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Are We Hypocrites??

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Brother Mike, May 2, 2010.

  1. Brother Mike

    Brother Mike New Member

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    Are We Hypocrites?​

    At least take a position, and affirm what you believe.

    By Brother Mike:

    Not to mention any names, but does anyone know some pretty famous preachers not practice what they preach? It's called being a hypocrite, and after the fall of their large ministry, we know God will forgive them. The thing is, whom much is given, much is required of them. I thank God, I did not start with any large ministry, I would have chucked the whole thing down the toilet. In fact, I am still building on my Character, I want things to be as perfect as I can possibly make them. Right when we think we got it all fixed, God calls something else to our attention. That is the way it is, and going to be as long as we are here. There is always something we can improve on and do better. Always more to learn, always more anointing to have.

    Now come on............any real christian wants to continue to improve and do the will of God. I know lots call themselves Christians, but man you wonder when the fruit is going to show up on their tree. There should be a scripture that says. "We should know them by their fruit." We have a real hypocrite issue in the body of Christ, judgment everywhere. I thank God I don't belong to one of those Churches, but I have to stay focused on the Kingdom of Jesus, and that includes everyone, not just my group. I love all God's people, goofy or not so goofy.

    What happens though, if your a hypocrite and don't even know it? Could that be possible?

    Being a Word of Faith person, I am going to talk about Healing. It's just one area where the Hypocrites come out of the wood work. Kinda like termites, everywhere!!!!

    While listening to a Pastor several years back, I got a good sermon on the "Refiners Fire". It was a humdinger of a sermon. This Pastor was from Israel, ans was going to be stationed in our church.
    I still got the cassette tape (Remember those?) The sermon was about God being a consuming fire, and How God allows or causes things in our life to get the dross out.
    Dross is not mentioned in the New Testament. For those who don't know, dross is impurities in Metal that is skimmed off the top after the metal is melted. The dross is then thrown away.

    Now This Pastors theory was that God uses sickness, or tragic things in our life, to remove these impurities from our character. He refereed to some OT scriptures where Dross is mentioned, and added a few NT scriptures like how we are suppose to buy the Gold from Jesus. (Gold tried in fire) He also said that our faith has nothing to do with if we are sick or not, and the devil is not the cause. God is in control of all of this, and that God uses these things to teach us and give himself glory.

    While teaching this, he mentioned that his wife had been very sick the last several years with terrible headaches. They been to the best Doctors in Israel, and found nothing and check out several specialist here in the States and nothing. He said they tried to believe God for healing, but have concluded that God was using this for a greater purpose. It was the will of God!!!

    While using the scripture about God being a consuming fire, he mentioned his wife that the pain at times was like a fire in her head. That must prove God was doing this, and God's will. At the end of the service he told all God's people to accept these things in their life, as God was going to reap great glory for them. There faith was being tried.

    What I thought about it.

    I never heard such garbage in my life. Dross in the bible was killed, not saved. Read for yourself if you like. Not only that, people God said had dross where into very evil and malevolent things. How this Pastor used that to compare to the body of Christ was a mystery to me. Yet he did.
    I figured if He really believed this way, then fine. Just as long as he believed what he taught. I did not have to agree.

    It was a couple weeks latter, the main Pastor announced that God had a break through for this Pastors wife. They found a Specialist that knew what the issue was with the wife and could fix it. Off they go to the Hospital, and the wife gets healed. It was something simple but overlooked.

    Now wait a minute!!!!! Just a week or so ago it was God building character. Why take your wife to the doctor if God is building character?? Why get out of the will of God?? The man never told us God changed his mind, He never apologized for being a hypocrite. He never even prayed about it, they found help and went. This Pastor has no character, and is a liar.

    This is not the only case, I have had more than one Christian tell me God is using sickness on them to get some glory. Yet they went to get prayer for healing, and go to the doctor. Why would anyone get out of the will of God, trying to get well, if they are convinced it's God trying to get some Glory?? Why get prayer for healing if you believe, God is using it for his own purpose?

    It's almost like these hypocrites don't even love God enough to want to stay in his will, being consistent with what they believe.

    We are told to ask God according to his will. (1 John 5:13-15)

    Not ask God, and wait and see what his will is. That is putting the cart before the horse, and any Christian should know better.

    We don't determine the will of God by getting healed or not healed. We are told to go to God knowing his will, and believe that we receive. You can't believe or receive anything if your clueless on what God wants to do.

    People don't want to be sick, yet they say it might be God's will. Well if it is God's will then try to get sicker. Be consistent with what you believe. People only believe this in church, they do what it takes to make their flesh feel better,

    So, if it is God's will to be sick so we can be taught something. Then we need to find ways to get sick. If you believe this way, go jab yourself with a infected needle full of HIV. God should be able to teach you great things with aids, you will really learn to trust him then.

    As for me?? I know better.

    Jesus Is Lord
    gregg likes this.
  2. sniper762

    sniper762 New Member

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    hyp·o·crite   /ˈhɪpəkrɪt/ Show Spelled[hip-uh-krit] Show IPA
    1.a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.

