Atheism and Christianity

[David H.]

When I talk about judging, I mean by that, judging someone’s eternal fate. I have not done that. It’s what I’m trying to get others not to do so they keep themselves safe.

And I am saying without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God. So that atheist remains condemned already to hell.... Whatever you believe hell to be. I Happen to believe hell is eternal torment, but that is a different discussion.

You do not know the op’s intent with that question.

No, But I know the source of this sort of questioning, and it is straight from the devil himself.

I’m not offended. I think if I keep repeating it someone might finally believe me. You aren’t even talking about self righteousness versus holiness (which is what we were discussing) and I’m not “going after” anyone. That’s literally not happening. I realize it’s the perception of at least two men in here now, but it’s a false perception.

RE: Holiness vs. Self Righteousness. I was thinking of writing a post on this topic, because it is worth speaking of. I Don't know when I have time to write this though as I am very busy. This is not the place to discuss this.

As for going after people you are the one accusing us of judging you, and judging unbelievers by refusing to consider the validity of this question that is based on a logical and Biblical impossibility.
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I’m not going to keep arguing your indoctrinations that accept half the verses and reject the other half, David. If anyone cares to look into these things to see if what they’ve been taught is the complete gospel they can do so.

I would normally here bring up the difference between being accepted and being pleasing to God but it would not be fruitful at this time.

 

[David H.]

I’m not going to keep arguing your indoctrinations that accept half the verses and reject the other half, David. If anyone cares to look into these things to see if what they’ve been taught is the complete gospel they can do so.

This is the second time you have said this and I have no idea what you are saying. Do you deny there is such a thing as self righteousness?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

This is the second time you have said this and I have no idea what you are saying. Do you deny there is such a thing as self righteousness?

No, I don’t deny it. It’s when you think you are as righteous as Jesus and in need of nothing and you condemn and grind the faces of those who sometimes truly ARE humble and doing right into the dirt and you make sad who God did not want to be sad and promise life to wicked men.

Some filthy men will be welcomed into eternal habitations before self righteous religious men.

 

[Wynona]

An atheist who keeps to the commandments of God, but doesn't believe in Christ. Can such person make heaven

Maybe, if they haven't gotten a chance to hear the gospel and become Christian.

Acts 10:34-35

King James Version

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34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

 

[David H.]

It’s when you think you are as righteous as Jesus and in need of nothing and you condemn and grind the faces of those who sometimes truly ARE humble and doing right into the dirt and you make sad who God did not want to be sad and promise life to wicked men.

And when did I do that above, as you accuse me of doing? Apart from the grace of God all mankind is condemned already. John 3:18. Pointing out this fact is not "condemning" them and "grinding their faces", But rather pointing them to the redemption that cross brings. TRUE obedience only comes Through the Spirit.... Not just an external adherence to the law (Legalism/self righteousness), but a transformation of the heart (Holiness/godliness).

Atheists are those who know of God yet choose not to believe.... Knowingly and consciously.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And when did I do that above, as you accuse me of doing? Apart from the grace of God all mankind is condemned already. John 3:18. Pointing out this fact is not "condemning" them and "grinding their faces", But rather pointing them to the redemption that cross brings. TRUE obedience only comes Through the Spirit.... Not just an external adherence to the law (Legalism/self righteousness), but a transformation of the heart (Holiness/godliness).

Atheists are those who know of God yet choose not to believe.... Knowingly and consciously.

You have NOT understood what the doctrine of imputed righteousness does to men. But aside from that, you asked me if I believed there was such a thing as self righteousness. I said yes and I defined what it is. Me defining self righteousness is not accusing you of anything - it’s giving a definition. Here is the definition again:

It’s when you think you are as righteous as Jesus and in need of nothing and you condemn and grind the faces of those who sometimes truly ARE humble and doing right into the dirt and you make sad who God did not want to be sad and promise life to wicked men.

 

[David H.]

You have NOT understood what the doctrine of imputed righteousness does to men. But aside from that, you asked me if I believed there was such a thing as self righteousness. I said yes and I defined what it is. Me defining self righteousness is not accusing you of anything - it’s giving a definition. Here is the definition again:

once again, your use of pronouns throws people off. If you don't want it to read as an accusation, then you should stop using "You" in place of "They". This is not some liberal pronoun enforcement, but rather proper grammar. I Added the words in parenthesis to your quote below so you can see this. When I read this i saw you accusing me of these things.... I Hope this helps.

