Are we reading the same Bible?

[Pelaides]

This is a Christian forum not a political one.

By the way. I'm a liberal! So I'd appreciate it if you'd delete your prejudiced outlook on other Christians!

As far as the OP goes I actually don't agree with any of them. But #4 is the closest. Why?

I've always questioned everything over and over. I've found that the trinity doctrine is not completely correct. It's kind of peculiar that there would be a "nameless" third person of a trinity. And I believe God is greater than Jesus because Jesus said so himself.

What is or who is the Holy Spirit. I think that the Holy Spirit is present in all of God's angelic creation. They are the embodiment of God's Spirit which is directed by these angels. So in essence God's Spirit is His power but it's directed by 7 orders of angels who are the seven Spirits of God. Angels have a hierarchy and are organized into several orders, or "Angelic Choirs". They are also mentioned in the books of Enoch which I believe should be included in the bible.

Revelation 1:4 - John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Revelation 3:1 - And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Revelation 4:5 - And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 5:6 - And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

The seven may be...

Cherubim
Dominions
Powers
Seraphim
Principalities
Archangels
And regular angels.

So God's Spirit is in essence more than one "person."
The literal Presence of Christ is also a person of God's Holy Spirit.
That's the way I see it and don't expect anybody to agree with me.

Your beliefs are unique,I have never heard anything like this before.

and vice versa I'm sure.

You need a lesson in basic manners. Christian manners.

You are not making any sense which is what usually happens when a person gets angry and wants to 'prove' someone else wrong even at the cost
of their witness for Christ.

I'm not the desperate. You just go ahead then and keep making accusations but remember that as you judge, you in turn are judged.

Have a nice life.

I am not angry,I just dont think that you have the right to denounce other christians.

OK. This is what Luke 16:19-31 says.





Again, the word "Hell" is Norse in origin, which is why the New Testament authors didn't use it.

Sometimes, the New Testament writers used the word "Hades" (in the Greek: ᾅδῃ ).

Sometimes, the New Testament writers used the word "Gehenna" (in the Greek : γέενναν ).

Some English versions of the New Testament have translated "Gehenna" and "Hades" as "Hell", just as those versions translate numerous Greek words into English.

Word games?

 

[Dodo_David]

OK. This is what Luke 16:19-31 says.

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Again, the word "Hell" is Norse in origin, which is why the New Testament authors didn't use it.

Sometimes, the New Testament writers used the word "Hades" (in the Greek: ᾅδῃ ).

Sometimes, the New Testament writers used the word "Gehenna" (in the Greek : γέενναν ).

Some English versions of the New Testament have translated "Gehenna" and "Hades" as "Hell", just as those versions translate numerous Greek words into English.

Word games?

Word games? No. I am just giving technical information.
The word "Hell" is neither Hebrew nor Aramaic nor Koiné Greek in origin.

 

[Rocky Wiley]

This is a Christian forum not a political one.

By the way. I'm a liberal! So I'd appreciate it if you'd delete your prejudiced outlook on other Christians!

As far as the OP goes I actually don't agree with any of them. But #4 is the closest. Why?

I've always questioned everything over and over. I've found that the trinity doctrine is not completely correct. It's kind of peculiar that there would be a "nameless" third person of a trinity. And I believe God is greater than Jesus because Jesus said so himself.

What is or who is the Holy Spirit. I think that the Holy Spirit is present in all of God's angelic creation. They are the embodiment of God's Spirit which is directed by these angels. So in essence God's Spirit is His power but it's directed by 7 orders of angels who are the seven Spirits of God. Angels have a hierarchy and are organized into several orders, or "Angelic Choirs". They are also mentioned in the books of Enoch which I believe should be included in the bible.

Revelation 1:4 - John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Revelation 3:1 - And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Revelation 4:5 - And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 5:6 - And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

The seven may be...

Cherubim
Dominions
Powers
Seraphim
Principalities
Archangels
And regular angels.

So God's Spirit is in essence more than one "person."
The literal Presence of Christ is also a person of God's Holy Spirit.
That's the way I see it and don't expect anybody to agree with me.

hi kaotic,

It appears you are one who studies to show thyself approved of God.

 

[BLACK SHEEP]

hi kaotic,

It appears you are one who studies to show thyself approved of God.

I want to thank you and Palaides as I consider them both affirmative replies.

