ARE THERE STILL PROPHETS AND APOSTLES?

[BLACK SHEEP]

Definitions and limitations upon what God is "allowed" to do.
I indulged in the writing of some doggerel last week, but didn't post it anywhere. This seems like as good a place as any:

The theologian said to the dogmatist, "Come let us reason how things should go."
The dogmatist said to the theologian, "Why reason? To be white as snow?"
The fool said with a smirk on his face, "You two put on quite a show!"
Then a child said, "I'll just walk in His grace, and trust in the One that I know."

And with that I bid the discussion, "farewell."

Definitions and limitations upon what God is "allowed" to do?

Like it or not...
There are limitations as to what God can and cannot do. One is....

God cannot go against his spoken or prophetic word. So if we understand His Prophetic Word FIRST, that limits the possibilities of it's fulfillment and what does and does not apply.

The word inspired means God breathed or God spoke. So the best way I know of to understand what God is saying through His prophets is to look at it in the language they wrote and spoke in.

Understanding the correct definition of words is crucial in courts and law.

The definition of words in the original texts of the bible esp. in prophecy really does help our understanding. All the languages like Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic, are more descriptive languages than English. When reading or studying an English bible, even the KJV, you can't rely that the people who have translated it got it all right and that nothing real bad was added or emitted.

The resources I have in book form is Wuest, Vines and, Strong's. I think I still have an interlinear somewhere but that's on line anyway. These resources used regularly in our studies are insightful and can reveal understanding and truth to us esp. in prophecy and certain key doctrines of the Church. That is... if you are willing to change your mind.

There are limits to nearly everything in the bible. And there are limits to what God can and cannot do like it or not. And understanding the definition of God's WORDS is important to me.

 

[jiggyfly]

Jesus looked at them intently and said, "Humanly speaking, it is impossible. But with God everything is possible."

 

[BLACK SHEEP]

Jesus looked at them intently and said, "Humanly speaking, it is impossible. But with God everything is possible."

And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

And 1161 Jesus 2424 looking upon 1689 them 846 saith 3004, With 3844 men 444 [it is] impossible 102, but 235 not 3756 with 3844 God 2316: for 1063 with 3844 God 2316 all things 3956 are 2076 possible 1415.

People without a hermeneutic constantly get fooled by the words in the text.

The word all (everything) and impossible/possible need to be looked at before you can say everything is possible with God.
This passage doesn't have an absolute or universal meaning.

Possible means to be able.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1415&t=KJV

One word for impossible means...impossible (#101)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G101&t=KJV

Another word for impossible means, and the one used in the text...(#102)
1) without strength, impotent, powerless, weakly, disabled
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G102&t=KJV

But it's the word EVERYTHING that helps us understand this well.

This is the word for ALL/Everything (pas) Mark and Mathew used in Mt. 19:26 and Mk. 10:27. It has a limited meaning.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3956&t=KJV

If the author intended to say that God can do anything he would have used the word "HOLOS" which means all, whole, completely. He did not use HOLOS he used the word pas which means individually.

This is HOLOS...
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3650&t=KJV

It's easy to get misled by simply trying to understand particulars in scripture soley in the English text. If it was possible for God to do anything, He would never had needed angels. But that opens up an entire different can of worms!

 

[In Christ]

Kaotic

I'll let you in on a little secret:

The Bible in its entirety is the Word of God.
The Bible is its own interpreter.
The Bible defines its own terms
The Bible is its own dictionary.

I know of Strong's and Young's Literal Concordances, but who is Vines? The concordances are a help but the words contained in them are not fallible

Armed with the statements above, I'll lay down some scripture texts below I believe are God's definitions of the characters of the prophetic office.

Let us not dwell on the qualifications but rather on the functions they were called to do that is, in every case, they are sent to declare the word of God

In the Old Testament...

Ezeliel 2:3-4

3. And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day.
4 For they are impudent children and stiffhearted. I do send thee unto them; and thou shalt say (declare) unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD.