  3. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly New Member

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    Ever wonder why many of the WOF Icons have their own personal physicians that travel with them?
  4. Brother Mike

    Brother Mike New Member

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    Ughghghghgh.............. You already used that a few threads back!!!!! Come on Jiggyfly!!!! Think cleaver!!!! You know, like you use to.


    could you go back and explain what the Heck your writing about???

    Why I wast my time trying to post a debate............. beyond me.

    be blessed my Brothers.

    Jesus Is Lord
  5. jerryjohnson

    jerryjohnson New Member

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    So what would you call someone that wrote a long posts where he stated, " judgment everywhere," and then went on to JUDGE a pastor? Re-read your post in front of a mirror!
  6. Rach1370

    Rach1370 New Member

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    Brother Mike, boy, have we been over this in another post, and while I said I didn't want to fight, I cannot NOT comment on this. Especially since (after telling me you 'love' me and want the best for me) you practically spit on my thoughts and feelings. " I have had more than one Christian tell me God is using sickness on them to get some glory. Yet they went to get prayer for healing, and go to the doctor." Oh yeah, that sounds familiar......:angry:. I so love how you can make an honest longing for Gods will to be done, and his Glory to be seen as a dirty thing.

    I have to tell you honestly, I felt sick reading your post. How dare you? How many times do I have to tell you you are being so horribly rude and unfeeling, which hello, is perhaps a hypercritical response from someone who claims to love?? Hmm?

    I'm going to try explaining again, and as you seem to have so much trouble understanding, I will try and use simple phrases. I realise I am being short with you, but as you consistently ignore my feeling and show a blatant disregard for basic manners I thought perhaps a more direct response will at least have a better chance of making you care....

    *God made all and it was good
    *Humans sinned and then things were NOT good
    *Jesus came, died for us, gave us the opportunity the accept the gift of grace and therefore salvation.
    *The ONLY way to the Father is through Jesus, we love him, believe in him, ask for him to forgive us.

    Following so far?

    *Having become a Christian it behooves us to live a life that shows gratitude for our salvation, but, here's the important bit, no matter how we stumble we have all we need in Grace.
    *So we have enough faith for our salvation - that being we believe and love and repent, but according to you we need 'extra' faith for healing. Rubbish.

    *We live for Jesus, and sometimes some of us get sick. We believe Jesus can heal us, he can do all things
    *But no matter how we believe and pray we are NOT healed. You would tell us that our faith is not enough (we know you are wrong), others would tell us that God doesn't care (we know they are wrong too) and so yes, we come to the conclusion that God has a plan for us that is beyond our ken. Does that stop us from praying, believing? No? That would be a lack of faith ,eh?
    *For you to say these horrible things about us, call us hypocrites, is so nasty I cannot feel our Lord approves.
    *Do you think we believe that the actual sickness is a blessing? Oh yeah, cancer is a joy! But the road we take due to the illness, this itself is a learning process, one that can encourage, strengthen or humble - ourselves and others.
    *As for your judgmental hypothesis that seeking medical aid makes us hypocrites....God has us live in the world. We do not withdraw from it even though we are strangers here. It's like wanting God's will for your life...in general. We pray, but ultimately it is our decision to move forward...to take this job, or move to another city. Yes, we see doctors, they too are a part of God's plan (unless you consider them voodoo doctors??)
    *Consider: That pastors wife with the headaches, finds such a simple and overlooked cure...she tells of it, praises God for it, and others are made aware of such a cure...it ends up helping dozens.
    *Now of course this will not sway you at all if you believe that ALL illness, great and small should be miraculously healed by God. Do you go to a doctor at all? Virus's?, immunizations for you children? Get a wart burnt off, anything? Because if you do you're more of a hypocrite then us wouldn't you say, spouting off how wonderfully well you are through your own faith, then running to a doctor?
    *Or how about this: If God wanted us unwell, I posit that no matter how many doctors we see we will remain unwell. Unless you believe medicine is stronger than God. Or wait, does he even come into it. After all, you're talking about YOUR faith healing YOU. Ever think it's not about you? It could be about others, or even God.

    Anyway, I've ranting long enough. I just think you are pushing the bounds of, well, everything. You will never convince me, simply because I could not listen to a man who spews ridicule the whole while trying to say it's all about love. Rubbish.
    You swat people down using verses that could mean various things (and quite frankly I disagree with your interpretations), and the ones about Jesus healing - yes, they are wonderful and show a loving, understanding Lord, but why do you mulishly demand God will take suffering from all, when he asked his own son to suffer...are we more deserving than Jesus??
    As far as the rest of it goes, you don't know us, you don't know our lives, you don't know our relationships with Jesus, and yet you sit and judge. What gives you the right?? I know...you don't have it.

    Once again I will end by asking you to take a step back and to try to remember you're a Christian. You say you love, but your posts only bring nausea. Think about it, and pray. Please.
    I'm sorry I've been harsh, it makes me unconfortable, but I cannot let your posts go unanswered, I know how many good Chrisitans are out there that you are hurting and insulting.
  7. Brother Mike

    Brother Mike New Member

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    Brother JerryJohnson:

    Of course I judged!!! I was extremely mad this guy preached such nonsense. To say God was doing something, then get out of the will of God by taking his wife to the doctor??? Like I said, people only believe that garbage about God in Church, and talk about scripture with others, "Oh God may use this for his great Whatever." But as soon as they can get cured, BAM!!! they don't even believe that mess. Read it again, in Deut 28............ "Until thou be destroyed"

    Sickness is Demonic, it kills, steals and Destroys, God called it a curse!!! Ignoring scriptures is not helping you folks. Give me one scripture where sickness helps us with anything!!! Just one!!! Jesus was opposed to sickness, and He only did the will of His father.

    ah................. JerryJohnson................. I blew it!!! I should have prayed for that Pastor, I did not tell the full story..........I never said I was not in the wrong here. I judged. Your right.... I can't go back and change it.


