Are you sending your neighbors to Hell?

[St. SteVen]

The only time anyone’s biblical understanding is infallible is when it aligns perfectly with the Messiah’s understanding.

So, unitarian doctrine is infallible?

All post-biblical thought. The concept doesn’t align with what Jesus thought and taught as recorded in the NT? -> it’s false.

All three doctrines of the final judgment are biblical and in conflict with each other.
You are limiting what the whole Bible says when you refer to what Jesus taught.
Do the writings of the Apostles have no value to you?

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

It’s good and often helpful to look at man’s commentary but man’s commentary isn’t the authority.

Your posts are "man’s commentary".

]

 

[Matthias]

On WHT the owner is promoting the blasphemous idea that “Yahweh is the devil.”

Who is it that would like for us to believe that Yahweh is the devil?

 

[St. SteVen]

On WHT the owner is promoting the blasphemous idea that “Yahweh is the devil.”

Who is it that would like for us to believe that Yahweh is the devil?

I think you just told us. (the WHT owner)

Who was the God of the religious leaders in Jesus day? Yahweh?
Who did Jesus say the father of the religious leaders was? The devil?

I understand that this sounds blasphemous...
But how do you explain what Jesus said about the God of the religious leaders in His day?

(oops. I capitalized "His" - You deny the deity)

]

 

[Matthias]

So, unitarian doctrine is infallible?

No. Unitarian doctrine is variable.

Jesus’ Jewish monotheism, which is a specific type of unitarian doctrine, is infallible.

All three doctrines of the final judgment are biblical and in conflict with each other.

Jesus said that scripture cannot be broken.

Does Jesus agree with your assessment?

You are limiting what the whole Bible says when you refer to what Jesus taught.

Jesus’ teaching is extended through the Apostles. They aren’t at odds with him.

Do the writings of the Apostles have no value to you?

Of course they do. The writings of the Apostles align with the teaching of Jesus.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

That’s correct. Men are resurrected to life for judgement. What happens to men after they have been judged, according to scripture? Universal salvation? No.

Your posts are "man’s commentary".

]

That’s right. So are yours and everyone else‘s. They aren’t the final authority.

 

[St. SteVen]

Jesus’ teaching is extended through the Apostles. They aren’t at odds with him.

How will you harmonize what the Bible teaches about Universalism then?

Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32, 36
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man,
how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin:
The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Romans 9:16 NIV
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

James 2:13 NIV
... Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Ecclesiastes 12:14 NIV
For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.

1 John 4:18 NIV
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear,
because fear has to do with punishment.
The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

]

 

[Matthias]

I think you just told us. (the WHT owner)

You missed the point. The devil is the one who wants man to believe “Yahweh is the devil.”

Just as God and Messiah work through man, so does the devil and the demons.

Who was the God of the religious leaders in Jesus day? Yahweh?

Among the Jewish leaders, of which Jesus himself is one, Yahweh.

There is no God besides Yahweh. The only alternative to that position given in scripture is idolatry.

Who did Jesus say the father of the religious leaders was? The devil?

No. Once again, you’ve missed the point.

Those who believed that Jesus is the Messiah promised, prophesied, raised up and sent by Yahweh have Yahweh as their Father.

Those who do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah promised, prophesied, raised up and sent by Yahweh have the devil as their father. They are deceived and deluded.

I understand that this sounds blasphemous...

It isn’t blasphemous. It’s a simply a question.

But how do you explain what Jesus said about the God of the religious leaders in His day?

Jesus wasn’t saying that the God of the religious leaders in his day was the devil. There were those among the religious leaders who believed that he is the Messiah of their God. They were in the minority.

(oops. I capitalized "His" - You deny the deity)

]

Yahweh is the deity. The one and only true deity. I don’t and won’t join with those, such as yourself will, to those who are teaching - blasphemously - that Yahweh is the devil.

 

[Matthias]

How will you harmonize what the Bible teaches about Universalism then?

Your premise is incorrect. The Bible doesn’t teach us that everyone will be saved. Salvation is conditional.