Jeremiah 1:5,7

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
7 But the LORD said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak (declare).

In the New Testament...

The true believers are mandated by Jesus to go (send) into all the world to preach (declare) the Gospel.

John 20:21

“Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, so send I you.

See the word HOLY? That means they are chosen.

You have the wrong definition of an apostle and a prophet as being “chosen. The term “holy” means “to be set apart.” The twelve and the true believers stand equal in the sight of God, and as such are called “saints.” Colossians 1:26 and elsewhere.

See how things were not revealed to the sons of men but unto His HOLY apostles and prophets?

You do know "the sons of men" were the heathens of old and were the unsaved at that time, right? The same idea as in Genesis 6:2

They were chosen for building and establishing the Church. We are fellowheirs to God's promises. Not prophets

1Corinthians 3:7-13
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 ¶ For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.

1Peter 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

According to the scripture texts above, we, the believers, are builders with God and not only the apostles and prophets.

If I may borrow the words of the Lord:

John 8:43
Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

 

[BLACK SHEEP]

Kaotic

I'll let you in on a little secret:

The Bible in its entirety is the Word of God.
The Bible is its own interpreter.
The Bible defines its own terms
The Bible is its own dictionary.

I know of Strong's and Young's Literal Concordances, but who is Vines? The concordances are a help but the words contained in them are not fallible

Armed with the statements above, I'll lay down some scripture texts below I believe are God's definitions of the characters of the prophetic office.

Let us not dwell on the qualifications but rather on the functions they were called to do that is, in every case, they are sent to declare the word of God

In the Old Testament...

Ezeliel 2:3-4

3. And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, even unto this very day.
4 For they are impudent children and stiffhearted. I do send thee unto them; and thou shalt say (declare) unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD.

Jeremiah 1:5,7

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
7 But the LORD said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak (declare).

In the New Testament...

The true believers are mandated by Jesus to go (send) into all the world to preach (declare) the Gospel.

John 20:21

“Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, so send I you.

1Corinthians 3:7-13
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 ¶ For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.

1Peter 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

According to the scripture texts above, we, the believers, are builders with God and not only the apostles and prophets.

If I may borrow the words of the Lord:

John 8:43
Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Most of the verses you quote have nothing to do with the issue. They are completely taken out of context!

WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS TAKING ONE WORD THAT MEANS SENT AND TRYING TO SAY THAT BECAUSE PEOPLE TODAY ARE SENT to minister THEN THEY ARE ALSO APOSTLES OR PROPHETS! You disregard all the other verses about apostles and prophets.

The only thing true about this...

The Bible in its entirety is the Word of God. All the time in the original language!!
The Bible is its own interpreter. Sometimes! Not in English!
The Bible defines its own terms. Sometimes! Not in English!
The Bible is its own dictionary. Sometimes! Not in English!

Is this...The Bible in its entirety is the Word of God.
The book I have is called "Vines expository dictionary of New Testament Words." If you use Strong's online there is a box for "Vines entry."
Like here about the word apostle. Notice the VINES box.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G652&t=KJV

 

[iamlamad]

kaotic profit

There is one thing I am very sure of: you will not have to worry about God asking you to become an Apostle or prophet, because God will never choose you to become one as long as you hold to your belief! God does not bless people with things they make fun of or make light of. When you arrive at the pearly gates, and meet the rest of the body of Christ, you will find SO MANY are apostles, and prophets - you will stand amazed! And then you will wonder why you couldn't see it in His word.

Lamad

 

[BLACK SHEEP]

kaotic profit

There is one thing I am very sure of: you will not have to worry about God asking you to become an Apostle or prophet, because God will never choose you to become one as long as you hold to your belief! God does not bless people with things they make fun of or make light of. When you arrive at the pearly gates, and meet the rest of the body of Christ, you will find SO MANY are apostles, and prophets - you will stand amazed! And then you will wonder why you couldn't see it in His word.

Lamad

Prophesy it then! I know there are no more prophets or apostles and I prophesy it!

Today we are disciples and are able to prophesy!

