Arguments over 'genealogies'

[veteran]

They had factual truth, but no true understanding. The same is true in the mainstream church today.

Out of all what you said, that makes the most sense.

Sounds like you disagree with way things are done in the services of Churches today. I definitely disagree with how some of them operate, like with those that spend much of their time playing music or jumping up and down in the aisles instead of teaching God's Word line upon line like they're supposed to do.

 

[FHII]

Brother, I'm saying the same thing you said about the Pharisees, they had the truth, in the OT, but didn't understand it. You think we are somehow beyond that? Nobody's going to fool us about what the NT means, right? We are human just like them, and we can fall into the same trap. They spoke 'the truth' in the sense that they quoted it, but then if Jesus is the truth, and they spoke against him, that HAD to be a lie! So they did lie, because they only understood the word of God as a bunch of facts and rules, rather than understand the nature of it. It can be so with us also.

Well yes, I do think we are beyond the Pharisees, and even beyond the Apostles in some cases. We have something they don't -- the completed Word of God in the Bible. The Pharisees had the OT, as did the Apostles, and they were busy writing the NT as they went. Paul said that he [and his generation] saw through a glass, darkly, and prophesized that something perfect was coming and that which was in part would be done away with. We can discuss if that means the completed Bible or not, but I partly believe it is.

We are human, just like them, and while I believe we have more, that makes it more dangerous for us. We DO have more truth, but the Bible says it would be better for us if we didn't know it, than to know it and not follow it.

Firstly, I apologize if I have not made myself clear about the 'contradictions' issue. Firstly, may I direct you here, if you want to know what I really meant (post #13). First I want to say, I did not express myself well, if you read that post you will see this is what I meant; no, there are no contradictions, but seeming contradictions. They do indeed cause tension. Sorry for not using a good word, but read my post honestly, I did not mean it ill, and already stated clearly I did not believe the Bible had error. Forgive me...

I read that post (number 13) and did comment on it. I am speaking in general, not directly to you Prentis. It bugs me that more haven't made the admission you did. It's one thing to say, "I see contradictions" or "This seems like a contradiction to me", yet another to say, "The Bible has contradictions". The first is admitting you don't understand; the latter is claiming you do understand and is saying the Bible has error.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I too don't understand everything the Bible says and I see contradictions, by my own understanding. But it isn't the Bible's fault I don't understand it when those things come up.

So again, I was speaking in general... I was speaking to those that claim there ARE contradictions. Yet, some of them that claim this have admitted they haven't even read the whole Bible.

I agree, and I do not condemn the people in those 'churches'. Only the way in which the church walks goes against the commandements of Christ. Christ says that those who are great in the church cannot lord it over the others, yet the leaders take all decisions. Paul says that when we come together, a prophet ought to speak, and the others judge. We have one pastor speak, everyone else sit and be quiet. All in the church are supposed to function in their gifts, yet in the 'church' there is one person or group bringing music, and one person bringing a message. Paul says that when we come together, each ought to bring something, one a song, another a teaching, another a psalm. We have one man bring one teaching, and the rest are supposed to just listen.

What we call 'the church' is not functioning as the church and not being the pillar and ground of the truth. In Christ there is unity, but the devil seeks to divide. The church is all divided up.

Christ has not called us to this 'playing church'. He has called us to true fellowship, with him and the Father, and thus with the brothers who also have fellowship with him, each person functioning in their gift and walking according to freedom in the Spirit, that he may lead. We've got agendas and schedules for sunday meetings, the Spirit is stiffled from the get go!

Let me put it this way... I may make errors in typing sometimes... But one thing I'm careful about -- especially in cases like this -- is to make a difference in "church" and "Church". What's the difference? The capital "C". There is only one "Church". There's a lot of "churches". Understand the difference?



Exactly, in other words, the Pharisees did have truth, but they didn't. It depends what you mean by it. They had factual truth, but no true understanding. The same is true in the mainstream church today.

I'll go with that.... And state it's worse today in all churches, but not the "Church".

 

[Prentis]

Out of all what you said, that makes the most sense.

