interesting Tom...........so what do we do with scripture that implies that GODs children will not /can not fall away from security and assurance of salvation?........" yet have we not forgotten you neither have we dealt falsely with your covenant.....Our heart is NOT turned back, neither have our steps declined (deviated) from Your way"......psalm 44:17,18In Hebrews the writer has a convincing thing to say concerning the matter......speaking to believers he says"But we are not of those who draw back to perdition(destruction) but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.....here the writer is confident that the believer wil not be counted among "those" who fall away to destruction.....Your apparent disdain for those who hold that our LORD JESUS will appear... and in the twinkling of an eye they will be caught up(raptured) to be with HIM forever.....and that HE has promised that HIS faithful church will NOT endure the wrath to come.....and that they will be among those at the throne of GOD, casting their crowns before HIM, singing the praises of the blessed redeemer etc.......is only evidence that you do NOT understand fully the implications of the rapture(catching up of the church)...........regards once again..Pop
Are We Saved by Grace Alone?
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=================Pop, What you are saying is true, but, we can "fall away" we can denounce our faith if we worship the false christ that is coming. That is what apostasy is and only a believer can commit apostasy. 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (G646) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; G646 apostasia -- Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.
Very well put Tom
=================Pop, What you are saying is true, but, we can "fall away" we can denounce our faith if we worship the false christ that is coming. That is what apostasy is and only a believer can commit apostasy. 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (G646) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; G646 apostasia -- Feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly the state), (“apostasy”): - falling away, forsake.
Very well put Tom
tomwebster
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Pop,You will be deceived, your eye are closed, it's not in my ability to open them, I will not throw my pearls. Tom
Matthew 24:22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.The Greek there is koloboo which means "abridged" - it's pretty clear that the elect will be there when this goes on. The days will be shortened but we will not be removed from them. When you abridge/shorten something, you make it smaller, you don't lop it out right there.(I don't want you to fell like there is a gang jumping on you here, Pop, but this is an observation I had to share.)
I expect for a "gang" as you put it fox to jump on the band wagon on this site, for it is evident that the idea of no rapture is overwhelmingly held by your posters.....some to the point of being your followers. But thats ok....for I have studied Eschatology in various stages for nigh on to 50 years...Premillennialism...postmillennialism....Amillennialism and ALL the various views of the Tribulation. pre trib, mid trib, post trib rapture of the church...pre trib mid week rapture, Prewrath rapture of the church....and some that are not even worth mentioning. I am fascinated by the end time prophecy. In rev 1 the believer is promised a blessing by hearing and reading the revelation. I take that serious and therefore I strive to gain that blessing...Through much study I am settled on what you and this room deem as heresey.....NOT SO.....for , though, you claim there is no proof of a catching up of the church(actually you ridicule the idea to the point of obsession) there is MUCH scripture that leads this servant to take exception to your clams......If I may.. let me share with you......(not that it will change your mind but that you can never claim that you never heard it) First of all I, unlike Tom, do not feel I am casting pearls before swine by sharing......it certainly is my hope that the Holy Spirit will intervene but then that is HIs business not mine..... There is only ONE second coming......the second coming will be made up of four distinct events.....the first being the rapture(catching up), by the way to be caught up means many things including rapture, of course 1 thes 4:13-18 reveals this....next is the tribulation....seven year period on earth and anti-christ rise to a position of world leadership and persecutes the all who woud believe(tribulation saints,Israel) dan 9:27; rev 13:5; rev12....The next event will be the battle of Armageddon which the army of the anti-christ in Northern Israel will strive to destoy Israel and the battle is ended by CHRIST and HIS saints and they destroy the false prophet....the beast(anti-christ) and to blind satan. rev 19:11,14,20..20:1-3....finally the LORD will set up HIS millennial Kingdom described in rev 20:1-6...matt 25:31-46..Is 11:4-13 and zech 14.......Thats the skinny of it......by the way I belong to NO cult....NO radical sect...and look ONLY to GOD and HIS guidence............regards..Pop
Pop, what do you make of Luke 17:23-24?" And they will say to you, " Look here!" or " Look there!" Do not go after them or follow them." For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in HIs day".Christ returning will not be something just some will see but every eye will see.2 Thessalonians 2: 1-4 : ( in part...)Let no one deceive you by any means; for THAT DAY will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God , showing himself that he is God." What day? The day of the Lord when he returns; the antichrist will be coming first.Now I know you think we're little followerers, Pop, but I am very careful NOT to be deceived. VERY CAREFUL.
