Arguments over 'genealogies'

[Foreigner]

Hmm...so are you saying that knowing about Hell brought you to Christianity?

-- So you are saying that there is no need in ensuring that people know the dangers of hell?

 

[ajdiamond]

As far as loving your neighbor as yourself.

I know that I was going to be condemned for all eternity, I would want someone to tell me and not just leave me in the dark.
Especially if by telling me they introduce me to an awesome loving God.

Loving someone enough to not share what the Gospel says is literally loving them to death.
When they stand before God and say, "I didn't know."

And when you as a Christian stand before God, just saying, "I was busy showing them unconditional love" isn't going to cut it when He wants to know why you didn't warn them.

He will point out that if you truly loved them, you would have ensured they knew the danger of their lifestyle.

Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. (John 20:23)....

.....is a very high calling.

When you perceive another as a sinner who sins, their sins are retained to them; and yours are not forgiven either. (Mt 6:15) When you perceive another as the divine spark of your Father; love them for what they are instead of dealing with them the way you've allowed your religious eyes to perceive them to be; they are forgiven and so are you.

Spiritual things are not transmitted mind to mind; my belief system to your belief system. It is the Love, Life, Truth of God gestated in you, given form by you, and given as gifts to those we meet that turns men's hearts to our Father.

 

[aspen]

-- So you are saying that there is no need in ensuring that people know the dangers of hell?

Interested in answering my question?

 

[rockytopva]

There are posters on this board who think they have arrived... But they have none of the Spiritual Light (Faith, Hope, Charity) or Spiritual Energy (Warmth, Love, Motivation) inside of them.

Newsflash!

!!!People do not care what you know until they know how much you care!!!

 

[Foreigner]

Interested in answering my question?

-- Interested in asking a question that genuinely has anything at all with what I said?

 

[aspen]

-- Interested in asking a question that genuinely has anything at all with what I said?

No. Your comment is the typical response given by a person who believes that loving people is summed up by warning them about Hell - that is not loving your neighbor through service. If you are not interested in answering my question, which is perfectly relevant to your statement - I guess we are finished, here. Have a blessed day!

 

[Foreigner]

I knew that was the answer when I read your first question. You too.

 

[Prentis]

-- Interested in asking a question that genuinely has anything at all with what I said?

He did. You said we should tell people about hell. He asked you if you knowing about hell brought you to be a christian. :)

Just sayin'... ;)

Love in our Lord

 

[Foreigner]

His question - as stated - was a bait question.

I gave my life to Christ because of where I was at my life.

I was told He loved me but that if I truly wanted Him to change my life and be my Lord, I had to make changes in my life.

If they hadn't told me about needing to reject sin, I would have followed Him under incomplete (false) pretenses.

 

[FHII]

I haven't read through all the posts here, but on the original post and a few others, I can say I understand the title (and I must say I'm interested in Biblical geneology) and why you think its meaningless. However, I don't think it's meaningless to discuss civilly doctrine of the Bible. It think it's of utmost importance. The council at Nicea was an argument over doctrine as was the letter of Galatians. I think it's important to get it right.

 

[Prentis]

I haven't read through all the posts here, but on the original post and a few others, I can say I understand the title (and I must say I'm interested in Biblical geneology) and why you think its meaningless. However, I don't think it's meaningless to discuss civilly doctrine of the Bible. It think it's of utmost importance. The council at Nicea was an argument over doctrine as was the letter of Galatians. I think it's important to get it right.

Yes. :) But are we doing it in love and according to the Spirit so that it would edify the body?

 

[FHII]

Yes. :) But are we doing it in love and according to the Spirit so that it would edify the body?

Well, "the Spirit" is the spirit of Truth". Anything the spirit is going to bring is of the Truth. No?

 

[Prentis]

Exactly. Only think of this, the Pharisees had a book full of truth, and yet they did not speak the truth. We can all fall into the same trap. If we teach one aspect of the truth, but use it to deny another, then it is not THE truth anymore, but a truth, mixed with a lie.

Also, there is such a thing as always learning, and never coming to the knowledge of the truth. We must be careful what it is we are trying to do when we debate over something. Are we debating over something that matters, that is pertaining to the truth, or are we arguing over mere details, and creating division according to doctrine, rather than having unity that is in spirit.

The Bible says the church is the pillar and ground of THE truth. I am afraid what we call 'church' nowadays, has become the pillar and ground of A truth, each denomination picking their favorite truth, and none walking according to the full counsel of God, thus being in the Spirit and obedient to Christ.

 

[FHII]

Exactly. Only think of this, the Pharisees had a book full of truth, and yet they did not speak the truth. We can all fall into the same trap. If we teach one aspect of the truth, but use it to deny another, then it is not THE truth anymore, but a truth, mixed with a lie.