Rejecting God and Messiah isn’t the way to life. It is the way to destruction in the lake of fire. The second death is extinction. Those who will experience it will be reduced to ashes. The end of life; not the life of the age to come.

Acts 3:21 NIV
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32, 36
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

1 Timothy 4:10 NIV
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man,
how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin:
The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Romans 3:24 NIV
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Romans 9:16 NIV
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

James 2:13 NIV
... Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Ecclesiastes 12:14 NIV
For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.

1 John 4:18 NIV
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear,
because fear has to do with punishment.
The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

]

 

[Episkopos]

Perhaps the best evidence that no one really believes in a forever-burning Hell.
Or that no one really loves their neighbors. Take your pick.

If you really loved your neighbors, and believed in a forever-burning Hell, you wouldn't send them there.

I can hear the reply coming now. "I didn't send them to Hell, they sent themselves there."
Did you do anything to stop them? Did you convince them otherwise?
Did you live a life that made Christ attractive? I see...

Fortunately for me, I don't believe in a forever-burning Hell. Not really my problem.
Do you believe in a forever-burning Hell? (nope) If you did...

Or maybe you don't really love your neighbors. Seems to go hand-in-hand.

I believe in a second death...annihilation of both the body and soul...not an everlasting torture. The everlasting shame is on those who are in the house of God. Outer darkness with no refreshment. Knowing the terror of the Lord I warn people.

 

[Matthias]

Universalism is blasphemous because it asks us to believe that the God of Israel, the Messiah’s God, Yahweh, is a liar. (Connecting with the “Yahweh is the devil” false teaching.)

While Yahweh - how utterly ridiculous it is to believe and teach that Yahweh is the devil - wants all men to be saved there will be those who, like the Pharisees and scribes, rejected God’s purpose for themselves (Luke 7:30).

 

[Matthias]

“Yahweh is the devil” = “Yahweh is a liar” —> the position which Jesus pointed out to his fellow Jews who didn't believe that he is the Messiah of his God and theirs were really taking.

Those who, like the unbelieving religious leaders in Jesus’ time, are blinded. The god of this world, the devil, is their father; not Yahweh. Those who, like the believing religious leaders (a minority) in Jesus’ time, aren’t blinded. Their Father is Yahweh, not the devil.

What is being missed by those who are teaching that Yahweh is not the God and Father of Jesus is that Jesus makes a clear distinction between those who believe Yahweh and those who don’t believe Yahweh.

What they further miss is that not all of the Jewish leaders of his day rejected Jesus and the one who sent him (Yahweh).

Failing to grasp this crucial point, they accuse those who believe Yahweh is the one and only true God of being Pharisees.

The devil hasn’t failed to grasp the crucial point. He is using those who haven’t grasped it to malign those who have. It is their father who is the devil and they are doing, whether they are consciously aware of it or not, what the devil is doing.

P.S. Paul identifies himself as a Pharisee in scripture following his conversion; not “I was a Pharisee,” but “I am a Pharisee”.

 

[Matthias]

“The devil is a liar.“ - the teaching of the Bible

””Yahweh is the devil.” - not the teaching of the Bible

(I don’t have the authority, nor do I desire to have it, to force anyone to believe it. That is a charge leveled against me by the accuser. Yahweh (not the devil) and Jesus will take care of that in due time.)

Search the scriptures to see if what is said is true. That is my counsel.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Perhaps the best evidence that no one really believes in a forever-burning Hell.
Or that no one really loves their neighbors. Take your pick.

If you really loved your neighbors, and believed in a forever-burning Hell, you wouldn't send them there.

I can hear the reply coming now. "I didn't send them to Hell, they sent themselves there."
Did you do anything to stop them? Did you convince them otherwise?
Did you live a life that made Christ attractive? I see...

Fortunately for me, I don't believe in a forever-burning Hell. Not really my problem.
Do you believe in a forever-burning Hell? (nope) If you did...

Or maybe you don't really love your neighbors. Seems to go hand-in-hand.

