obviously, this vial can't get poured out until first one beast rises out of the sea, another out of the earth, and that the 42 month reign of th beast takes place, right? You at least agree with that, correct?
Yes.
The 2Ws are still testifying during the 6th trumpet and the beast is not even making war with them yet. That's because the beast is still in the pit, or if it's already out, it's 42 month reign hasn't begun yet. And that the first trumpet precedes the 6th trumpet. Therefore, no way can the first trumpet and first vial be running in parallel. It would contradict the events recorded in the 6th trumpet, for one.

No, the two witnesses testify during the first half of the 7 years. The Antichrist will become the beast before the end of their 1260 days. And the image made of him (the beast) and setup on day 1185 of the 2520 day 7 years (1335 days before Jesus returns).

1260-1185 = 75 days. So for the last 75 days of the two witnesses will battle the beast - giving cover for the Jews fleeing to the mountains.

When the beast kills the two witnesses on day 1260, and 3 1/2 days later they come back to life and ascend to heaven - that leaves 1256 1/2 days left in the seven years. The bible simply calls that 1256 1/2 days as 42 months.

So after they are gone, the beast rules for 42 months unhampered by the called up to heaven two witnesses.
 

The Light

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Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Revelation 11:19 is meaning after the 7th trumpet has already sounded, right?

Yes
And it appears to me that Revelation 15:5 continues where Revelation 11:19 left off.
Not to me.
No one can then deny that all 7 vials are meaning after Revelation 15:5, assuming I am correct that Revelation 15:5 continues where Revelation 11:19 left off.
You would be incorrect that Revelation 15:5 continues where Revelation 11:19 left off.
Look what Revelation 11:19 says---And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament. That sounds like this to me---And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened.
Look at Rev 11 and Rev 16. The same things happen.
Revelation 11
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Revelation 16
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Therefore, just like I have been proposing all along, the 7 vials of wrath occur during the 7th trumpet. Revelation 11:19 has to pick up somewhere where it left off, obviously. Except it wouldn't be a different angle we are seeing. It would be a continuation. A continuation would not be a parallel. It doesn't flow into ch 12, nor ch 13, nor ch 14. But it flows into ch 15, though.
Revelation 8,9,10, and 11 happen in the same timeframe as Revelation 16

This timeframe is the 7th seal. The seventh seal is the Day of the Lord, the wrath of God.
 

Marty fox

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Meaning trumpet 1 and vial 1 are the same event. Trumpet 2 and vial 2 are the same event. So on and so on.

Let's start with these 2 verses.

Revelation 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

Revelation 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.


If these are the same event, when does the 2nd angel quit blowing his trumpet and then start pouring out his vial?

Revelation 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets

Where does it say in the text that to them were also given 7 vials? After all, vials have to be given to them first before they can pour them out. Obviously.

Revelation 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Where does it say in the text that they are also to go out and blow their trumpets?

Between these trumpets and vials, how many angels should we assume it is involving? 7 or 14?

Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.


Notice something here. This is obviously meaning the time pertaining to not worshiping the beast and then being martyred for not worshiping it, that era of time has been fulfilled and is now in the past. IOW, there are no more martyrs ever again at this point in time. And guess what? Every single vial, all 7 of them, are poured out after Revelation 15:2 is meaning, not before Revelation 15:2 is meaning.

Let's now to go to Revelation 11, which is involving the 6th trumpet.

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Does it look like Revelation 15:2 has already been fulfilled at this point, meaning as of the 6th trumpet, that there are no more martyrs? Keeping in mind that none of vials of wrath are poured out until there is first no more martyrs. IOW, during the vials of wrath and even after the vials of wrath, there is not one single martyr during any of that.

Yet, some would have us believe that the trumpets and vials are running in parallel when the 6th trumpet alone contradicts that since saints are still being martyred, where as, as of Revelation 15:2 no saints are being martyred anymore, and that none of the vials of wrath are being poured out before Revelation 15:2 is meaning. They are being poured out after Revelation 15:2 is meaning. Keeping in mind, Revelation 15:2 is undeniably meaning the martyring of saints have been fulfilled, no saint will ever be martyred again at this point in time.


Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


IOW, as of Revelation 15:2, it equals this--their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled--that this has been fulfilled. Then the vials start getting poured out after that.

How can anyone dispute any of this and still insist the trumpets and vials are running in parallel?

My view is, it is during the 7th trumpet when any of the vials are being poured out. None of the vials of wrath precede the 7th trumpet. Which then means that the time of the 7th trumpet couldn't possibly involve a single 24 hour day or less, since there is no way 7 vials of wrath can fit a single 24 hour period. Nor can the 7th trumpet be involving the 42 month reign of the beast like some interpreters insist. And Revelation 15:2, for one, proves it if one was able to follow what I argued throughout, above.
They are the same punishments just different descriptions just like God kept repeating the same afflictions differently for Israels sins seven times over in Leviticus chapter 26.
 

Davidpt

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You would be incorrect that Revelation 15:5 continues where Revelation 11:19 left off.

Look at Rev 11 and Rev 16. The same things happen.
Revelation 11
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Revelation 16
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.


Revelation 8,9,10, and 11 happen in the same timeframe as Revelation 16

This timeframe is the 7th seal. The seventh seal is the Day of the Lord, the wrath of God.

I can see how you might arrive at that since I have considered that as well. In order for you to be correct you first need to show how the 7th trumpet and Revelation 11:19 can be the time of the 7th vial when the time of the 6th seal is is meaning the 7th trumpet, therefore, the first trumpet couldn't possibly chronologically follow the 6th seal, something one needs it to do if their position is that the trumpets and vials run in parallel. IOW, one has to find away around all of the following I submit and argue below if they insist trumpet 1 and vial 1, for instance, are the same event. So on and so on.

I have a proposal, though. At the time of the first trumpet we are at the beginning of these things, and not, trumpet 1 follows the first 6 seals. And at the time of the 6th seal we are at the end of these things, which means that the first 6 trumpets have already taken place earlier.


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Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

(wrath of the Lamb) Revelation 11:18 shows that this in meaning at the 7th trumpet. How then can any of the first 6 trumpets also be His wrath?
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Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

(the great day of his wrath) Revelation 11:18 shows that this in meaning at the 7th trumpet. How then can any of the first 6 trumpets also be His wrath?
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Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

(thy wrath is come) Exactly what Revelation 6:17 says at the time of the 6th seal. What then follows the 6th seal? The 7th seal, right? What then follows the 7th seal? The first trumpet? How so, the fact the 6th seal is meaning the 7th trumpet? Therefore, how can the first trumpet chronologically follow the 6th seal if the 6th seal is the 7th trumpet? Where's the logic in that?
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Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
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The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, meaning any man that worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark in his forehead, or in his hand

and when do they worship the beast and his image, etc? Obviously, once a beast rises out of the sea, thus has ascended out of the pit once this happens, and that a 2nd beast rises out of the earth.

IOW, the fulfilling of what is recorded in Revelation 13 which includes the beast's 42 month reign.

Even if this 42 months isn't a literal 42 months, maybe it is maybe it isn't, it can only be meaning when everyone are all alive at the same time.

IOW, it can't be spanning hundreds of years since not everyone would be alive at the same time per a scenario like that. Premils grasp the logic in that, that everyone has to be alive at the same once the 42 month reign of the beast is underway, but I'm not convinced Amils grasp that as well.


Before I forget, I guess I need to mention why I brought up Revelation 14 to begin with. The 42 month reign of the beast takes place during the time of the trumpets. Per my view it would be meaning during the 6th trumpet. Keeping in mind that the first vial of wrath is poured out on these Revelation 14:9 is meaning.

Therefore, this alone, let alone what I already argue throughout above, should convincingly prove that the first trumpet and 1st vial can't be running in parallel. Unless one is Amil, I guess. They don't appear to reason this 42 month reign of the beast in the same manner Premils do, in regards to the timing of it. Therefore, they might find zero being convincing here.
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Spiritual Israelite

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What I'm beginning to think might be possible is, it's not so much we are looking at parallels, but are looking at continuations. If I am correct that Revelation 15:5 continues where Revelation 11:19 off, that would be a continuation not a parallel. Or maybe there are both throughout Revelation, parallels and continuations? My post before this one was in regards to Revelation 11:19. there is no way that ch just ends like that and never continues somewhere else. It is then a matter of, where does it flow into. Certainly not ch 12, 13, nor 14.
I can't see that as being the case because of how it describes what occurs at the seventh trumpet in Revelation 10:7 and Revelation 11:15-18. There's a finality to it. The mystery of God is finished at that point. The kingdom(s) of the world become the kingdom(s) of God the Father and the Son at that point. Also, Jesus returns at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:22-23;50-54) and the seventh trumpet is the last trumpet. Isn't that what you believe, also? If so, how can there be more things happening after that?
 