Ross.....Luke 17:23,24....It is a warning not to believe false messiahs.when Christ returns ALL will know it.......There will be NO missing HIS coming Ross......vs 1 of 2nd thess 2 includes the fifth mention of the coming of our LORD JESUS in the letters to the Thessalonians....now notice what is said next.. "Our coming together"...this supposrts the idea of ALL believers coming together with the LORD JESUS...I believe it refers to the Rapture of the church described in 4:13-18 of of 1st thess..and john 14:1-3...this is the event the Thessalonians were anticipating...read 1 thess 1:10...vs 2 indicates the day of Christ(of the LORD)...scripture also refers to this day as the day of doom, day of vengence, the day of wrath and the great day of GOD ALMIGHTY.... the future day of the LORD can be seen at the end of the seven year tribulation period (rev 19:11-21) and also at the end of the millennium. Of course the two are 1,000 years apart.....peter mentions this in 2nd peter 3:10, rev 20:7-15...of course in this verse paul is speaking about the end of the period of tribulation.verse 4 speaks of the "falling away"..I believe this is a specific falling away as opposed to a general falling away...a specific apostasy as opposed to a general apostasy....this is the prince to come..dan 9:26...the little horn dan 7:8..john calls him the beast rev 13:2-10,18...of course I am speaking of the antichrist.....the falling away points to the abomination of desolation that takes place half way into the tribulation spoken of in dan 9:27 and 11:31....and matt 24:15"That day"...is the day of HIS vengence...the day of judgment....the church will not be included in the day of wrath.....after the 4th chapter of Revelation the church is not mentioned until the end of the book. This will fulfill HIS promise to HIS faithful Church....the Church that HE will have come and worship before their feet those who declare they are jews and are not. but do lie....and they will know that "I have loved thee"(the church)...Oh Ross how HE loves the church..so much that HE then says...because Thous has kept the word of my patience, I ALSO will keep thee from the hour of temptaiont(trial), which shall come upon the earth...Then HE proclaims " BEHOLD, I come quickly......rev 3:9,10 and 11aYou will find NO where in scripture that says the LORDs Church... will suffer the great Tribulation.......Now...there will be tribulation saints who hear the gospel from the believing jews(144,000) and the two witnesses.....do not confuse these with the New Testament Church....There you go Ross...you ask..................GOD be with you and your study.....regards...Pop
Through much study I am settled on what you and this room deem as heresey.....NOT SO.....for , though, you claim there is no proof of a catching up of the church(actually you ridicule the idea to the point of obsession) there is MUCH scripture that leads this servant to take exception to your clams......
I ridicule the notion because it is so very important. I believe that true believers in Christ will know when the times comes and they realize the false messiah comes first. That's why I try to emphasize knowing Scripture (all of it!) over everything regardless of whether or not you agree with me. The problem with the Rapture doctrine's teachings is that it is often taught as a point to shy away from actual study of the Bible. The danger comes in the notion that the church will "do it all for you."There's going to be no missing Christ's return, there is definite agreement on that but the problem is that the one that shows up first is going to put on a pretty convincing show.As for II Thessalonians 2, read it for what it is. I realize that the Scriptures often employ what I like to call the lock and key method. Many times there is a verse that is somewhat puzzling and the answer to it may be contained in another verse, chapter, or book. However, the idea of the rapture is so pieced together that there is no single verse anywhere that any rapture believer has ever shown me that stands on its own.II Thessalonians 2:1-4Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. We will gather together with Christ after the antichrist comes first. There's nothing in this particular passage that says the phrase that you cited suggests the rapture in any way by this gathering together. It's not a completed act, it's a statement of something that will happen. We will gather together with Christ but there's nothing here that says it happens yet.Satan is going to play God; he's going to exalt himself as God. How does he do it? "I am here to help you my little children and teach you the truth!" He has no problem complaining he was Christ since he desires to sit in the mercy seat and be god! Talk about the blasphemy of blasphemy!II Thessalonians 2:9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,This verse here is almost to say "In case you missed it above..." It doesn't get any more specific than this. He comes once (coming not comings) and it specifically says after Satan who "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
There is only ONE second coming......the second coming will be made up of four distinct events
Please, just listen to what you are saying here for a moment! You affirm that there is only one coming but then divide it up into four subsets at which Christ comes once to Rapture his church and then returns again at the end! That's two returns of Christ and there's no way around it.Let's look at what Rapture believers cite as the so called Rapture verse!I Thessalonians 4:16-17For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Clearly! Jesus himself is descending from heaven and this is the supposed Rapture verse that Jesus comes and raptures away all the nonbelievers first although he comes only once! In order for there to be a rapture, he has to come twice and clearly that would conflict with Scripture.