    With all due respect sister. Look.

    You seem to have a strong opinion about things, but you lack in the scripture department. Not only that, but I don't think you care about the scripture that I have taken time to give. What scripture was it that God wants us Unwell?? You want the 50 or more that say different?

    If you want to believe the way you do, then go for it. I can't go by emotional opinion, We are told to walk by faith, not feelings or sight or how we feel.
    I know you would like me to see your point. I understand why the frustration. Get your bible, and give me the scriptures.
    I gave some examples of what people use against healing doctrines in my first post to help those that have yet to fully study this. Start there.
    Job, Paul's Thorn, Paul left Trophimus sick, and so on.

    If anything, this is what a debate forum does. If done right, one set of scriptures given, then counter scriptures. If we both believe God's word can not contradict itself, then we start to get somewhere. We look at things that could be true V.S what we believe.
    I have had to admit I was Wrong to JerryJohnson once already. Why, because he came up with a scripture I was not fully aware of. I do value God's Word. I don't mind changing "MY" Doctrine, but It's going to take some scriptures to do so.

    I deal with these arguments all the time, It takes lots of work to get garbage out and light and life in. It is a whole lot more easy to get someone that just met God to receive his goodness. A good God could never want anyone sick, not the one I serve.

    I do believe in Doctors, the scripture says "having done all to stand, then stand." That is the whole point, we are to resist sickness, and not accept it as God's Will. That was the whole point of my post.

    There is not reason to get upset, ask yourself why your upset.

    Sister, do you know what faith is? Did you not read the whole post? You think you can say it's God's will for anyone to be sick, and have faith for healing? Why would you even pray against the will of God? Why take that chance?
    Faith knows the will of God, faith never speaks against the word of God.

    You read James? Let that man ask in faith, NOTHING Wavering!!! for someone that wavers is like the wave of the sea, tossed back and forth. Let not that man think they shall receive anything from God. (James 1:5-7)

    Wavering is taking two positions. One position goes to get prayer for healing, the other positions says it might be God's will for the sickness. Healed or not healed? You where already promised you not going to receive healing.

    Why is it so hard to do as God ask? Do it his way? and not take two positions?

    Death and life are in the Power of the tongue, and Jesus said your going to have what you say. (Prov 18:21) (Mark 11:23)

    What have you been saying?

    That is all I am asking, take a stand somewhere, then come and tell me. Being a Christan, God's Word should be first, and someone that put the Word first would actually look into these things before they start getting upset at someone.

    This post was a garbage post. I wanted to see what kind of response I would get. I handled the whole thing wrong years back. Go read this one.


    Jesus Is Lord
  8. Rach1370

    Rach1370 New Member

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    Oh by the way....if I needed any proof that you're nasty, unloving and more concerned with people agreeing with you rather than God's actual will...

    "So, if it is God's will to be sick so we can be taught something. Then we need to find ways to get sick. If you believe this way, go jab yourself with a infected needle full of HIV. God should be able to teach you great things with aids, you will really learn to trust him then.

    By your own hand and heart.
    Find some compassion and then maybe people will listen to you, although since your doctrine is as wobbly as your morals, I hope not.

    We are to submit to our Father, not demand and expect.

    As Jesus once said: "Abba,[sup][/sup] Father," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will." Mark 14:36

  9. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly New Member

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    Here's something worth checking out.
    [size="+3"]Divine Healing[/size][size="+2"] [/size][size="+3"]That Wasn't[/size]
    (keep in mind most of these folks teach it is God’s will to heal you every time you are sick)

    Doyle "Buddy" Harrison, Founder of Harrison House Books, son-in-law of Kenneth E. Hagin died Nov. 1998 of cancer. He was the founder of Faith Christian Fellowship, the WOF denomination. How could he have died of cancer? He was in the "faith movement" BEFORE Copeland and others . . .

    0. E.W. Kenyon, Father of the Word of Faith Movement. One of the initial teachers of divine healing and it always being God's will to heal His children. Died in a coma brought on by a malignant tumor. Copeland teaches that Kenyon was sitting in a rocking chair, his daughter came into the room and Kenyon said "there's Jesus, good bye," and went to glory. This is a lie. He died from disease.

    1. John Osteen, mega-church pastor in Houston - his wife, Dodie got liver cancer and through the mercy of God and medical attention survived. John Osteen is more sound today than when he initially began with the renewal movement, he is probably not as much a WOF teacher as he used to be.

    2. Frederick K. Price, Word of Faith mega-church pastor in Los Angeles - his wife, Betty got cancer and was medically treated (chemo-therapy) and by the mercy of God was patched up. "[size="+0"]If you need a crutch upon or something to help you get along, then praise God, hobble along until you get your faith moving to the point that you don’t need a crutch[/size]." How Faith Works pp. 92-92
    I guess after all the years of sitting under "anointed" faith teaching by one of the movements leading faith teachers was not enough for Fred’s wife - she needed a doctor after all.

