Assurance of salvation.

[BarneyFife]

import how? ty

Oh, and you're very welcome!

 

[Johann]

Well, as I'm sure you have divined by now, I'm a Seventh-day Adventist, so I have been exposed to mainly an Arminian view of assurance but I cannot deny the Lutheran view interests and intrigues me. I feel like there's a great tension among brethren between the degree of human and divine involvement in the final outcome of a believer's destiny.

Personally, predestination doesn't necessitate predeterminism, to my mind. I think God can easily pull that off. Religious liberty is, in a very real sense, a foundational pillar of my faith. It is a matter of the integrity of the very character of God, as I see it.

We have this treasure in earthen vessels, of course, so I speak as a man in language that is greatly limited in expressing the mystery of redemption. I believe redemption is fairly simple for us, but very complicated and intricate for God, Who, of course, is well able to accomplish it.

Did you mean that you, me, or Puritanism is not very popular here? lol

Well, as I'm sure you have divined by now, I'm a Seventh-day Adventist, so I have been exposed to mainly an Arminian view of assurance but I cannot deny the Lutheran view interests and intrigues me. I feel like there's a great tension among brethren between the degree of human and divine involvement in the final outcome of a believer's destiny.

Personally, predestination doesn't necessitate predeterminism, to my mind. I think God can easily pull that off. Religious liberty is, in a very real sense, a foundational pillar of my faith. It is a matter of the integrity of the very character of God, as I see it.

We have this treasure in earthen vessels, of course, so I speak as a man in language that is greatly limited in expressing the mystery of redemption. I believe redemption is fairly simple for us, but very complicated and intricate for God, Who, of course, is well able to accomplish it.

Did you mean that you, me, or Puritanism is not very popular here? lol

Dear Barney
AH! How I wish I could communicate like you and paint pictures with words.
English is not my first language.
At the moment I am going through a tremendous inner battle re the doctrines of the Puritans and reformers especially on election and total depravity...
Like you I grew up believing the Armenians is correct and doctrinally sound..that is until a few years ago I stumble upon the Reformed view.
Since then I am emotionally and spiritually "sweating great drops of blood"
For every scripture the Armenians hold on universal acceptance, God so loved the world...
"Whosoever will may come."
This would not be proper, of course, if the theme were not a Scriptural one. It would hardly be safe to take the words of a man-made hymn as the basis for a positive discussion and presentation of the truth of the gospel.
Many a hymn has served and still serves as a medium to instill false doctrine into the hearts and minds of those that sing them. But with respect to the particular hymn that bears the title "Whosoever Will" it may be said that its words are almost literally taken from Scripture, and that, therefore, no Christian can have any objection to it, provided it is properly understood, and interpreted in connection with the rest of the doctrine concerning salvation by grace.

The words of it are probably in part taken from Rev. 22:19, where we read: "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Moreover, the same truth is repeatedly expressed in Holy Writ in different forms. In Isa. 55:1-3 we read: "Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labor for that which satisfieth not? Hearken diligently unto me, and eat that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness. Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David." To those who complain that they pine away in their sins, and that, therefore, there is no hope of life for them, the Lord declares: "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" Ezek. 33:11. The Lord assures us: "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." Matt. 7:7, 8. And He sends forth the call promiscuously: "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." Matt. 11:28.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. And on the great day of the feast of tabernacles in Jerusalem He cried out: "If any man thirsts, let him come unto me and drink."
...the above is the Armenian view...read attachment...

Chapter 1 - Whosoever Will May Come (Rev.22:17b)

...I know I don't make sense Barney...

 

[BarneyFife]

Where He leads us, should we not follow? No where else to go for alone what hope do any of us have?

I knew that was Ol' Hank!

 

[amadeus]

import how? ty

Try this one: smileys - Bing images

Simply right click on image desired and click on "copy image". Then paste the image here and post it.

 

[amadeus]

I knew that was Ol' Hank!

Even before my time really. My mother had a large collection of the old vinyl 78 RPM records. I used to listen to them and learned to appreciate that which was much older than me.

