ARE THEIR TWO CHURCHES OR JUST ONE?

[Wick Stick]

What we are talking about here is if there is only one church.
The Jerusalem little flock church lead by Peter did indeed also have elders, but the point is if there is only one church how could Paul be an apostle along with the twelve? To be numbered with the twelve Paul would have had to be with Christ since John's baptism.
Paul is an apostle but he is an apostle in the body of Christ which is a separate church.

The criteria to be an apostle is clear. To be an apostle, the risen Christ must appear to one, and send them on His behalf, with authority.

For the original 12, that happened in John 20.

For Paul, that happened on the Damascus road.

 

[Doug]

The criteria to be an apostle is clear. To be an apostle, the risen Christ must appear to one, and send them on His behalf, with authority.

For the original 12, that happened in John 20.

For Paul, that happened on the Damascus road.

[Acts 1:22 KJV] "Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection."

You are ignoring this qualification to be numbered with the twelve.........."Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up"...........Paul didnt meet this requirement and could NOT be an apostle along with the twelve

 

[Wick Stick]

[Acts 1:22 KJV] "Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection."

You are ignoring this qualification to be numbered with the twelve.........."Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up"...........Paul didnt meet this requirement and could NOT be an apostle along with the twelve

God ignored that requirement, so I don't feel bad ignoring it, too.

 

[Doug]

God ignored that requirement, so I don't feel bad ignoring it, too.

God didnt ignore it. God doesnt violate his Word
God made Paul an apostle NOT with the twelve but as an apostle in the church the body of Christ

 

[Wick Stick]

God didnt ignore it. God doesnt violate his Word
God made Paul an apostle NOT with the twelve but as an apostle in the church the body of Christ

Repeating yourself won't make it true.

You know how EVERYONE here knows that what you're proposing is bunko? It's because nowhere in the first 2,000+ years of the church did anyone ever believe or propose such a thing. You are, at best, making things up as you go.

 

[Doug]

Repeating yourself won't make it true.

You know how EVERYONE here knows that what you're proposing is bunko? It's because nowhere in the first 2,000+ years of the church did anyone ever believe or propose such a thing. You are, at best, making things up as you go.

Can you tell me using scripture how Paul is qualified to be an apostle along with the twelve in light of this verse.............[Acts 1:22 KJV] "Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection."

 

[Wick Stick]

Can you tell me using scripture how Paul is qualified to be an apostle along with the twelve in light of this verse.............[Acts 1:22 KJV] "Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection."

I already explained this. This verse is irrelevant to Paul's apostleship.

Paul is qualified to be an apostle because Jesus said so. Do you really want to argue with Jesus?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Can you tell me using scripture how Paul is qualified to be an apostle along with the twelve in light of this verse.............[Acts 1:22 KJV] "Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection."

You have already been given detailed answers Doug.....Scriptural answers....so you have no excuse to hold onto this error. There is one body and one gospel. You’ve lost them both. You have to accept the truth or remain lost in the lies. Your choice.

 

[Doug]

I already explained this. This verse is irrelevant to Paul's apostleship.

Paul is qualified to be an apostle because Jesus said so. Do you really want to argue with Jesus?

You explained it without scripture, I was asking for scripture that shows Paul could be an apostle along with the twelve. If there is one church then Paul could only be an apostle if he could be part of the twelve and he cant according to Acts 1:22. What scripture makes Acts 1:22 irrelevant?

 

[Doug]

You have already been given detailed answers Doug.....Scriptural answers....so you have no excuse to hold onto this error. There is one body and one gospel. You’ve lost them both. You have to accept the truth or remain lost in the lies. Your choice.

I havent seen any scripture to show how Paul could be qualified to be an apostle along with the twelve if there is just one church....show me just one please

As far as there being one church please answer these questions:

If there is one true church then the teachings of Jesus and the twelve and Paul are all for us.

[Matthew 28:19 KJV] "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"
[Matthew 28:20 KJV] "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen."............the twelve were to teach the nations to observe ALL things he commanded them. The teachings of Jesus and the twelve are one and the same.

If there is only one true church then the teachings of Jesus and the twelve apply to us. If this is so then some verses need to be addressed.

[Luke 12:33 KJV] "Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth."..........This verse would apply to whoever says there is one church. If there is one church then this command from Christ applies because ALL teachings and commands do. HAVE YOU SOLD ALL, IF NOT, WHY DOESNT THIS APPLY TO YOU?

[Matthew 24:14 KJV] "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."...........are you preaching the gospel of the kingdom? Are you preaching the prophetic kingdom on earth is at hand? Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom and commanded the twelve to preach it. The gospel was the prophetic Davidic kingdom on earth in which believing Israel will reign with Christ for a thousand years was at hand. It demanded repentance and water baptism. This command applies if there is one true church. ARE YOU PRECHING THE GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM?

[Acts 2:38 KJV] "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."..........If there is one true church then this command applies. To have sins forgiven (remitted) water baptism is required, otherwise sins aren't washed away. DID YOU GET WATER BAPTIZED? IF SO DID YOU ACKNOWLEDGE IT WAS TO WASH AWY YOUR SINS?