Sounds like you disagree with way things are done in the services of Churches today. I definitely disagree with how some of them operate, like with those that spend much of their time playing music or jumping up and down in the aisles instead of teaching God's Word line upon line like they're supposed to do.

Actually...

It's not just about how we do our services. It goes deeper than that... The core of the functioning of the mainstream church is corrupt because it (1) works with the government, is led by (2) men trained by men, rather than men trained of God who have the anointing of God. (3) It plays with the powers of this world and with money, and goes against the biblical principles that 'freely you received, freely give'. (4) Works according to it's own agenda, rather than giving up all it's agendas and letting God have his way.

Subtlely, the maintsream Church (capital 'C') has gone directly, 180 degrees against the revelation of Christ. It has used the revelation of Christ to boost man's system and be part of it, rather than subvert it.

Honestly, it's not about my personal 'liking of disliking' of how they do their services. It's about the fact that the Gospel of Christ has been perverted and turned into something else.

To FHII.

So having a Bible makes us better off? I disagree. Don't get me wrong, having a bible is a great ool and it is an advantage.

But we've got lots of disadvantages. ie The early church was working in the Spirit, Paul, Peter, and the Apostles spoke directly according to the Spirit and had discernment because of their training with JESUS. We've got training in seminaries that actually goes against the teaching of Christ.

"How can we lure more people in?" Ok, they wont use lure because it sounds bad, but they mean the same thing. Christ did the opposite, he loved people, but if they couldn't take the truth, they couldn't follow him, as simple as that. 'If you do not drink my blood and eat my flesh, you cannot be my disciple' he says to the group following him, and most stop following. He just goes on.

The mainstream Church (yes, capital 'C') goes against the revelation of Christ, that is, atleast in the western world.

 

[FHII]

Subtlely, the maintsream Church (capital 'C') has gone directly, 180 degrees against the revelation of Christ. It has used the revelation of Christ to boost man's system and be part of it, rather than subvert it.

I consider that blasphemous and an attack against God's wife. Especially since you decided that the Bride of Christ (the Church with a capital "C") is against Christ. If so, no one is saved. I would agree that the mainstream churches (lower case "c") are doing that.

Wow.... Prentis, you have some explaining to do! Either I don't understand you, or you are condemning the true believers and followers of God. This is the type of thing that I can't forgive unless there is an explanation or repentance on your part.

 

[Prentis]

Then let me do some explaining!

First of all, I would say this; maybe we dont mean exactly the same thing by capital 'C'. And notice I put 'maintream Church'.

Now here's for the explaining. I do not condemn the people in those churches, they are not mine to judge, and I do believe that there are true honest genuine believers in it, who, yes, have faith in Christ. I love the people in there. But I do not for so much condone the system they are in.

In China, there are two churches, the one who is with the government (and corrupt), and the underground church. This has become true of the whole world. As the Pharisees did with the OT, so a part of the world, the crowd, has taken the NT and made religion out of it. And as it was in the day of Jesus, there are among the believers, some false believers.

One church works according to man's teaching, in China, and compromises truth for the sake of having the government on it's side. While another church is underground, persecuted, loves, and does not compromise the truth.

Sadly, in the rich western society, it is like Laodicea; we think we are rich and well off spiritually. There is only very little of an underground church, and you can barely even call it that. Yes, the mainstream church has compromised with the world. Was Israel, God's people, not unfaithfull? And did the prophets not cry out against it's unfaithfullness? Why then is calling the portion of the bride that has been unfaithfall on what it does so offensive to you? Israel strayed, and the new Israel, the church, has also.

Of course, there is always a remnant, as it in the time of Elijah. But the main part, that is known to the world as the church, has indeed had other lovers.

 

[aspen]

Then let me do some explaining!

First of all, I would say this; maybe we dont mean exactly the same thing by capital 'C'. And notice I put 'maintream Church'.

Now here's for the explaining. I do not condemn the people in those churches, they are not mind to judge, and I do believe that there are true honest genuine believers in it, who, yes, have faith in Christ. I love the people in there. But I do not for so much condone the system they are in.