    3. Jamie Buckingham, Discipleship Movement & charismatic author - died of cancer. He was under a medical doctors care.

    4. Charles Capps, Word of Faith teacher, teaches power of our words to create reality - his wife got cancer and was medically treated.

    [size="+0"]I don’t deny the existence of disease. I deny the right of that disease to exist in this body, because I’m the Body of Christ[/size]." The Tongue p. 43.
    I guess Chuck’s wife must have not spoken the right magic words to keep the cancer from her body.5. John Wimber, Signs & Wonders Movement, author of "Power Healing," - just died from cancer. He too, was medically treated - no "power" healing for him, only chemo-therapy.
    5a. Chris Wimber, GM of Vineyard Music died Feb 6, 1998 of melanoma cancer. Mahesh is supposed to have "healed" people of cancer and AIDS - yet there was no "healing" for Chris.

    6. Mack Timberlake, Word of Faith pastor - suffering from throat cancer, getting medical attention.

    7. R.W. Schambach, Faith Healer - got a quadruple heart bypass (from a real live human doctor)

    "You don’t have any problems, all you need is faith in God."
    Maybe so, but isn't it nice that He has provided doctors too? Without them, R.W. would have long ago faced his judgment.8. Dr. Hobart Freeman, Word of Faith teacher & pastor of Faith Assembly - over 90 people died in his church following his teaching and then Hobart died due to a medically treatable disease.
    I personally respect Hobart & his misguided followers. They actually took the teachings of the WOF movement to their logical conclusion. They stood on the "promises" alone and believed in their doctrine enough to face painful deaths instead of refusing to deny what they believed. Hobart Freeman is the most chilling testimony of the complete bankruptcy of the WOF errors. If WOF teachings were true they would have certainly worked for Hobart and the 90+ people who died in "faith believing." (BTW - Hobart is a name NONE of the WOF'ers mention, he was too serious about the teachings).

    9. Joyce Meyer, the fast rising Word of Faith female preacher. On Aug. 31, 1998 on her morning broadcast admitted that she had breast cancer and was MEDICALLY TREATED. I found her admission to be very interesting.

    9. Prophet Keith Grayton, Prophetic Movement - died of the complications of AIDS He spoke at our Church in Detroit, and declared he was totally healed. He died a year or so later.

    10. Kenneth Hagin, "father" of the Word of Faith Movement - sister died of cancer, (he wears glasses as does his son). Hagin’s great faith and special anointing could not keep her on the planet or his eyesight from growing dim.
    10a. Hagin's sister died from cancer.
    10b. Hagin's wife had to go to the hospital for an operation even though Jesus "appeared" to Hagin and gave him a special anointing to heal the sick (read I Believe In Visions). If people believe Hagin is anointed then they will be healed, I guess his own family members doubt his healing powers.

    11. Robert Tilton, God's "profit" admitted he had to get special face-lifting surgery because of the danger of getting ink poisoning from laying on all the prayer requests he received. Why didn't he command healing . . .like he does for countless others over the airwaves?
  10. Adstar

    Adstar New Member

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    If one preaches perfection and fails to live up to perfection is that Hypocrisy?

    Sometimes Yes and Sometimes No

    If one preaches perfection and also preaches that perfection must be achieved. They are hypocrites. Because no person can be perfect and all fall short.


    If a person preaches perfection and preaches it as something to strive to mimic and something to hold up as what is right and proper. That person is not a hypocrite when they fail to live up to what they preach.

    Calling a Christian a hypocrite is an easy option for anyone who wishes to reject the Word of God. The pride of man motivates him to desire to be approved. When he learns of a measure that he cannot measure up to he finds a way to discredit it. He seeks a teaching/ philosophy he can measure up to, so as to maintain his pride.

    Wise is the Word that proclaims that pride comes before destruction.

    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
  11. Rach1370

    Rach1370 New Member

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    jiggyfly, awesome post! It's as I wondered about before! We all die, and death comes by organ failure of some sort!

    Brother Mike, you want versus, but I wonder what good it will do when you so obviously misinterpret them anyway. I thought perhaps I would venture back over some of the ones you delight in twisting:

    I notice you like the ESV, as do I, and I find they're comments guiding as well.

    Mark 11:20-25 20 As they passed by in the morning, they saw the fig tree withered away to its roots. 21 And Peter remembered and said to him,“Rabbi, look! The fig tree that you cursed has withered.” 22 And Jesus answered them, “Have faith in God. 23 Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass, it will be done for him. 24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25 And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.”


    Mark 11:22–23 Have faith in God. Jesus' response must have surprised the disciples. (What does faith have to do with the cursing of the fig tree?) His point is that they should trust God to remove whatever hinders them from bearing fruit for God. Moving a mountain was a metaphor in Jewish literature for doing what was seemingly impossible according to his sovereign will. (Isa. 40:4; 49:11; 54:10; cf. Matt. 21:21–22).