[Matthew 6:14 KJV] "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:"
[Matthew 6:15 KJV] "But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."........This teaching applies to the one true church. Ones sins can't be forgiven unless one forgives others. THIS COMMAND CAUSES A DILEMMA. The one true church requires us to apply all the teachings of Jesus and the twelve, but Paul is an apostle in the one church as well and his teachings and commands apply as well. Paul teaches we are forgiven ALL trespasses..........[Colossians 2:13 KJV] "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"...........How do you reconcile this?. The twelve would have to teach we need to forgive to be forgiven. Paul teaches we have all forgiveness. Who's teaching on this do we follow? The way to reconcile this is to acknowledge there are two churches with different commands and teachings.
WHOSE TEACHING ON FORGIVENESS SHOULD YOU FOLLOW? DO YOU FOLLOW JESUS AND BELIEVE YOU MUST FORGIVE TO BE FOREGIVEN OR PAUL WHO SAYS YOU HAVE ALL FOREGIVENESS?

I only gave a few scriptures as examples, but all of the teachings of Jesus, the twelve, and Paul would require application if there were only one church.

 

[Wick Stick]

You explained it without scripture, I was asking for scripture that shows Paul could be an apostle along with the twelve. If there is one church then Paul could only be an apostle if he could be part of the twelve and he cant according to Acts 1:22. What scripture makes Acts 1:22 irrelevant?

You're taking Acts 1:22 as a rule for every apostle for all time. It isn't. It's just a historical record of how the remaining 11 apostles chose a replacement. It's irrelevant to Paul.

That Jesus appeared to Paul and sent him is found first in Acts 22, but also attested throughout his letters. You already know this, though... why are you playing dumb?

 

[Doug]

You're taking Acts 1:22 as a rule for every apostle for all time. It isn't. It's just a historical record of how the remaining 11 apostles chose a replacement. It's irrelevant to Paul.

That Jesus appeared to Paul and sent him is found first in Acts 22, but also attested throughout his letters. You already know this, though... why are you playing dumb?

So if Acts 1:22 doesnt remain in effect what other scriptures can be discounted by saying they are just historical.

Paul is an apostle BUT NOT in the same church as Peter and the eleven

 

[Wick Stick]

So if Acts 1:22 doesnt remain in effect what other scriptures can be discounted by saying they are just historical.

Discounted? Using proper context GIVES it real meaning.

You trying to use it willy nilly makes it of less effect.

 

[Doug]

Discounted? Using proper context GIVES it real meaning.

You trying to use it willy nilly makes it of less effect.

[Acts 1:25 KJV] "That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place."
We are talking about there being one church, which means that Peter and the eleven are apostles in that church. Then along comes Paul and is made an apostle, and it is said Paul was just made an apostle along with them to "take part of this ministry and apostleship"

[Acts 1:21 KJV] "Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,"..............They assembled only men who were with the eleven the whole time Christ was on earth
[Acts 1:22 KJV] "Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection."
[Acts 1:23 KJV] "And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias."...........they selected two to be an apostle among them. So Paul wasnt with them the whole time Christ was on earth, but no matter, he would just be another apostle of the twelve even though no scripture is provided to explain the suspension of the restrictions to be an apostle with Peter and the apostles

The twelve would be given power to be witnesses............[John 15:27 KJV] "And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning."........they were with Christ from the beginning............Paul was to be a witness but had not been with Christ from the beginning. The twelve could be witnesses because they were with him from the beginning so once again we have to suspend a specification to be an apostle among the twelve.

 

[Wick Stick]

[Acts 1:25 KJV] "That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place."
We are talking about there being one church, which means that Peter and the eleven are apostles in that church. Then along comes Paul and is made an apostle, and it is said Paul was just made an apostle along with them to "take part of this ministry and apostleship"

[Acts 1:21 KJV] "Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,"..............They assembled only men who were with the eleven the whole time Christ was on earth
[Acts 1:22 KJV] "Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection."
[Acts 1:23 KJV] "And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias."...........they selected two to be an apostle among them. So Paul wasnt with them the whole time Christ was on earth, but no matter, he would just be another apostle of the twelve even though no scripture is provided to explain the suspension of the restrictions to be an apostle with Peter and the apostles

The twelve would be given power to be witnesses............[John 15:27 KJV] "And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning."........they were with Christ from the beginning............Paul was to be a witness but had not been with Christ from the beginning. The twelve could be witnesses because they were with him from the beginning so once again we have to suspend a specification to be an apostle among the twelve.

Again, this doesn't establish criteria for every apostle that would ever live. There's no reason to treat it that way.

Here's Paul reckoning himself among the apostles, not as belonging to some separate OTHER church:

1Corinthians 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

 

[Lambano]

Who sez Peter gets to set the specs for who's an apostle? And who sez casting lots or tossing dice is the proper way to determine God's will? Maybe God had different ideas.

 

[Doug]

Again, this doesn't establish criteria for every apostle that would ever live. There's no reason to treat it that way.

Here's Paul reckoning himself among the apostles, not as belonging to some separate OTHER church:

1Corinthians 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

[1 Corinthians 15:8 KJV] "And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time."
[1 Corinthians 15:9 KJV] "For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God."
The twelve saw the risen Christ before he ascended into heaven, Paul saw Christ after he was in heaven.
He is only saying he was the least of the apostles because he persecuted the little flock church

 

[Wick Stick]

Who sez Peter gets to set the specs for who's an apostle? And who sez casting lots or tossing dice is the proper way to determine God's will? Maybe God had different ideas.

How to respond to this? (pulls out urim and thummim)

 

[Lambano]

(pulls out urim and thummim)

One of my pastors referred to the Urim and Thummim as "God's holy dice". However, only the High Priest has 'em.