You will find NO where in scripture that says the LORDs Church... will suffer the great Tribulation
Mark 13:20And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.While we're at it, look at the passage and the context:Mark 13:20-26And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And thencoming in the clouds with great power and glory. shall they see the Son of man (Emphasis added for important words and phrases.)Christ repeats the phrase that he has told us all things many times around verses that deal with the latter days. He told us everything because we're gonna be here:Mark 13:13And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.Matthew 2413 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.25 Behold, I have told you before.26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.There's that trumpet from I Thessalonians 4!
I ridicule the notion because it is so very important. I believe that true believers in Christ will know when the times comes and they realize the false messiah comes first. That's why I try to emphasize knowing Scripture (all of it!) over everything regardless of whether or not you agree with me. The problem with the Rapture doctrine's teachings is that it is often taught as a point to shy away from actual study of the Bible. The danger comes in the notion that the church will "do it all for you."There's going to be no missing Christ's return, there is definite agreement on that but the problem is that the one that shows up first is going to put on a pretty convincing show.As for II Thessalonians 2, read it for what it is. I realize that the Scriptures often employ what I like to call the lock and key method. Many times there is a verse that is somewhat puzzling and the answer to it may be contained in another verse, chapter, or book. However, the idea of the rapture is so pieced together that there is no single verse anywhere that any rapture believer has ever shown me that stands on its own.II Thessalonians 2:1-4Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. We will gather together with Christ after the antichrist comes first. There's nothing in this particular passage that says the phrase that you cited suggests the rapture in any way by this gathering together. It's not a completed act, it's a statement of something that will happen. We will gather together with Christ but there's nothing here that says it happens yet.Satan is going to play God; he's going to exalt himself as God. How does he do it? "I am here to help you my little children and teach you the truth!" He has no problem complaining he was Christ since he desires to sit in the mercy seat and be god! Talk about the blasphemy of blasphemy!II Thessalonians 2:9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,This verse here is almost to say "In case you missed it above..." It doesn't get any more specific than this. He comes once (coming not comings) and it specifically says after Satan who "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
There is only ONE second coming......the second coming will be made up of four distinct events
Please, just listen to what you are saying here for a moment! You affirm that there is only one coming but then divide it up into four subsets at which Christ comes once to Rapture his church and then returns again at the end! That's two returns of Christ and there's no way around it.Let's look at what Rapture believers cite as the so called Rapture verse!I Thessalonians 4:16-17For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Clearly! Jesus himself is descending from heaven and this is the supposed Rapture verse that Jesus comes and raptures away all the nonbelievers first although he comes only once! In order for there to be a rapture, he has to come twice and clearly that would conflict with Scripture.
You will find NO where in scripture that says the LORDs Church... will suffer the great Tribulation
Mark 13:20And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.While we're at it, look at the passage and the context:Mark 13:20-26And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And thencoming in the clouds with great power and glory. shall they see the Son of man (Emphasis added for important words and phrases.)Christ repeats the phrase that he has told us all things many times around verses that deal with the latter days. He told us everything because we're gonna be here:Mark 13:13And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.Matthew 2413 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.25 Behold, I have told you before.26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.There's that trumpet from I Thessalonians 4!
tomwebster
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POP's Just a quick couple point's here to think on the word "Anti" in Hebrew means "INSTEAD of" so anti-christ means INSTEAD of CHRIST. Also we are told the delusion by the Anti-christ (pretending to be Christ)will be so great that if God did not shorten the days none would be left.And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened.If all believers are to be flown out of here what elect would need to be saved ?Why would God need to shorten the days for the sake of the elect if the elect if they were not here?And last please take notice of Ros and Swampfox's posts the words "comes first", and the man of sin is revealed.What does come FIRST mean? First before what? The real Christ is the answer but why warn us of this if we are going to be gone?Just bear with me for one moment and IMAGINE Anti christ comes first as scripture says CLAIMING to be Christ saying all of you who believe in me are going to be raptured out of here and the rest will be left behind.If you believed him you would be following Satan. Sense all rapture believers think they are going to be gone when Anti-christ comes you would have no problem believing him. However if you follow scripture you would know you are going nowhere and you would know the Deceiver, Anti-christ comes first so you would not believe his (Satan) lie. This is why this is so important to us to teach to those with eyes to see and ears to hear Just some things to think on.