God bless,

 

[[email protected]]

You are anthropomorphizing the word "person" as to be a physical being, and that is where you err. "Person" (in this sense) refers to the "personality" as a separate and distinct being (be it spirit or corporeal) contained in the Godhead. The Father is a distinct "person", the Son is a distinct "person" and the Holy Spirit is a distinct "person" yet, mysteriously, all contained in the single entity "God".

The Father, the Son, and the Spirit all are separate persons, can converse with one another, love one another, and perform different functions with respect to themselves and with us.

So number 4 is not at all strange, is in fact scriptural, and you only err in your limiting definition of person to an entity possessing a corporeal nature.

***

I wanted to respond to your post here because I agree with all the others who state that #4 is the only true statement in the list. The Holy Spirit is a person.

While your definition of the term person is very erudite (and I have no problem with it whatsoever), I would like to submit to you that many of those who deny the Holy Spirit is a person also deny there is a Holy Spirit at all. The two positions are usually linked.

Muslims, for example, deny any 'person' or spiritual equality with Allah. No Jesus as Son and no Holy Spirit as a third manifestation of the Godhead.* I suspect that many scoffers have picked up on this denial and twist it to their own ends. Certain atheists, for example, deny anything metaphysical.

Many Biblically illiterate folk who call themselves Christians have big problems with the Trinity. While they have no problem with members of the Federal government using forked tongues to speak out of both sides of their heads, they choke on the Biblical testimony of the Trinity.

BigAndy is quite correct as far as his post goes, he just forgets that sometimes a university professor has to use one syllable words to explain complex matters to freshmen students (present readership excepted).

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) Islamic theology admits to Jesus being a historic figure and even that he (note lower case) will return again in the last days. Muslim eschatology suggests that Jesus (Isa in the Qur'an) will be the Beasts prophet and that the Christian version of Jesus will be the prophet of the devil (exactly as He was accused of 2,000 years ago).

 

[Guestman]

Yes, Jesus is the only begotten Son of God...HOWEVER...he was also present at creation...John 1...He is equal with God and IS God contrary to what JW's believe, Mormon's believe and
various other sects that have their own private interpretation




No. The Holy Spirt IS a person and not just an active force as the JW's teach. Jehovah's witnesses (a strange name considering their witness and testimony is incorrect)
have their own interpretation that is an incorrect translation from the original. As well, the Watchtower magazine is replete with corrections and ongoing 'mistakes' that
receive correction down the road.

Of course God calls the Holy Spirit His Spirit because He is proceeding from God as opposed to the spirit of a person or an evil spirit.

If a person does not believe in the Trinity, then they are not Christian by defintion. Muslims state they believe in God...but most certainly not God as Christians believe.

In the same sense, Mormons and others believe in God but NOT God of the Bible. There is not one translation that agrees with the translators of the JW Bible, the
New World Translation. Not one.

You use the same "platform" that so many others use, that of making a blank statement without so much as one thread of evidence from the Bible, as if your statement has merit. And you are attacking Jehovah's Witnesses rather than proving what the Bible really teaches, just as so many others have. Stick with the two points at hand. That Jesus is not equal with his Father is seen from his own words: "The Father is greater than I am."(John 14:28)


Furthermore, the apostle Paul wrote, some 20 years after Jesus death, that "in turn you belong to the Christ; Christ, in turn, belongs to God."(1 Cor 3:23) Just Christ Jesus is greater than us, so likewise, God is greater than Christ. In addition, Paul says that "the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of the woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God."(1 Cor 11:3)


Thus, just as the man is over the woman both in marriage and in the Christian congregation, and Jesus is head over the man, so likewise God is head over Jesus. In giving details about his invisible "presence" that Jesus likened to the "days of Noah", he said concerning the "great tribulation": "Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father."(Matt 24:36) Hence, Jesus again shows his inequality with God, telling four of his apostles that "only the Father" knows exactly when the "great tribulation" would begin, excluding himself of this.(also see Acts 1:7)


Jesus told the Jews that "I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak."(John 12:49) How could Jesus be equal to God and yet be "sent" as well as ' given a commandment ' of what to say ?


And at 1 Corinthians 8, Paul says that "there is actually to us (Jesus genuine disciples) one God the Father, out of who all things are......and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through who all things are."(1 Cor 8:6) Reasonable people can see there is a clear distinction between Jesus and his Father, Jehovah God, that they are not equal.