In China, there are two churches, the one who is with the government (and corrupt), and the underground church. This has become true of the whole world. As the Pharisees did with the OT, so a part of the world, the crowd, has taken the NT and made religion out of it. And as it was in the day of Jesus, there are among the believers, some false believers.

One church works according to man's teaching, in China, and compromises truth for the sake of having the government on it's side. While another church is underground, persecute, loves, and does not compromise the truth.

Sadly, in the rich western society, it is like Laodicea; we think we are rich and well off spiritually. There is only very little of an underground church, and you can barely even call it that. Yes, the mainstream church has compromised with the world. Was Israel, God's people, not unfaithfull? And did the prophets not cry out against it's unfaithfullness? Why then is calling the portion of the bride that has been unfaithfall on what it does so offensive to you? Israel strayed, and the new Israel, the church, has also.

Of course, there is always a remnant, as it in the time of Elijah. But the main part, that is know to the world as the church, has indeed had other lovers.

Nope! You are definitely not Catholic!! HAHA

 

[Prentis]

Nope! You are definitely not Catholic!! HAHA

:lol:

 

[lightning63]

Prentis said this, and I think it is totally relevant to the thread

Here, for tomwebster, this is what I was referring to:
Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.
1 Timothy 1:4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.




The passages are used to explain that people in the church should spend less time arguing over trivial myths, and more time living a life according to God, serving God, and living by faith. The quote makes more sense if more of the paragraph is written out.

1 Timothy 1:3-11
As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith. The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered into vain discussion, desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions. Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.


It's good to learn about the Bible, and that can include a discussion about the passages. The passage is basically explaining that it is better to spend time doing God's work and living by faith, than arguing over things that aren't about the Bible and distract from the Bible. The passage explains it is better to live by faith, than speculating over myths.

I think the bride of Christ is the city of Heaven. God calls the city of Jerusalem his bride in the Old Testament, so it follows the the New Jerusalem in heaven would again be the bride in Revelation.

 

[veteran]

Prentis said this, and I think it is totally relevant to the thread

Here, for tomwebster, this is what I was referring to:
Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.
1 Timothy 1:4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.




The passages are used to explain that people in the church should spend less time arguing over trivial myths, and more time living a life according to God, serving God, and living by faith. The quote makes more sense if more of the paragraph is written out.

1 Timothy 1:3-11
As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus so that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine, nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith. The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered into vain discussion, desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions. Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.


It's good to learn about the Bible, and that can include a discussion about the passages. The passage is basically explaining that it is better to spend time doing God's work and living by faith, than arguing over things that aren't about the Bible and distract from the Bible. The passage explains it is better to live by faith, than speculating over myths.

I think the bride of Christ is the city of Heaven. God calls the city of Jerusalem his bride in the Old Testament, so it follows the the New Jerusalem in heaven would again be the bride in Revelation.

So the genealogies written in God's Word are not part of God's Word, and we should just pass over them? disregard any message within them? I guarantee you, Apostle Paul was not speaking of Bible geneaologies. I constantly see brethren misuse what Paul said there as a vain excuse to not study all of God's Holy Writ, including coverage of those genealogies.

 

[lightning63]

My perspective is that if the arguments cause divisions, and cause people to turn away from God and the faith and following God, then it is better to do God's work. I don't EVER support disregarding the Bible. The Bible should be followed very closely. I think i means saying something along the lines of, "My great great great great great great great great great uncle lived on a farm, so therefore blah blah blah and new rules, and now we should believe this myth and disregard the Bible and extra nonsense not related to the Bible and etc." Go ahead and read the genealogies in the Bible. Is it necessary to argue about the specific genealogies in the Bible? Most of the genealogies in the Bible are facts. Is it necessary to argue the facts?

 

[veteran]

The invention of divisiveness is also claimed by those of Christ's enemies who deny God's Word, which of course includes the genealogies written therein, especially Christ's lineage of Luke 3. But there are other matters in God's Word where the genealogy lists become very important because of a lesson contained therein.

In 1 Chronicles 4, a genealogy list of Judah, there appears a man named Jabez. Jabez is where some guy a few years ago started the Jabez Prayer fad books spread in Christian bookstores, even cards with a prayer on it based from the prayer for wealth that Jabez prayed per 1 Chron.4.