 

[BarneyFife]

Dear Barney
AH! How I wish I could communicate like you and paint pictures with words.
English is not my first language.
At the moment I am going through a tremendous inner battle re the doctrines of the Puritans and reformers especially on election and total depravity...
Like you I grew up believing the Armenians is correct and doctrinally sound..that is until a few years ago I stumble upon the Reformed view.
Since then I am emotionally and spiritually "sweating great drops of blood"
For every scripture the Armenians hold on universal acceptance, God so loved the world...
"Whosoever will may come."
This would not be proper, of course, if the theme were not a Scriptural one. It would hardly be safe to take the words of a man-made hymn as the basis for a positive discussion and presentation of the truth of the gospel.
Many a hymn has served and still serves as a medium to instill false doctrine into the hearts and minds of those that sing them. But with respect to the particular hymn that bears the title "Whosoever Will" it may be said that its words are almost literally taken from Scripture, and that, therefore, no Christian can have any objection to it, provided it is properly understood, and interpreted in connection with the rest of the doctrine concerning salvation by grace.

The words of it are probably in part taken from Rev. 22:19, where we read: "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Moreover, the same truth is repeatedly expressed in Holy Writ in different forms. In Isa. 55:1-3 we read: "Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labor for that which satisfieth not? Hearken diligently unto me, and eat that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness. Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David." To those who complain that they pine away in their sins, and that, therefore, there is no hope of life for them, the Lord declares: "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" Ezek. 33:11. The Lord assures us: "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." Matt. 7:7, 8. And He sends forth the call promiscuously: "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." Matt. 11:28.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. And on the great day of the feast of tabernacles in Jerusalem He cried out: "If any man thirsts, let him come unto me and drink."
...the above is the Armenian view...read attachment...

Chapter 1 - Whosoever Will May Come (Rev.22:17b)

...I know I don't make sense Barney...

You think too much, Joe. And you're way too hard on yourself. Welcome to the club. I think I actually grew up Calvinist and didn't even know it at the time! My people were Southern Baptist and I distinctly remember my father using the phrase: "Them Freewill Baptists." Your words make perfect sense. You don't need to be doctrinally perfect to yoke up with Christ and bear His light burden. In fact, trying to rush and strain toward pure orthodoxy will actually slow you down, cause you to make unnecessary mistakes, and disturb the peace your Saviour so anxiously wants you to have. He paid for it with His precious life, and He is not pleased to see us worn and weary by trying to run ahead of Him. Sanctification is the work of a lifetime. He will bring us to as verily a perfection in our sphere as He is in His. Only believe.

I'm trying to make time to start a thread on the plain and simple Everlasting Gospel. I hope it can bear some good fruit. It may take a week or so to collect my thoughts and draft a good essay-type OP. I want it to be something that can affect everyone to encourage one another to bask in the Father's love for us in literally giving His Son to the human race as not only a Saviour and LORD, but a Brother and Friend.

I'm going to check out your link right now.

Blessings,
Ol' Barn

 

[BarneyFife]

Try this one: smileys - Bing images

Simply right click on image desired and click on "copy image". Then paste the image here and post it.

Hey, that's cool!!

 

[BarneyFife]

Even before my time really. My mother had a large collection of the old vinyl 78 RPM records. I used to listen to them and learned to appreciate that which was much older than me.

Poor ol' Hank

 

[Bob Carabbio]

That is a very true statement Bob, but they are not saved unless they endure to the end. Born again ones can and do leave God. One difference though, if they apostatize, it is over for them Heb 6:4-6

ANd your version of God simply lets people "slip away" and there's no security in salvation????

 

[BarneyFife]

@amadeus

Have you heard this, John? It's about Hank.
The wife and I actually went to see Alan Jackson in Hershey about 20 years ago.
We love to listen to him and Tracy Lawrence.

 

[BarneyFife]

Never heard of this.

Me, neither. I think I might have formulated the term, myself. It's just that I was so keenly aware of it growing up, as I did, in a Southern Baptist home. The first time unconditional eternal security was explained to me, I thought it was absolutely ridiculous. Now I think it's just one more cup of the wine of the daughters of Babylon. It's unfortunate that people are offended by that, but you gotta go with what you know, right?

Did the tax collector fall on his knees and cry out because he was sincere?

Absolutely not! (although I'm sure he was)

are you die daily and that's why you think you earn salvation?

I don't remember ever saying salvation could be earned. It is the gift of God, not by works, lest any man should boast.

Not sure what you mean bro. DO not want to misread you. enough of that goes on here.