That the holy spirit is not a person can be seen from in what John the Baptist said concerning the Christ: "I, for my part, baptize you with water because of your repentance.....That one will baptize you people with holy spirit and with water."(Matt 3:11) Just as water is not a person, so neither is holy spirit. That it is controlled by Jehovah is seen at Zechariah 4:6, in which God says to Zechariah: 'Not by military force, nor by power, but by my spirit." Jehovah could not call the holy spirit "my spirit" if it was "God".


Though being called by the pronoun "he" (as at John 16:13), does this make the holy spirit a person ? No. Why ? Simply put because other things such as wisdom is spoken of as having "children".(Luke 7:35) Is wisdom a person because Jesus said that it has "children" ? Or what about death ? It is spoken of as "ruling as king from Adam down to Moses" at Romans 5:14. Does that make it a person ?


It was not until the 4th century C.E. that the holy spirit was seen as a "person" of the "Godhead". Why ? Because it was not taught by Jesus nor his apostles, but was conceived by apostate men just as Jesus warned at Matthew 13:24-30.

In the Bible, non-living things are at times attributed with human characteristics, but does this make them a person ? No. This is where the churches fail considerably in their understanding of the Bible.

 

[Niki]

The Bible indicates that those who deny Christ are of the spirit of anti-Christ. That is not a mistake I care to make. The JW's can play with words all day long...still won't make them true.

 

[Pelaides]

The Bible indicates that those who deny Christ are of the spirit of anti-Christ. That is not a mistake I care to make. The JW's can play with words all day long...still won't make them true.

If you deny Christ was the Messiah,that makes you an antichrist,The idea that Christ was fully God can be debated,In my opinion.

 

[Niki]

Go for it. I wonder why some cannot see that another 'just a man' could not possibly die for the sins of mankind when scripture plainly teaches that every single
human being born is born sinful.

So debate away, but you don't really understand the cross or sin IMO if that is your stand.

 

[Pelaides]

Go for it. I wonder why some cannot see that another 'just a man' could not possibly die for the sins of mankind when scripture plainly teaches that every single
human being born is born sinful.

So debate away, but you don't really understand the cross or sin IMO if that is your stand.

No that is not my stand.Jesus was annointed king of this world by God his father,that is what i believe.

 

[AndyBern]

The Bible plainly shows Jesus to be God...

Jehovah is the First and the Last: Isaiah 44:6
Jesus is the First and the Last: Revelation 1:17-18, 2:8

There can be only one First and one Last.

 

[day]

The Son is begotten (not created) by the Father.
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father.
In both cases they receive their being from the Father, which makes Him the source of all being, including theirs.

Both the Son and the Holy Spirit are sent by the Father to accomplish his purposes.
The Father is never "sent" which means His authority ranks the highest.

The inner workings of the Trinity is beyond the understanding of man.

To receive or reject the Son or Spirit is to receive or reject the Father. Honor and worship given to the Son or Spirit is given through them directly to the Father. As far as man is concerned, while Three in operation, they are One in essence.

 

[Rocky Wiley]

The Bible plainly shows Jesus to be God...

Jehovah is the First and the Last: Isaiah 44:6
Jesus is the First and the Last: Revelation 1:17-18, 2:8

There can be only one First and one Last.

Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

When was God dead?

 

[The_highwayman]

Jesus was a man and he was God. As a man he did many things as a man, praying to God is one of them. As God he healed the sick, cast out devils, etc.

As a Christian, I have God in me but I still make human decisions. Even though Jesus had the fullness of God in him, he also made human decisions. Just as Adam, he could have sinned!

I am a simple man and I read the bible simply for what it says, and it says "God is one, and there is no other beside him". I don't change that scripture to say any more or less.

Niki,

Don't be like Eve and change scripture to say what you want it to say.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit.

Rocky,
You said: Jesus was a man and he was God. As a man he did many things as a man, praying to God is one of them
Are you saying Jesus prayed to himself here?

You said: Jesus was a man and he was God.
How does this reconcile with John 1.14 & Phil 2.5-12?

You Said: . As God he healed the sick, cast out devils, etc."
How does this reconcile with Isaiah 11.2, Isaiah 61.1-4, Luke 4.18-19 & Acts 10.38?