I know what I see in God's Word and what I see is true!

I know how difficult it is being a Pentecostal because I've been there.

Another thing I know is that you are one of the most misled people on this forum....AND THAT'S THE TRUTH!

You suffer from the Perry Stone syndrone.

If you don't believe in the pre-trib rapture you're not going!
Your type of comment is one that I often get when people have been outdone!

 

[jiggyfly]

Kaotic, what scripture(s) do you base your opinion on?

 

[BLACK SHEEP]

I base my interpretation on the verses I quoted in the OP, the 1st century Didache, and other bible resources. I think I could elaborate more on the subject if I had more time. But the scriptural evidence is there. It's not that hard to see. Like anything else you have to connect the dots. All the Apostles and Prophets are dead in Christ.

 

[jiggyfly]

I base my interpretation on the verses I quoted in the OP, the 1st century Didache, and other bible resources. I think I could elaborate more on the subject if I had more time. But the scriptural evidence is there. It's not that hard to see. Like anything else you have to connect the dots. All the Apostles and Prophets are dead in Christ.

But none of the scriptures you quoted in the OP specifically state that the ministry gifts of apostle and prophet have ceased, do you have any others?
In his letter to the Ephesus believers Paul states that the ministry gifts which include apostles and prophets will continue until we all are matured and in unity in our faith and knowledge of Christ.

 

[sanhedrin]

Kaotic

I'll let you in on a little secret:

The Bible in its entirety is the Word of God.
The Bible is its own interpreter.
The Bible defines its own terms
The Bible is its own dictionary.

1. Where in the bible did the Lord God and Jesus Christ teach that the bible is the Word of God, verbatim?

2. The bible on its own is just a book which cannot talk in itself, how can it be an interpreter, as you claim? Who really interprets the bible, the reader or the bible?

3. The bible is not alive and does not have the capability to speak as we do, how can it defines its own terms? Who really defines something in the bible, the reader or the bible?

 

[In Christ]

1. Where in the bible did the Lord God and Jesus Christ teach that the bible is the Word of God, verbatim?

2. The bible on its own is just a book which cannot talk in itself, how can it be an interpreter, as you claim? Who really interprets the bible, the reader or the bible?

3. The bible is not alive and does not have the capability to speak as we do, how can it defines its own terms? Who really defines something in the bible, the reader or the bible?

1. Jeremiah 36:1-4

1 And it came to pass in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, that this word came unto Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2 Take thee a roll of a book, and write therein all the words that I have spoken unto thee against Israel, and against Judah, and against all the nations, from the day I spake unto thee, from the days of Josiah, even unto this day.
3 It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.
4 Then Jeremiah called Baruch the son of Neriah: and Baruch wrote from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the LORD, which he had spoken unto him, upon a roll of a book (Bible)

2. True. However, the words contained within the Bible is the living word of God.

Matthew 24:35

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works

1 Corinthians 2:13-14

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things
with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they
are spiritually discerned.

3. The Bible is alive and is the living word of God

John 7:38

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

The term "living water" is a synonym for the "Gospel."

Revelation 22:18-19

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Only the Author of the Bible can make such a claim as above.




.

 

[sanhedrin]

1. Jeremiah 36:1-4

1 And it came to pass in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, that this word came unto Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2 Take thee a roll of a book, and write therein all the words that I have spoken unto thee against Israel, and against Judah, and against all the nations, from the day I spake unto thee, from the days of Josiah, even unto this day.
3 It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.
4 Then Jeremiah called Baruch the son of Neriah: and Baruch wrote from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the LORD, which he had spoken unto him, upon a roll of a book (Bible)

2. True. However, the words contained within the Bible is the living word of God.

Matthew 24:35

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works

1 Corinthians 2:13-14

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things
with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they
are spiritually discerned.

3. The Bible is alive and is the living word of God

John 7:38

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

The term "living water" is a synonym for the "Gospel."

Revelation 22:18-19

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Only the Author of the Bible can make such a claim as above.