Spreading the Gospel is a hit or miss mystery to us. We aren't prevy to those who are already written into The Book of Life. God predestined those whom will be saved and He moves us in their direction. We can't save anyone, only the Holy Spirit converts a soul and so if it was ordained by God that anyone plants an active seed, devilers a divine calling message to anyone, it is the work of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, we cannot be held responsible for anyone's spiritual death. God's will be done. If it is not His will, it will not happen.
Also many Evangelical Churches push for everyone to go out. But according to Eph. 4:11, not everyone is gifted to be an evangelist - I'm not. I have planted seeds, some may have fallen on fertile soil and some on shallow or rocky soil. ???
I have neighbors whom I socialize with with who are adament against the Bible and one's an antichrist, ( who I recently decided to avoid after six years of us walking our dogs together periodically). She's rich, thinks she is smart and told me in a heated discussion, "I'm sitting in $1.2 mil ... What are you sitting on?" I told her if she does not have the Lord in her life, she has nothing. She deprived herself of a relationship with any man for the last 30 years because she didn't want them to touch her money. So she has a horse and a dog. She has no love other than a few grandkids that she sees periodically.
So am I responsible for her salvation? NOPE. If God nudged me to do or say something, I would. I usually am sensitive to His inspiration/voice, and he gives me the words to say at times - but I get no unction with her. Likely over half - 2/3 of the world population are reprobate. Likely more Americans are in that Book of Life. But I sense that at least 1/3 of Americans are destined for the Lake of Fire.
We are encouraged to plants seeds, share our views about Christ when they ask or if we are gifted and called to evangelize, then by all means go. But if their door is shut, they aren't asking and so then we are also told to brush the dirt off our sandals and move on.

 

[St. SteVen]

That’s right. So are yours and everyone else‘s. They aren’t the final authority.

Seems to be a circular argument/discussion we are in. (again)
You should be able to predict what I will write next.


























Did you guess?


















There is no consensus on what the Bible means.


]

 

[Matthias]

Seems to be a circular argument/discussion we are in. (again)
You should be able to predict what I will write next.


























Did you guess?


















There is no consensus on what the Bible means.


]

No, but I did address your position earlier today in a thread devoted to the subject of how paganism came into the church.

 

[St. SteVen]

On WHT the owner is promoting the blasphemous idea that “Yahweh is the devil.”

Who is it that would like for us to believe that Yahweh is the devil?

I'm familiar with the "divide and conquer" strategy.



/

 

[amadeus]

I think you just told us. (the WHT owner)

Who was the God of the religious leaders in Jesus day? Yahweh?
Who did Jesus say the father of the religious leaders was? The devil?

I understand that this sounds blasphemous...
But how do you explain what Jesus said about the God of the religious leaders in His day?

(oops. I capitalized "His" - You deny the deity)

]

Consider who or what or where is the left hand of God? Should we be sheep or goats before Him?

 

[St. SteVen]

“The devil is a liar.“ - the teaching of the Bible

””Yahweh is the devil.” - not the teaching of the Bible

The God of the religious leaders in Jesus day. Yahweh. = teaching of the Bible
Who Jesus said the father of the religious leaders was. The devil. = teaching of the Bible

]

 

[Matthias]

I'm familiar with the "divide and conquer" strategy.

View attachment 44846

/

I’m not dividing you from him. I’m binding you to him.

 

[St. SteVen]

Consider who or what or where is the left hand of God? Should we be sheep or goats before Him?

I thought Jesus was at the right hand? Who's left?

]

 

[Matthias]

The God of the religious leaders in Jesus day. Yahweh. = teaching of the Bible

The God of Jesus is Yahweh = also the teaching of the Bible

Who Jesus said the father of the religious leaders was. The devil. = teaching of the Bible

]

Jesus did not say that Yahweh is the devil. He knows that Yahweh is not the devil. He also knows that Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Israel and Moses is the one true God.

You’ve misunderstood Jesus and that misunderstanding has you believing and willing to say that Yahweh is the devil.