It’s when you(THEY) think you (THEY) are as righteous as Jesus and in need of nothing and you(THEN THEY) condemn and grind the faces of those who sometimes truly ARE humble and doing right into the dirt and you(THEY) make sad who God did not want to be sad and promise life to wicked men.

For the record, I am not innocent in this regard as I use the "proverbial you" from time to time as well, and see how that can be taken wrong in my own writings.

BTW I do understand what the doctrine of imputed righteousness taken the wrong way does to men. (Turns the grace of God into lasciviousness) That does not mean that imputation is not true and is not biblical.... another word for it is justification. A good reading of Romans 4-5 will clarify this, if you need further clarification. This is not me repeating my "indoctrination" but rather what the Word of God teaches.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

once again, your use of pronouns throws people off. If you don't want it to read as an accusation, then you should stop using "You" in place of "They". This is not some liberal pronoun enforcement, but rather proper grammar. I Added the words in parenthesis to your quote below so you can see this. When I read this i saw you accusing me of these things.... I Hope this helps.

Maybe you could just not assume the worst about me, that I am attacking you. I use the words I use to express myself. I grew up being constantly corrected and having every word out of my mouth controlled by someone who bristled as if everything I said was tearing her down and making her appear less than perfect in her mind. Everything had to be gone over, adjusted, and then repeated again, to make her feel good about herself and make me feel awful and as if I was too dumb to speak English correctly. And I see that same sickness happening, unchecked and out of rational control, in the world and I’m not going to have any part of it. The problem is not the words I use to express my thoughts. The problem is in your own head and emotions. If I was explaining how to bake a cake, I would not say, well first “they” turn the oven to 325 degrees. Then “they“ get out a pan…then “they” take out the cake to cool. I would say “you.”
Maybe I’ll address the rest of your post later. Excuse me - their post later. I have a stress headache from you once again trying to make me use only words that make you feel good about yourself. I feel like I’m in an Orwell novel.

It’s when you(THEY) think you (THEY) are as righteous as Jesus and in need of nothing and you(THEN THEY) condemn and grind the faces of those who sometimes truly ARE humble and doing right into the dirt and you(THEY) make sad who God did not want to be sad and promise life to wicked men.

For the record, I am not innocent in this regard as I use the "proverbial you" from time to time as well, and see how that can be taken wrong in my own writings.

BTW I do understand what the doctrine of imputed righteousness taken the wrong way does to men. (Turns the grace of God into lasciviousness) That does not mean that imputation is not true and is not biblical.... another word for it is justification. A good reading of Romans 4-5 will clarify this, if you need further clarification. This is not me repeating my "indoctrination" but rather what the Word of God teaches.

 

[amigo de christo]

Christians have the right to Judge.

I Corinthians 2:15-16 - But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For " who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him". But we have the mind of Christ.

The Holy Spirit gives us the clarity to see proper judgement. But the world doesn't understand this.

Galatians 2:20 - I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

exactly .

 

[amigo de christo]

ITS LORD PRAISING TIME in the building peoples . SO let all that has breath praise and thank the glorious LORD .
STAY DUG IN THOSE BIBLES TOO .

 

[amigo de christo]

Maybe, if they haven't gotten a chance to hear the gospel and become Christian.

Acts 10:34-35​

​

King James Version​

​

​

34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

He was talking about Cornelious who actually DID believe in GOD .
How can one FEAR GOD if they dont EVEN BELIEVE IN HIM . notice he says , HE that FEARS GOD and worketh righteousness .

 

[Wynona]

He was talking about Cornelious who actually DID believe in GOD .
How can one FEAR GOD if they dont EVEN BELIEVE IN HIM . notice he says , HE that FEARS GOD and worketh righteousness .

Fair point, brother.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

He was talking about Cornelious who actually DID believe in GOD .
How can one FEAR GOD if they dont EVEN BELIEVE IN HIM . notice he says , HE that FEARS GOD and worketh righteousness .