I certainly appreciate your concern(all of you).....and I really admire those who stick to there guns in a debate as this......thanks for taking the time to post all those scriptures and arguments...but I must tell you that your ignoring one important fact and not even addressing the verses that are key to the rapture concept........first....the important fact.....tribulation saints and the 144,000 believing jews are in fact.....GODs ELECT...no different than the the believers of this age.....they are covered by the blood of CHRIST just as we are....there will be believers in the great tribulation and they will be the 144,000 witnesses, there converts and the converts of the two witnessing preachers......the scriptures I have quoted concerning the redeemed at the throne of GOD.....the promise to the faithful church.....the fact that the church goes unmentioned throughout the great tribulation.Here is another fact you ignore......when Christ comes for the church....the believers are caught up to meet HIM(just as john was) immediately....I know its easy to use words like fly away etc. The truth is We will be with HIM in the twinkling of an eye...but...when HE returns for the tribulation saints HE sends angel to the four corners of the earth to gather them in.......Please do not confuse what I am saying with the left behind movie for it is as unscriptural as worshiping marbles.....all this stuff about airplanes and cars crashing....that is pure human thinking....the fact remains that GOD wil not allow HIS beloved to suffer the wrath to come....HIS beloved being the body of Christ/the Church............thats my story and Im sticking to it...lol....thanks again......regards.Pop
but I must tell you that your ignoring one important fact and not even addressing the verses that are key to the rapture concept........first....the important fact.....tribulation saints and the 144,000 believing jews are in fact.....GODs ELECT...no different than the the believers of this age.....they are covered by the blood of CHRIST just as we are....there will be believers in the great tribulation and they will be the 144,000 witnesses, there converts and the converts of the two witnessing preachers......the scriptures I have quoted concerning the redeemed at the throne of GOD.....the promise to the faithful church.....the fact that the church goes unmentioned throughout the great tribulation.
All Christians alive at this time and the elect are one in the same and they are addressed as the elect. The idea that those of the House of Judah (which comprise most to all of the current Jews - don't believe me, read the Bible about those what returned from captivity and how few in number they were compared to the original and what House they are of) are the 144,000 is a fallacy from the description given in Revelation because they're clearly from all the tribes of Israel. Know you not your history? Where did the 10 tribes go into exile? They were scattered abroad and came across the Caucus Mountains to form the race know as the Caucasions. I will be backing this up scriptually in the next lesson slated for release soon.
Here is another fact you ignore......when Christ comes for the church....the believers are caught up to meet HIM(just as john was) immediately....I know its easy to use words like fly away etc. The truth is We will be with HIM in the twinkling of an eye...but...when HE returns for the tribulation saints HE sends angel to the four corners of the earth to gather them in
Pop, again you're going back on what you say. Revelation 19 is pretty specific in the return of Christ.Revelation 19:1111 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.Again, no room for a rapture and you're quickly running out of verses. I think it's quite obvious how Jesus comes back.
All Christians alive at this time and the elect are one in the same and they are addressed as the elect. The idea that those of the House of Judah (which comprise most to all of the current Jews - don't believe me, read the Bible about those what returned from captivity and how few in number they were compared to the original and what House they are of) are the 144,000 is a fallacy from the description given in Revelation because they're clearly from all the tribes of Israel. Know you not your history? Where did the 10 tribes go into exile? They were scattered abroad and came across the Caucus Mountains to form the race know as the Caucasions. I will be backing this up scriptually in the next lesson slated for release soon.
Here is another fact you ignore......when Christ comes for the church....the believers are caught up to meet HIM(just as john was) immediately....I know its easy to use words like fly away etc. The truth is We will be with HIM in the twinkling of an eye...but...when HE returns for the tribulation saints HE sends angel to the four corners of the earth to gather them in
Pop, again you're going back on what you say. Revelation 19 is pretty specific in the return of Christ.Revelation 19:1111 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.Again, no room for a rapture and you're quickly running out of verses. I think it's quite obvious how Jesus comes back.