Problem is, there's no begat lineage from Judah for Jabez in that 1 Chron.4 list. Judah's genealogy suddenly stops with Jabez, and Jabez is being talked about as if inserted into the genealogy. Then after Jabez, the genealogy of Judah picks up again. When God's Word does that kind of subject change, it means to listen up, a deeper matter is involved.

In 1 Chron.2:55 we're told the scribes of the house of Rechab dwelt at the city of Jabez, and they were the Kenites, a foreign peoples that lived among the nations of Canaan before Israel left Egypt. The Message? God's warning about the "crept in unawares" among His people, a warning God gave before to Israel in Judges 3, a thing that caused Solomon's fall (1 Kings 11) and Israel's fall into Baal worship, and also a warning Apostle Peter and Jude gave in the New Testament (1 Pet.2:7-8; 2 Pet.2; Jude 1:3-4).

In Ezra 2, a post-Babylon captivity Book, Ezra lists the small remnant of the three tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi that returned to Jerusalem to build the 2nd temple and Jerusalem. Many foreigners called Nethinims that had become Israelite priests were listed by Ezra returning with those of Israel. In Ezra 8 he would even remark that he saw none of the sons of Levi returning among the people at first, and he sent one of the head Nethinims back to Babylon to get Levite priests that would be needed for service in the 2nd temple. The Message? Once again, the Bible subject of the "crept in unawares" that God said He would use pagan foreigners to test Israel with, to see if the children of Israel would follow Him or not.

So it's not the idea of blood lineage that is the Message now since Christ died on the cross. Yet it's still a Message in God's Word of one of the main causes of Israel's fall into idol worship per history. With Jezebel, the pagan wife of king Ahab of Israel, we see this problem again. Jezebel was daughter of the king of Sidon, a pagan people near Lebanon that worshiped Baal and Phoenician goddess Ashteroth. She specifically had many of Israel's prophets murdered, and swore to kill God's prophet Elijah (1 Kings 19:2).

Another thing the Bible genealogy subject is about is with understanding the Message in God's Word about the split of old Israel into two separate kingdoms, with one of the tribe of Ephraim setup over the ten tribes as king. In Ezek.37, God declares through His prophet Ezekiel that He will in final join the two sticks of the two 'houses' of Israel back into one stick in His hand, and will gather them back to the lands He promised their fathers, and they would all have one Head (our Lord Jesus Christ). And David would again be their prince.

If one has not paid attention to the Bible genealogy with the different tribes of Israel, they will never... understand to whom many of God's later prophecies are given to after their split. The majority of my Christian brethren are definitely... confused on that matter still today, which is how they are being manipulated into believing those prophecies are meant for someone else than whom God said.

Ultimately, disregarding Bible genealogy means not being able to understand a whole lot of God's written Word, a working that Satan's workers love for us to be ignorant of. So if those who have... studied those matters in God's Word make others that have not feel Biblically illiterate sometimes, that's just the way it is.

With that being said, does this matter have a Lesson for us Christians today? You bet it does, otherwise Apostle Paul, Peter, Jude, etc., would not have warned us about wolves in sheep's clothing. Today there is an Inter-Faith joining going on in many Christian Churches. Invites to leaders and priests of other religions, like Buddhism, are being given by Christian leaders for them to come into their Christian Church and give talks on a multitude of eastern mystical practices involving paganism, like eastern meditation, breathing exercieses, and lessons on morality outside of God's Word.

Thus if Christianity could be characterized as God's Israel today of The Spirit, then those very things are a repeat of old Israel's history of allowing the "crept in unawares" to come into the congregation and dillute God's Holy Writ in the name of 'religion'.

 

[Prentis]

I just wanted clarify, by genealogies, I mean arguing over things like, for example, what a plane can and can't do...

:lol:

Jake, BibleScribe, sorry, couldn't resist, too funny.

Of course, I don't mean it... I know you used it as an analogy. Analogy and genealogy might sound very similar, but they have nothing in common! (except that they come from Greek)