I'll grant you that a gift that must be held onto (as some would call "maintained"), or at least picked up again when it's dropped is quite a paradox, but the Bible is full of those, and defaulting to one side of an argument is never the answer. The Bible is like the seamless garment Christ wore. It cannot be divided or selectively accepted, like a buffet. I'm just speaking in general here. I accuse no one.

I'm becoming more and more of a Lutheran/Arminianist hybrid when it comes to assurance of salvation. The Arminian position generally does not sufficiently emphasize God's sustaining grace for perseverance. The Bible speaks entirely too much of the anxious longsuffering of God and His pursuit of man's heart for it to be as neglected as it is in the Arminian churches. But, then, much is being neglected in all churches.

 

[amadeus]

Hey, that's cool!!

 

[BarneyFife]

lol

 

[BarneyFife]

I don't know how it knows to insert the BB code from just pasting ¿

 

[amadeus]

...a little bit of this, a little bit of that..here a little, there a little...

"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

 

[amadeus]

I don't know how it knows to insert the BB code from just pasting ¿

I don't even know what a "BB code" is. Talk about speaking in a foreign language...

 

[amadeus]

Forgot to mention the Puritans...I am a veracious reader.
God bless you Barney..not very "popular" on this forum
J.

Jesus was quite popular at the beginning of his ministry, but later on where were all of the thousands who ate the bread and the fishes?

"And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed." John 6:25-27

 

[amadeus]

@amadeus

Have you heard this, John? It's about Hank.
The wife and I actually went to see Alan Jackson in Hershey about 20 years ago.
We love to listen to him and Tracy Lawrence.

Thanks for sharing. I did like his voice, but I could not understand the lyrics. My ears.

I have heard a little from Alan Jackson, but not that song. I listen once in a while to a few old songs, but mostly these days, gospel and worship songs. Few newer songs catch my attention at all. I know that part of the reason I am partial to older songs, is that I remember the lyrics.

 

[Johann]

You think too much, Joe. And you're way too hard on yourself. Welcome to the club. I think I actually grew up Calvinist and didn't even know it at the time! My people were Southern Baptist and I distinctly remember my father using the phrase: "Them Freewill Baptists." Your words make perfect sense. You don't need to be doctrinally perfect to yoke up with Christ and bear His light burden. In fact, trying to rush and strain toward pure orthodoxy will actually slow you down, cause you to make unnecessary mistakes, and disturb the peace your Saviour so anxiously wants you to have. He paid for it with His precious life, and He is not pleased to see us worn and weary by trying to run ahead of Him. Sanctification is the work of a lifetime. He will bring us to as verily a perfection in our sphere as He is in His. Only believe.

I'm trying to make time to start a thread on the plain and simple Everlasting Gospel. I hope it can bear some good fruit. It may take a week or so to collect my thoughts and draft a good essay-type OP. I want it to be something that can affect everyone to encourage one another to bask in the Father's love for us in literally giving His Son to the human race as not only a Saviour and LORD, but a Brother and Friend.

I'm going to check out your link right now.

Blessings,
Ol' Barn

Barney, my brother in Christ, as I study the scriptures really trying to rebut the doctrines of the reformers and puritans, in Greek and Hebrew, weighing and parsing every word together with the morphology and syntax and asking for illumination the more I realize they are correct and my doctrine is in error.
...to the point that I am not so cock sure re my salvation brother.
There is a way that seemeth right in the eyes of man..but the end?

Please look up the link and whatever you do dear friend, do not compromise on the scriptures.

Thank you for the words of encouragement Barney I really, really appreciate it.
Yours in Christ
J.

 

[bbyrd009]

God gives us the choice of life or death Byrd Deut 30:19,20; He encourages us to choose life. The Bible speaks a lot about life and death, and points out that the most of humans will choose the path to death Mat 7:13.

You seem to accept that anyone who claims to be a Christian is a Christian, however Jesus disagrees and clearly states that Christians can be identified by their fruits. Inbickering and fighting in the Christian congregation is not tolerated, and anyone who does it is an apostate, and will be put out 2 Jn 9-11.

i meant to refer to the doctrinal differences of other Christian congregations—at least nominally, since i suspect that no two believers believe exactly alike even in the same congregation—so, diff context i guess