All we are saying here Pops, is if you are not going sway your opinion fine thats your choice but just learn from us whats going to happen so if you aren't ratured away you know what to expect so you don't get fooled by the illusion of Satan then you are at least know whats coming. Although some of what we say you will not be able to be explained with the point of veiw you have. You can get the jest of it. We are not concerned with trying to prove anything for any other reason than we care that so many good Christains are going to be decieved, it would be easier to just keep our mouth about this subject, but God has put it upon us to be a voice in the wildness so to speak so we have to say and do what we are lead to.Please dont take our passion about on this as Personal afront on you
Hi Everybody!As I was thumbing thru the Bible to answer Pop, I came across a statement of Christ's that if you know the specfics, please explain.It's the hour of temptation; Christ said to pray that you will be counted worthy to escape( ? ) the hour of temptation.Now we all know the hour of temptation is the hour of the antichrist, but what does Christ mean to escape it?Thanks!!
How do you escape Satan ?By faith in Christ put on your spiritual AmourDoes this answer your question Ros?
Agree Kriss, but I can see where people believing in the rapture theory would use that "'escape" -- pray that you are counted worthy of escaping the hour of temptation to mean that they were flying out of here.The meeting in the air is in regards to when Christ returns at the 7th trump, but the pray that you will escape the hour of temptation could easily be miscontrued to mean they're flying out of here.Do you see that?
Yes I see this very well Ros,I have seen many take this verse to wrongly use as proof of Rapture
"Flying out of here".......LOL......not at you Ross...but at the image that brings to my mind.....what a misconception.......Those who will be raptured will be done so just as John was...in the twinkling of an eye..... Im not sure which verse you ae quoting Ross concerning the hour of temptation, if there is such a verse, please share it.......Now there is a verse in Rev 3 that says EXACTLY that but in a different way...the faithful church is told in one of the seven letters(now get this...the faithful church...)in the 10th verse..."because you have kept My commandment to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of temptaion(trial) which will come upon the whole world to test those who dwell on the earth." in the 13th verse it is recorded he who has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says to the church.So Ross......this describes the great tribulation....if you have never heard the others speak of this verse(and it seems that way by your inquiry) there is a reason..... This is a promise to those who are faithful, read above this and you will see it is to those HE loves.....what is the great tribulation?...it is the wrath of GOD poured out on the unbelieving world....GODs judgment...surely this verse and thought(you brought up) should convince a believer that the wrath of GOD is not appointed to them...Paul said in romans 1:18.."for the wrath of GOD is revealed from heaven against all UNGODLINESS and UNRIGHTEOUSNESS of men, who suppresses the truth in untighteousness....Now Ross...listen to the promise Paul shared with the elect Thessalonians...."and to wait for HIS(GODS) SON from heaven, whom HE raised from the dead, even JESUS who delivers us FROM THE WRATH TO COME." 1thess 1:10......Thank GOD that HIS SON will rescue HIS precious Church from the horrible wrath to come and when HE comes in judgment....that very body of believers will be with HIM...Jude 14 is a marvelous verse that sheds much light on the matter..."Now Enoch the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying BEHOLD the LORD comes with ten thousands of HIS ...SAINTS...to execute judgment on all to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against HIM"........there you go Ross..Its not as cut and dry as some would have us to believe......you take it from here........Pop
Rev. 3 speaks of the hour of temptation but I was referring to Luke 21:36"escape" is the key word here and it isn't in the concordance. But I can see why people that believe in the rapture theory would think "escape" means to leave the earth, but Christ isn't coming back ( again ) twice. Pop.He's coming back once at the end of the age with the believers with him.Those that have already died natural deaths will be with them. Then we that remain alive will be changed in a twinkling of an eye.The evil one comes first-the antichrist. ( I have the scripture in an earlier post)People that believe in the rapture have Christ coming back twice, once to pick up the people ( fly out or whatever you want to call it ) before the antichrist and then again when Christ comes at the end of the age to *punish the wicked.Hmmm...sounds like a lot of trips back and forth.There is two trips--one; the first advent and the second advent is when Christ comes back at the end of the age.* Not the second death; that happens after the White Throne Judgement
Escape won't be found in the concordance because it was a word that the translators used. It's not wrong by any means and you can think of it, as other translations render it, as keeping you "out" of the hour of temptation.Pop, if that's what you have to go on for the "insert Rapture here argument" then that's a pretty flimsy statement. Our Father kept Shadrack, Meshack, and Abendigo from their troubles yet they were right in the thick of that fire along with an angel of the Lord. We'll be kept from the hour of temptation through much the same means. Escape only hinges on the connotations of a word used by the translators. As for the rest of what you say, we'll be kept from the wrath of God regardless of where we are. Do you really think he has to rapture us out in order to protect us? We who follow him are his children and he will protect us. Those who have the seal of God in their foreheads (God's Word) have nothing to fear.