    Mark 11:24–25 whatever you ask. God delights to “give good things to those who ask him” (Matt. 7:11) and is capable of granting any prayer, though we must ask with godly motives (James 4:3) and according to God's will (1 John 5:14). believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. Those who trust God for the right things in the right way can have confidence that God will “supply every need . . . according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus” (Phil. 4:19), knowing that he will work “all things together for good” and will “graciously give us all things” (Rom. 8:28, 32). Some have misused this verse by telling people that if they pray for physical healing (or for some other specific request) and if they just have enough faith, then they can have confidence that God has already done (or will do) whatever they ask. But we must always have the same perspective that Jesus had—that is, confidence in God's power but also submission to his will: “Father, all things are possible for you. . . . Yet not what I will, but what you will” (Mark 14:36). « Less

    Mark 11:24–25 whatever you ask. God delights to “give good things to those who ask him” (Matt. 7:11) and is capable of granting any prayer, though we must ask with godly motives (James 4:3) and according to God's will (1 John 5:14). believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. Those who trust God for the right things in the right way can have confidence that God will “supply every need . . . according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus” (Phil. 4:19), knowing that he will work “all things together for good” and will “graciously give us all things” (Rom. 8:28, 32). Some have misused this verse by telling people that if they pray for physical healing (or for some other specific request) and if they just have enough faith, then they can have confidence that God has already done (or will do) whatever they ask. But we must always have the same perspective that Jesus had—that is, confidence in God's power but also submission to his will: “Father, all things are possible for you. . . . Yet not what I will, but what you will” (Mark 14:36)

    I enjoy your reference to James 1:5-7. It's powerful, but even more amazing when you put it with the rest of the chapter. Shall we?
    James 1:2-4 2 Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, 3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. 4 And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
    Comment: James 1:2–18 The Testing of Faith. Trials test faith in order to make spiritual pilgrimages complete. They are part of the “good gifts” (v. 17) God gives his people in order to make them whole.

    James 1:2–4 Joy in Trials. Trials are designed to produce spiritual maturity and should therefore be counted as joy.

    James 1:2 Trials are “tests” that challenge faith (vv. 2–5). When trials occur, one should count it all joy—not meaning mere worldly, temporal happiness, but rather spiritual, enduring, “complete joy” in the Lord who is sovereign over all things, including trials.

    James 1:3 Testing of your faith defines the meaning of a trial for the Christian: as Jesus was “tested” in the wilderness (Matt. 4:1–13), so believers are tested. The Greek dokimion (“testing”) denotes a positive test intended to make one's faith “genuine” (cf. 1 Pet. 1:7). The result is steadfastness, a life of faithful endurance amid troubles and afflictions.

    James 1:4 Steadfastness leads ultimately to perfection. Believers grow in holiness but are not yet perfected in it; such perfection will be realized only when Jesus returns

    James 1:12-15 12 Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

    Comment: James 1:13 God tests his people (e.g., Abraham, Genesis 22; Israel, Ex. 16:4; Hezekiah, 2 Chron. 32:31) so that their character is strengthened, but he never tempts (i.e., lures people into sin). Since God cannot be tempted with evil, and he is unreservedly good, he would never entice human beings to sin or seek to harm their faith. Tempted (Gk. peirazō) is the verb form of the noun translated “trial” (Gk. peirasmos) in James 1:12, but the context shows that different senses of the word are intended. God brings trials in order to strengthen the Christian's faith. He never tempts, however, because he never desires his people to sin. Christians should never blame God when they do wrong.

    James 5 :7-11 7 Be patient, therefore, brothers, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, being patient about it, until it receives the early and the late rains. 8 You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. 9 Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the door. 10 As an example of suffering and patience, brothers, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. 11 Behold, we consider those blessed who remained steadfast. You have heard of the steadfastness of Job, and you have seen the purpose of the Lord, how the Lord is compassionate and merciful.

    James 5:13-18 13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. 18 Then he prayed again, and heaven gave rain, and the earth bore its fruit.

    Comment: James 5:13–14 There is another ABA pattern in these verses (cf. note on 3:1–4:12). James begins with those suffering (A), then addresses the cheerful (B), and concludes with those who are sick (A). He alludes back to 1:2, where the one under trial was to “count it all joy.” Though “sick” (Gk. astheneō) can also mean “to be weak” (even spiritually weak, as in Rom. 14:1), when used (as it is here) without any qualifiers, it usually refers to physical sickness. Elders were pastors and overseers (cf. Acts 20:17, 28; Titus 1:5, 7; 1 Pet. 5:1–2), known for wisdom and maturity, who functioned as leaders in the churches. This provides evidence for a plurality of elders in all the churches to which James was writing, for he simply assumes a sick person could call for “the elders of the church.” Some think that anointing . . . with oil was medicinal or sacramental (as in Roman Catholic extreme unction at death), but it is best seen as a symbol representing the healing power of the Holy Spirit to come upon the sick person (cf. the use of “anointing” for symbolic consecration to God's use and service, both in the OT [Ex. 28:41] and in the NT [Luke 4:18; Acts 4:27; 10:38; 2 Cor. 1:21; Heb. 1:9]). In the name of the Lord means it is God, not the oil, that heals.
    James 5:15 the prayer of faith. Not the faith of the sick person but the faith of those praying. In this instance, James mentions no requirement for the sick person to exercise faith, only that he call for the elders. Christians who are ill often find personal prayer difficult. Will save perhaps carries a double meaning here: (1) the sick person will be physically healed (one meaning of Gk. sōzō), and/or (2) the sick person may also experience spiritual salvation (another meaning of Gk. sōzō), or growth in the blessings of salvation (sins . . . forgiven). As seen throughout the Gospels, Jesus healed both physically and spiritually, and the same double connotation may be present here as well. James is not teaching that all illnesses will be healed if people would simply call on the elders, or try to make themselves have enough faith, or pray with enough conviction. Healing, when it does come, is always a gift from God, who is sovereign over all circumstances, including sickness and health. It does not follow, therefore, that lack of faith on the part of the sick person is the reason that the sick person may not be healed. (On the gifts of faith and of healing, see note on 1 Cor. 12:9.) Some interpreters suggest that James is referring to the promise of the resurrection rather than physical healing. If, in the phrase “if he has committed sins,” implies that not all sickness is connected to specific sins, though James seems to expect that some sickness is (cf. 1 Cor. 11:30).