Davidpt

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I can't see that as being the case because of how it describes what occurs at the seventh trumpet in Revelation 10:7 and Revelation 11:15-18. There's a finality to it. The mystery of God is finished at that point. The kingdom(s) of the world become the kingdom(s) of God the Father and the Son at that point. Also, Jesus returns at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:22-23;50-54) and the seventh trumpet is the last trumpet. Isn't that what you believe, also? If so, how can there be more things happening after that?

IMO, I think I laid out some pretty decent arguments in post # 18. Maybe some of that supports my thoughts on what I said that you don't see it meaning that. You are more than welcome to go through post # 18 and what I argued and point out any holes you perceive in what I argued.

As to this thread, I never had Premil vs Amil in mind, I sorta had Prererists and Pretribbers in mind since they are insisting the first 6 trumpets are also the wrath of God. And per my view, great tribulation happens during the 6th trumpet, but I see that as satan's wrath upon the church not God's wrath during great tribulation. God doesn't have any wrath during great tribulation, His wrath follows great tribulation, not parallels it(Matthew 24:29). Unfortunately, your view of Matthew 24:21 is not the same as my view of it is. Per your view of it, it would involve God's wrath. Per my view it wouldn't. IOW, IMO, my view of Matthew 24:21 agrees with Matthew 24:29, where I see your view not agreeing with Matthew 24:29.

But then again, so are Amils such as you, I guess, are also insisting that, that the first 6 trumpets are also the wrath of God if you have the first 6 vials of wrath paralleling the first 6 trumpets. But you would be doing it for a different reasons, except I'm not sure what that reason might be? Maybe it causes a conflict with Amil if they are not running in parallel? And if so, I guess I don't know what that conflict might be at this point until you point out some of that first.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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IMO, I think I laid out some pretty decent arguments in post # 18.
This post of yours that I'm responding to is post #18, so you must mean some other post.

Maybe some of that supports my thoughts on what I said that you don't see it meaning that. You are more than welcome to go through post # 18 and what I argued and point out any holes you perceive in what I argued.

As to this thread, I never had Premil vs Amil in mind, I sorta had Prererists and Pretribbers in mind since they are insisting the first 6 trumpets are also the wrath of God.
Yes, I understand that this isn't just an Amil vs. Premil issue.

And per my view, great tribulation happens during the 6th trumpet, but I see that as satan's wrath upon the church not God's wrath during great tribulation. God doesn't have any wrath during great tribulation, His wrath follows great tribulation, not parallels it(Matthew 24:29). Unfortunately, your view of Matthew 24:21 is not the same as my view of it is. Per your view of it, it would involve God's wrath. Per my view it wouldn't. IOW, IMO, my view of Matthew 24:21 agrees with Matthew 24:29, where I see your view not agreeing with Matthew 24:29.

But then again, so are Amils such as you, I guess, are also insisting that, that the first 6 trumpets are also the wrath of God if you have the first 6 vials of wrath paralleling the first 6 trumpets. But you would be doing it for a different reasons, except I'm not sure what that reason might be? Maybe it causes a conflict with Amil if they are not running in parallel? And if so, I guess I don't know what that conflict might be at this point until you point out some of that first.
I already did point that out in post #4. Please read it again.

Please answer this question. Do you believe that the seventh trumpet and last trumpet are the same? I assume you believe Jesus returns at the last trumpet? If you believe that is the same as the seventh trumpet, then explain how it's even possible that you wouldn't see the trumpets and vials as being parallel? Unless you think the vials are poured out in rapid succession after the seventh trumpet sounds. Is that how you see it? Please answer that question so that I can have a better understanding of how you see things playing out.