Jesus did not do what he did because he was God, or the son of God. Jesus did what he did because he was anointed by God with the Holy Ghost and with power, and God was with him, not in him[see above]. This is how he healed the sick, casted out devils, destroyed yokes , lifted burdens and changed lives.

This is a point that many christians today fail to see or understand and is why they do not walk a walk of victory.

Jesus is Flesh, [john 1.14] and anyone who says he is not has the spirit of anti-christ[1 John 4.1-3]

This is a Christian forum not a political one.

By the way. I'm a liberal! So I'd appreciate it if you'd delete your prejudiced outlook on other Christians!

As far as the OP goes I actually don't agree with any of them. But #4 is the closest. Why?

I've always questioned everything over and over. I've found that the trinity doctrine is not completely correct. It's kind of peculiar that there would be a "nameless" third person of a trinity. And I believe God is greater than Jesus because Jesus said so himself.

What is or who is the Holy Spirit. I think that the Holy Spirit is present in all of God's angelic creation. They are the embodiment of God's Spirit which is directed by these angels. So in essence God's Spirit is His power but it's directed by 7 orders of angels who are the seven Spirits of God. Angels have a hierarchy and are organized into several orders, or "Angelic Choirs". They are also mentioned in the books of Enoch which I believe should be included in the bible.

Revelation 1:4 - John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Revelation 3:1 - And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Revelation 4:5 - And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 5:6 - And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

The seven may be...

Cherubim
Dominions
Powers
Seraphim
Principalities
Archangels
And regular angels.

So God's Spirit is in essence more than one "person."
The literal Presence of Christ is also a person of God's Holy Spirit.
That's the way I see it and don't expect anybody to agree with me.

The seven may be...

Cherubim
Dominions
Powers
Seraphim
Principalities
Archangels
And regular angels.

No these are not the 7 spirits of God, the 7 spirits of God are listed in Isaiah 11.1-4

This is a Christian forum not a political one.

By the way. I'm a liberal! So I'd appreciate it if you'd delete your prejudiced outlook on other Christians!

As far as the OP goes I actually don't agree with any of them. But #4 is the closest. Why?

I've always questioned everything over and over. I've found that the trinity doctrine is not completely correct. It's kind of peculiar that there would be a "nameless" third person of a trinity. And I believe God is greater than Jesus because Jesus said so himself.

What is or who is the Holy Spirit. I think that the Holy Spirit is present in all of God's angelic creation. They are the embodiment of God's Spirit which is directed by these angels. So in essence God's Spirit is His power but it's directed by 7 orders of angels who are the seven Spirits of God. Angels have a hierarchy and are organized into several orders, or "Angelic Choirs". They are also mentioned in the books of Enoch which I believe should be included in the bible.

Revelation 1:4 - John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Revelation 3:1 - And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Revelation 4:5 - And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 5:6 - And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

The seven may be...

Cherubim
Dominions
Powers
Seraphim
Principalities
Archangels
And regular angels.

So God's Spirit is in essence more than one "person."
The literal Presence of Christ is also a person of God's Holy Spirit.
That's the way I see it and don't expect anybody to agree with me.

You should read Colossians 2:18

 

[Pelaides]

Rocky,
You said: Jesus was a man and he was God. As a man he did many things as a man, praying to God is one of them
Are you saying Jesus prayed to himself here?

You said: Jesus was a man and he was God.
How does this reconcile with John 1.14 & Phil 2.5-12?

You Said: . As God he healed the sick, cast out devils, etc."
How does this reconcile with Isaiah 11.2, Isaiah 61.1-4, Luke 4.18-19 & Acts 10.38?

Jesus did not do what he did because he was God, or the son of God. Jesus did what he did because he was anointed by God with the Holy Ghost and with power, and God was with him, not in him[see above]. This is how he healed the sick, casted out devils, destroyed yokes , lifted burdens and changed lives.

This is a point that many christians today fail to see or understand and is why they do not walk a walk of victory.


Jesus is Flesh, [john 1.14] and anyone who says he is not has the spirit of anti-christ[1 John 4.1-3]
Jesus was in fact the son of God.He was concieved by the Holy Spirit and mary.




The seven may be...

Cherubim
Dominions
Powers
Seraphim
Principalities
Archangels
And regular angels.

No these are not the 7 spirits of God, the 7 spirits of God are listed in Isaiah 11.1-4

You should read Colossians 2:18