.

1. The Lord God was asking Jeremiah to get a scroll of book where the words of the Lord (words that the Lord uttered to Jeremiah) will be written down for the people of Israel. It is different in saying the bible is the Word of God. The bible contains records of words that God uttered in the past to the prophets and the apostles and to his disciples, miracles and other mighty works that God did then, cultures and traditions of men in the past and some letters of men addressed to their fellow believers of the Lord, and these are the things in the bible that we have to take into consideration. I raise this issue to give way to the fact the God does still call His servants today as He did in the past. There are many self proclaimed prophets and apostles today in various religious denominations and their only basis of their so called apostleship is the bible and not God or Jesus Christ who lives and exists on His own way of living/existence.

The Word of God are those words that came out from the mouth of the Lord in the days of the old, those words that come out today from the mouth of the Lord, and those words that will have to come out from the mouth of the Lord in the future. On the other hand, the bible contains some of the words that God did utter in the past.

2. The issue in this part is whether the bible can interpret itself or not and if the reader and not the bible is the one who truly interprets, this is where you have to focus your response.

3. Do not over magnify the bible in the manner that it is overshadowing the Lord himself. The Living Word of God is the Lord Jesus Christ himself and not the bible which is only a book. The bible is no match to Jesus if the Living Word of God is the issue considering the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ is the ever living God from eternity to eternity while the bible is a non-living thing/book. Try to put the bible to its proper place and render to the Lord God all the duties suited and fitted only to God.

Prophets and apostles today must come and emanate from the calling of the Lord God Jesus Christ and not just coming from an interpretation of bible verse/s or any so called fulfillment of the prophecies in the bible.

 

[In Christ]

Sanhedrin

I say this kindly, but it seems you do not have any understanding of Scripture.

Many Christians read the Bible very, very casually. They read it like it is an ordinary book and critic it as such.

I suggest you read again the scripture texts that I've offered carefully, and if you still believe your comments and statements are correct, then offer scripture texts for your rebuttals instead of offering your opinions.

Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Luke 16:17
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

The "law" in the above verses are also known as "the law and the prophets."

FYI the whole Bible is the Law Book of God given to man.

 

[sanhedrin]

Sanhedrin

I say this kindly, but it seems you do not have any understanding of Scripture.

Many Christians read the Bible very, very casually. They read it like it is an ordinary book and critic it as such.

I suggest you read again the scripture texts that I've offered carefully, and if you still believe your comments and statements are correct, then offer scripture texts for your rebuttals instead of offering your opinions.

Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Luke 16:17
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

The "law" in the above verses are also known as "the law and the prophets."

FYI the whole Bible is the Law Book of God given to man.

Here are the opinions that you quoted:

I'll let you in on a little secret:

The Bible in its entirety is the Word of God.
The Bible is its own interpreter.
The Bible defines its own terms
The Bible is its own dictionary.

None of the above can be found under the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ or God as recorded in the bible, and the verses you quoted do not in any manner directly support your above claim.

 

[ezekiel]

if i was to say i know the two witness and the 1260 is over have mercy on america and great britian father and was one but repented and these two have almost fulfilled whats wrote next is their bodys dead in the street but im just a child or the woman riding the beast also i repent of for the church should have never done so for the government rest on christ shoulders not the other way as for them hearing the father and christ dont you hear their voice his sheep hear his voice but im just a child. now will you ask me or go to the father and christ on your knees and search and you shall fine if you fill heat his words and spirit are as fire.

 

[Dodo_David]

if i was to say i know the two witness and the 1260 is over have mercy on america and great britian father and was one but repented and these two have almost fulfilled whats wrote next is their bodys dead in the street but im just a child or the woman riding the beast also i repent of for the church should have never done so for the government rest on christ shoulders not the other way as for them hearing the father and christ dont you hear their voice his sheep hear his voice but im just a child. now will you ask me or go to the father and christ on your knees and search and you shall fine if you fill heat his words and spirit are as fire.

I can't make any sense out of the above-quoted post.