    2 Corinthians 12:7-10 7 So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

    2 Cor. 12:7 a thorn was given me (by God, who is sovereign over all things) in the flesh, a messenger of Satan. The nature of this “thorn” or “messenger” is much disputed. The most frequently proposed possibilities include: (1) Paul's inner psychological struggles (such as grief over his earlier persecution of the church, or sorrow over Israel's unbelief, or continuing temptations); (2) Paul's opponents, who continued to persecute him (cf. Num. 33:55 and Ezek. 28:24, where thorns refer to Israel's enemies); (3) some kind of physical affliction (possibly poor eyesight, malaria fever, or severe migraine headaches); or (4) some kind of demonic harassment (“a messenger of Satan”). Most commentators cautiously prefer some form of the third view, since “thorn in the flesh” would seem to suggest a physical condition.

    2 Cor. 12:7 a thorn was given me (by God, who is sovereign over all things) in the flesh, a messenger of Satan. The nature of this “thorn” or “messenger” is much disputed. The most frequently proposed possibilities include: (1) Paul's inner psychological struggles (such as grief over his earlier persecution of the church, or sorrow over Israel's unbelief, or continuing temptations); More »

    2 Cor. 12:8 Three times indicates that Paul has now finished praying for the thorn's removal, having received his answer from Christ (v. 9; cf. Jesus' threefold prayer in Mark 14:32–41).

    2 Cor. 12:9–10 My grace is sufficient. Paul says that God's grace “is sufficient” (in the present tense), underscoring the ever-present availability and sufficiency of God's grace, for Paul and for every believer, regardless of how critical one's circumstances may be (cf. Rom. 8:31–39). my power is made perfect in weakness. Paul was not allowed to speak about his heavenly revelations (2 Cor. 12:4, 6) but he quotes Christ's declaration (“My grace is sufficient”) to underscore that his earthly weaknesses (not his revelations) would be the platform for perfecting and demonstrating the Lord's power (see chart). This is the main point of vv. 1–13 and the foundation of Paul's self-defense throughout 2 Corinthians.

    I could go on, but that's a good start. Since we were getting no where before I have left out my own thoughts. These are all from trusted bible scholars, if you disagree with them, you disagree with many many people.
    You can answer if you choose, but bring something other than your opinions on these passages, as I believe you've shown quite abundantly that your opinions are faulty.
  12. Brother Mike

    Brother Mike New Member

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    Kenneth Copeland Age 74 still flying his jet. Only missed 3 meetings in over 30 years of ministry due to a hurt back. Treated by Don Colbert.

    Pretty amazing. Do I need to go on?


    My gosh Jiggyfly, come up with your own opinions.

    I don't even think I mentioned it wrong to see Doctors, My circle does not preach against it??

    How old was Buddy Harrison?

    How Old are these people you mentioned? The fact is they survived the cancer, God is faithful.

    They did not mention Smith Wigglesworth who's wife died. We are not be be led by people, but by scriptures.

    What scripture says that sickness won't attack???

    God said no weapon formed against us shall prosper.......... He never said the weapon would not be formed. Even though these people did see a doctor, they lived!!!!

    Who said we dictate on how God heals?? He will though, for those that believe. I did not say that, Jesus did.

    I have laid hands on the sick, Healed instantly, others over time, with Doctors, some die. I am not the Healer, and none of these people are the healer, but bless God, they have had long successful ministry.

    R.W. Schambach almost 60 years of serving God?? They mention him???

    Now, look at the list of those that said they won't make it, said it must be God's will for sickness...........Dead by the millions.
    What you believe Matters.....................

    Don't tell me you don't know someone from the past that always confessed something like they would die at age this or this might happen and it not happen. I know of a few right now I can think of. One kid always confessed he would die in a car wreak at a young age.......dead.........car wreak. Self fulfilled prophecy? You have what you say......... Jesus said that.

    My own son, Cancer.....................on day 9 and they told me he was not going to make it though the night...........I just laughed!!!! The devil is not big enough, and I am not moved by evil reports............He was at Chicago Memorial Hospital for Children. The best of the best worked there, and nothing they could do. My son was blue all over from blood vessels bursting under his skin.