Also, there is such a thing as always learning, and never coming to the knowledge of the truth. We must be careful what it is we are trying to do when we debate over something. Are we debating over something that matters, that is pertaining to the truth, or are we arguing over mere details, and creating division according to doctrine, rather than having unity that is in spirit.

The Bible says the church is the pillar and ground of THE truth. I am afraid what we call 'church' nowadays, has become the pillar and ground of A truth, each denomination picking their favorite truth, and none walking according to the full counsel of God, thus being in the Spirit and obedient to Christ.

Several problems here... First, no the pharisees did not have a book "full of Truth". We do! They had the OT, and failed to realize the signs it gave (that being, of course, Jesus). Jesus even told them.... He read from that book and said, "This stuff testifies of me!" and then he gave THAT book back to them. I'm going to jump down in your commentary and say that is what was meant by learning but never coming to the knowledge of truth. The pharisees were still learning. but they did not come to the full knowledge that Jesus was the Truth. Paul.... Well, he was one of them and it took a sucker punch from God to get his attention, didn't it? But the publicans, the sinners, the samaritan woman, the whores and drunkards.... They got it. It's my opinion with good reason that even James his half brother didn't get it until he was about to be thrown off the rooftop of his own Church (if history through Josephus is correct).

Did not the pharisees speak the truth? Give me one instance. Technically, nothing they said was wrong by the Law that I see. Jesus had his disciples picking corn on the Sabbath.... They were right! The disciples of John -- the greatest prophet ever -- even had it right, yet wrong when they asked why his disciples didn't fast. What, by the law of the torah, did the pharisees have wrong? They DID know truth, but didn't understand it. That's why Jesus was able to tie them in knots.

It's not about teaching one truth to deny another. That would mean the truth is contradictory. I understand that you think the Bible has contradictions. The pharisees thought Jesus contradicted the Torah too. That's why the killed him. Jesus was God. Yet that wasn't yet to be revealed and yet Jesus gave an answer to even that, which pissed off the pharisees because they didn't have and answer. (Check on that in John 10:34).

SO TELL ME WHERE ANYTHING THE PHARISEES EVER SAID WAS NOT TRUE BY THE LAW?

They simply lacked understanding. They were ever learning and never coming to the knowledge.

Now let me address this:

"The Bible says the church is the pillar and ground of THE truth. I am afraid what we call 'church' nowadays, has become the pillar and ground of A truth, each denomination picking their favorite truth, and none walking according to the full counsel of God, thus being in the Spirit and obedient to Christ."

Well, I agree that the Church is the pillar and ground fo THE truth. I also agree that that book (the Bible) which some believe has contradictions (which I don't agree with) says that. I agree with all that. The Church IS the pillar and ground of THEE TRUTH.

Not all churches are "The Church". Unless it is "The Church" is is just a church.... and it doesn't have A truth, it has only lies. Demonnations.... Ummmm.. Excuse me, Denominations aren't the Church. But that book full of contradictions still says God saved them that believe through the foolishness of preaching. That book of contradictions still says faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, and how can you hear without a preacher. That book of contradictions still says not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together.

What if it ain't a book of contradictions though? What if I'm not smart enough to understand it all right now? I used to believe several contradictions.... But the more I come to knowledge, the more they disapear. Hmmmm....

 

[aspen]

external truth / cognitive truth vs. internal truth / heart

The Pharisees were right - dead right.

They were painting by numbers and calling themselves artists.

There are many Pharisees in the pulpit today, pointing their fingers at all the people that appear to be slightly more like Pharisees.

We are called to love with our whole beings.

 

[Prentis]

Brother, I'm saying the same thing you said about the Pharisees, they had the truth, in the OT, but didn't understand it. You think we are somehow beyond that? Nobody's going to fool us about what the NT means, right? We are human just like them, and we can fall into the same trap. They spoke 'the truth' in the sense that they quoted it, but then if Jesus is the truth, and they spoke against him, that HAD to be a lie! So they did lie, because they only understood the word of God as a bunch of facts and rules, rather than understand the nature of it. It can be so with us also.

Firstly, I apologize if I have not made myself clear about the 'contradictions' issue. Firstly, may I direct you here, if you want to know what I really meant (post #13). First I want to say, I did not express myself well, if you read that post you will see this is what I meant; no, there are no contradictions, but seeming contradictions. They do indeed cause tension. Sorry for not using a good word, but read my post honestly, I did not mean it ill, and already stated clearly I did not believe the Bible had error. Forgive me...

I agree, and I do not condemn the people in those 'churches'. Only the way in which the church walks goes against the commandements of Christ. Christ says that those who are great in the church cannot lord it over the others, yet the leaders take all decisions. Paul says that when we come together, a prophet ought to speak, and the others judge. We have one pastor speak, everyone else sit and be quiet. All in the church are supposed to function in their gifts, yet in the 'church' there is one person or group bringing music, and one person bringing a message. Paul says that when we come together, each ought to bring something, one a song, another a teaching, another a psalm. We have one man bring one teaching, and the rest are supposed to just listen.