    I was on Parole at the time. My wife was with him. I got a call on day 9 with the report. This cancer spread very fast. From a fever just 2 weeks ago, to this.

    What did I do? I just thanked God that he is faithful and his word is true. I thanked God that He said with long life I'll satisfy my son.

    On day 10 my wife called crying, my son had been getting tested over and over. Bone marrow and spinal tap. They could not find one cancer cell in his body. They were stumped.

    I Got the doctor report at home. "Startling response to Chemo treatment"

    The nurse there was also amazed, she cared for my son and noticed a Kenneth Copeland cassette my wife had.

    She told my wife.............................. I have seen lots of children die. Looking at your cassette tape, I know why your son did not, and I have seen many other family's that believe like you do get these results.

    That came from a nurse, that deals with this all the time.

    So, Brother........... you came to late for me.................What you believe and speak can save or kill you. Why is it so hard for God to get people to agree with him???

    Be blessed though.......and until next time............ my Brother Jiggyfly.......

    Jesus Is Lord.
  13. Brother Mike

    Brother Mike New Member

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    I am more concerned with people getting the Victory Jesus bought and paid for Sister......... I already have tons of people that don't agree with me, like my Brother Jiggyfly. Well, sometimes........ known each other for a couple years or so.

    The Holy Spirit did speak to me though.............. (not a voice but inside.)

    So, I have to just step back, and say to you that I handled this all wrong, and my attitude was all wrong.
    As the Lord was dealing with me.............. any chance of you actually looking up the scriptures I gave, and any possibility of what I was trying to get across being true, was ruined by my horrible non loving, non anointed approach.

    I know tons of scriptures, but so Does Jiggyfly, and others around here. I used that knowledge wrongly, and it's not even my knowledge I used wrongly but the grace of God that gave it to me.

    I have no excuse..............Ya, this is a debate forum, and were suppose to debate I guess, though I have scripture that says different.......... healing is not the subject you want to hurt someone with. Lets talk about how old the earth is........ who cares.

    I ask that you forgive my total disregard for God's love. This is not a subject we should be playing around and with.

    God bless..........

    Jesus Is Lord (I'll try to act more like he is in the future.)
  14. Rach1370

    Rach1370 New Member

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    Brother Mike, thanks. I truly don't want to fight, I think it's all wrong, especially with what both you and I are trying to achieve here.
    I don't expect you'll change your mind, but Im ok with that, thats totally your choice.
    But it's also my choice to believe as I do, and I feel its not ok to tear someone down for that choice. So thanks for apologizing...see I'm already more inclined to debate with you!!!
    So, trying to leave the nasty accusatory from both our posts (yes, sorry, I too was starting to slug through the mud) Im happy to discuss bible passages and there meanings with you...hopefully we both might learn something huh?
  15. jerryjohnson

    jerryjohnson New Member

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    I agree with you here, I would just ask when you copy text like this please increase the size for us old guys with less then prefect eyes. Even with bifocals I have trouble reading the print.
  16. Rach1370

    Rach1370 New Member

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    Sorry jerryjohnson, I'll certainly do that in the future. I made it small to try and reduce the length of the post! but i suppose an unreadable post is worse than a long one!!

    oh hey, if you use firefox you can just hold down the control key and scroll your mouse wheel up or down...it makes the print bigger or smaller....really helps for me, and im only 30!!!
  17. jerryjohnson

    jerryjohnson New Member

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    Ya, I asked God to heal my eyes, He said get glasses.
  18. Brother Mike

    Brother Mike New Member

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    I see that you agree with with Rach's statements (From where they come from? It is not known)

    From my reading of this, The will of God must be known. Everything seems right, and in context. However, what is meant by Praying like Jesus? He did know the will of God concerning healing, after all, He healed all, and turned not one away. Doing the will of his father.

    Now, Jesus prayed, not my will but your will be done. Was Jesus having a healing meeting in the Garden? NO, wrong scripture, and out of context. Not only that, Jesus did know the will of God in the Garden. It is written that he Was obedient unto death.
    There is a place however in the bible. Where the same type of thing was asked. Lord if it be your will, Heal me.

    Luk 5:12 And it came to pass, when he was in a certain city, behold a man full of leprosy: who seeing Jesus fell on his face, and besought him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

    The NLV says......."Lord if your willing"
    The NLT says "Lord if you want to."
    The WNT says "sir, if only you are willing".

    Sounds like a lot of prayers today. "Lord, You can do all things, if it be your will, please heal me.," Only in this case, this is a correct scripture for healing. The Lord Jesus answered this man. The same Lord Jesus that was obedient to God, and did the will of God only. Gave what his will was, concerning healing. He said ......


    Now we just need to find those scriptures where Jesus somehow changed............That some how He is different than the Jesus we see in the Gospels. My, there are none..........and God is no respecter of persons......

    So, we can boldly believe that we do receive healing, because we know his will, don't we.

    The book of James............Trials......temptations.............. No Greek word for sickness here.........strange that it would be used to prove a point. Guess we just add it somewhere??? What about context?

    Trials are not produced by God, and God does not tempt anyone. Must be Mr. Devil. We are told to resist Mr. Devil steadfast in faith. (Peter) What is James referring to though. What kind of temptations. What kind of trails.

    In fact, James said that we are tempted (tried) when we are drawn away by our own lust. Enticed............(James 1:14)

    Does resisting sin, produce something..... Of course it does. We are not talking about car crashes or sickness here though. We are told though all sin produces death..........

    Nothing about sickness here............ What was the suffering for???

    Jas 5:10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.

    We were told by Jesus, that if they persecuted him, then we should also expect it. Jesus was not sick though.

    Way to long to post the quote.......... I agree fully though. The person that is being prayed for is not involved.

    Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

    I guess James must have been confused. SHALL RAISE HIM is a pretty strong statement. How could have James gotten this wrong?? Or did someone just add a bunch of unbelief in??

    Paul's Thorn..................Eye's????????? Where is that at? Oh, must be in Galatians somewhere.
    I am not sure how Messenger of Satan can confuse anyone. A devil.........with a message..........My bible is in English, so I have no problem with this.

    What would that message be? To blind the eyes and minds of the people from the glorious Gospel..........That should be a scripture somewhere. That is what devil's do.....................Mark 4:15

    What was Paul's issue........... why use a statement like thorn in the flesh....... Could it be, Paul knew and quoted the Old testament...........Na........to simple. Has to fit my doctrine somehow. What did Paul know about the Old testament anyway.

    Num 33:55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.

    What did Paul say?

    2Co 12:10 So for the sake of Christ, I am well pleased and take pleasure in infirmities, insults, hardships, persecutions, perplexities and distresses; for when I am weak [[4] in human strength], then am I [truly] strong (able, powerful [5] in divine strength).

    We take one word, our of the others Paul said, and make a Paul was sick doctrine out of it. One Word, out of insults, and hardships, and persecutions........... the word infirmities, which can mean in Greek sickness, but can also mean being Weak....... Which was the context of Paul's statement.....

    Where I am Weak, He is Strong.................How has Hermeneutics failed us this time???

    Surely Brother JerryJohnson..... did we prove anything about the Will of God to heal here???

    Be extremely blessed everyone!!!!!

    Jesus Is Lord
  19. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly New Member

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    I agree with God that He uses sickness and suffering of all sorts to accomplish His will in our lives, just as the scriptures and testimonies of the saints bear out (the man born blind). I believe in all the gifts of the HolySpirit and have witnessed many healings too, but I also disagree with Kenneth's opinion of the scriptures and with much of what he says God says. God is sovereign and does not need us to agree with Him or invite Him to do anything in the earth. I am convinced that nothing can separate me from God's love not even my opinionated beliefs or words, absolutely nothing.

    I used to be very involved with many of the WOF teachers when I was in the FGBMI so I am not ignorant of what they teach or how they act, I have personally witnessed some things that I consider very carnal, immature and simply selfish. I have seen the scriptures twisted concerning Christ earthly ministry to justify worldly gain. They boast of being rich, yet Jesus said it is hard for a rich man to enter heaven. No, I think I will stick with the teachings of those, who, through trials and suffering, self has been crucified and they have matured spiritually, being content. Those like T.Austin Sparks, A.W.Tozer, A.W. Pink, and A.B. Simpson.

    I posted the copy/paste because I found it interesting , but I am not sure it is factual. People can do their own research.[​IMG]
  20. Brother Mike

    Brother Mike New Member

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    I checked the post, and it is factual. The content was all wrong though. These people were up in their years... It's what they did not mention that is the issue. Brother Hagin had been in Ministry for years and years, with no illnesses. We are talking since early 1940's. yet they pick on his wife that did not teach Healing. They also mention His glasses. It seems that Brother Hagin did not care about having to wear them. Charles Capps same thing, been in Ministry for years, no sickness or setbacks........ Look at brother Copeland...... missed just one set of meetings because of pain in his back. Over 30 years of traveling all over the Planet..........Still flying a jet, and still all over the planet at 74.

    Kenneth did not do what he preached, He just said back be healed and kept Going. It Got so painful, He ask the Lord finally about it, and the Lord told him to get a Doctor.

    Even Jim Baker who lives up the street from me........... He had gotten Cancer in Prison.

    The ones that I notice is not the ones that are up there in years, where the devil is screaming at them that they are old, and going to fall apart. Its the young WOF peeps that die at a early age.

    We had one of those cases, just recently................A large REHEMA bible school in the south pacific. We helped them buy a boat, and we see him in Church, then get a announcement he is dead. WHY???????

    I think it is important to remember there is a difference in Anointing to teach and speak by the Holy Spirit, and a difference in actually getting all the revelation of what your teaching. It's easy to teach that God heals, and what to do, it's another thing taking the time to do it yourself. Anyone that has been under that teaching anointing knows they give revelation from the Holy Spirit, and it's not Revelation the person speaking had really known. Teachers are just that, teachers............ They should walk in everything they teach, but there is so much of it, where people can hold on to that one message that made them free.

    Thank you Jiggyfly for your post, I know you mentioned being part of the WOF movement a few years back, and I know you has seen wonderful miracles such as I have. I have to disagree with you of course on God using sickness to teach us something, but I suppose we can't ignore scriptures where Paul turned someone over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the mans spirit should be saved.

    There is lots to learn still.

    Jesus Is Lord