What we call 'the church' is not functioning as the church and not being the pillar and ground of the truth. In Christ there is unity, but the devil seeks to divide. The church is all divided up.

Christ has not called us to this 'playing church'. He has called us to true fellowship, with him and the Father, and thus with the brothers who also have fellowship with him, each person functioning in their gift and walking according to freedom in the Spirit, that he may lead. We've got agendas and schedules for sunday meetings, the Spirit is stiffled from the get go!

external truth / cognitive truth vs. internal truth / heart

The Pharisees were right - dead right.

They were painting by numbers and calling themselves artists.

There are many Pharisees in the pulpit today, pointing their fingers at all the people that appear to be slightly more like Pharisees.

We are called to love with our whole beings.

Exactly, in other words, the Pharisees did have truth, but they didn't. It depends what you mean by it. They had factual truth, but no true understanding. The same is true in the mainstream church today.

 

[aspen]

Brother, I'm saying the same thing you said about the Pharisees, they had the truth, in the OT, but didn't understand it. You think we are somehow beyond that? Nobody's going to fool us about what the NT means, right? We are human just like them, and we can fall into the same trap. They spoke 'the truth' in the sense that they quoted it, but then if Jesus is the truth, and they spoke against him, that HAD to be a lie! So they did lie, because they only understood the word of God as a bunch of facts and rules, rather than understand the nature of it. It can be so with us also.

Firstly, I apologize if I have not made myself clear about the 'contradictions' issue. Firstly, may I direct you here, if you want to know what I really meant (post #13). First I want to say, I did not express myself well, if you read that post you will see this is what I meant; no, there are no contradictions, but seeming contradictions. They do indeed cause tension. Sorry for not using a good word, but read my post honestly, I did not mean it ill, and already stated clearly I did not believe the Bible had error. Forgive me...

I agree, and I do not condemn the people in those 'churches'. Only the way in which the church walks goes against the commandements of Christ. Christ says that those who are great in the church cannot lord it over the others, yet the leaders take all decisions. Paul says that when we come together, a prophet ought to speak, and the others judge. We have one pastor speak, everyone else sit and be quiet. All in the church are supposed to function in their gifts, yet in the 'church' there is one person or group bringing music, and one person bringing a message. Paul says that when we come together, each ought to bring something, one a song, another a teaching, another a psalm. We have one man bring one teaching, and the rest are supposed to just listen.

What we call 'the church' is not functioning as the church and not being the pillar and ground of the truth. In Christ there is unity, but the devil seeks to divide. The church is all divided up.

Christ has not called us to this 'playing church'. He has called us to true fellowship, with him and the Father, and thus with the brothers who also have fellowship with him, each person functioning in their gift and walking according to freedom in the Spirit, that he may lead. We've got agendas and schedules for sunday meetings, the Spirit is stiffled from the get go!

Amen! We are all vulnerable to acting legalistically! Often times we are the ones wandering in the desert for 40 years and complaining about the blessings from God. The reason the OT is still relevant today is because it is the history of humanity - yesterday and today.

 

[Prentis]

Amen! We are all vulnerable to acting legalistically! Often times we are the ones wandering in the desert for 40 years and complaining about the blessings from God. The reason the OT is still relevant today is because it is the history of humanity - yesterday and today.

Indeed, it is true. One of the greatest mistakes is to think that 'somehow we are different' and not prone to the same mistakes. It's the very attitude that stops us from learning of their mistakes, making it a waste.

 

[FHII]

Getting late, fellas... I'm off to bed soon! But Aspen and Prentis, you are on the right track. I like that "painting by numbers" comment as well as the opening paragraph by prentis. I will analyse the contradictions stuff later.... Just too tired to do it now...

I will leave you with some questions... Three, to be exact....

1. Does anything we do in the flesh count to our salvation?
2. Does everything we do in our spirit count to our salvation?
3. Will the Chicago Cubs ever win a World Series?

 

[aspen]

Getting late, fellas... I'm off to bed soon! But Aspen and Prentis, you are on the right track. I like that "painting by numbers" comment as well as the opening paragraph by prentis. I will analyse the contradictions stuff later.... Just too tired to do it now...

I will leave you with some questions... Three, to be exact....

1. Does anything we do in the flesh count to our salvation?
2. Does everything we do in our spirit count to our salvation?
3. Will the Chicago Cubs ever win a World Series?

1. Yes. Dividing the physical body from the spirit is dualistic - we are one soul. And 'no' - if you are using the term flesh as Paul uses it, as 'worldly' or hedonism - then it is all evil.
2. Our relationship with God, which justifies and sanctifies our soul - body and spirit, is redeeming us - transforming us into citizens of Heaven.
3. Not if the Giants are still in MLB :)