He wasn’t only talking about Cornelius. He said, “in every nation, he that fears God…”
Cornelius was not ”in every nation.”

 

[amigo de christo]

Fair point, brother.

Jesus even said the gospel would FIRST be preached in all the world , THEN the end would come .
Did you know most everyone , including atheists have heard the gospel and know something about JESUS .
Yet DENY HIM . ANYONE who hears and rejects WILL be damned .
And GOD in HIS LOVE would first have the gospel preached to all , SO it sounds like everyone got a chance to at least hear it .
THEN cometh the end . most atheists i debate or talk to , KNOW more about the bible than most christains .
I challenge us all to go and simply ask every person you meet , whether they agree or not , HAVE you ever heard
about JESUS . You would be amazed at how many have and yet DENY HIM . Yet on we go
we must preach CHRIST to all that has breath in hopes some will hear and repent to believe on HIM .

 

[amigo de christo]

He wasn’t only talking about Cornelius. He said, “in every nation, he that fears God…”

And cornelious DID . This is not the same as one who follows some other false religoin or god .
You seem to apt to give folks a false hope . We better preach CHRIST as the only means to be saved
give no one any false hope in any false religoin or no religion .
Not even the jews were saved lest they came to CHRIST . lets not forget that .
And since we are on the note about Good works . LETS take a good long look at CORNELIOUS .
HE did much good , he worshipped the jewish GOD . HE did many alms , many prayers ,
YET HE STILL had hear the gospel and believe in order to BE SAVED . AS I SAID lets not give folks a false hope .
GIVE THEM THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST or at least let me DO IT .

 

[amigo de christo]

He wasn’t only talking about Cornelius. He said, “in every nation, he that fears God…”
Cornelius was not ”in every nation.”

and yet still cornelious had to hear words , the gospel whereby he and his house COULD be saved .
We cant omit the gospel . we cannot give false hope out . Go ye and preach the gospel
he who believes shalll be saved but he who believes not shall be damned . JESUS CHRIST said that . AS MY LORD
i take HIM at HIS every WORD .

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Here is part of the gospel.​

​

The Final Judgment​

31 “But when the Son of Man[a] comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. 32 All the nations[b] will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. 36 I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’

37 “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing?39 When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’

40 “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters,[c] you were doing it to me!’

41 “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.[d] 42 For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’

44 “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’

45 “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’

46 “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”


This sounds rather like some of the righteous are surprised and dont know who Jesus or His body are. They just helped their neighbor.
They say, huh…? When did we ever see you and help you…?

And it sounds like the others are even MORE surprised.
They say, huh…? When did we ever see you and NOT help you…??

The first didn’t recognize the body. They just helped others.
The second didn’t recognize the body of Christ either.
Yet the first are being judged by what they did, not by what they think or any doctrines.
And the second are being judged by what they did not do even though they had doctrines.

Who was judged harder? Those who said they could see. Those who, during life, condemned many of that first group, saying, I’m as righteous as Jesus and will live forever while anything you do is filthy rags to God and you will be tortured forever no matter how caring you might be of your neighbor.


7 “Do not [a]judge, so that you will not be judged. 2 For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and [b]by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

 

[Wrangler]

An atheist who keeps to the commandments of God, but doesn't believe in Christ. Can such person make heaven

The test of salvation per the NT is to have the humility to admit you cannot meet the standard on your own and need a savior, aka faith.

If you have such pride as to assert your own strength of character will meet God’s standard - without reliance on his son - you have doomed yourself.

 

[amigo de christo]

Here is part of the gospel.​

​

The Final Judgment​

31 “But when the Son of Man[a] comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. 32 All the nations[b] will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. 36 I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’

37 “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing?39 When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’

40 “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters,[c] you were doing it to me!’

41 “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.[d] 42 For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’

44 “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’

45 “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’

46 “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”


This sounds rather like some of the righteous are surprised and dont know who Jesus or His body are. They just helped their neighbor.
They say, huh…? When did we ever see you and help you…?

And it sounds like the others are even MORE surprised.
They say, huh…? When did we ever see you and NOT help you…??

The first didn’t recognize the body. They just helped others.
The second didn’t recognize the body of Christ either.
Yet the first are being judged by what they did, not by what they think or any doctrines.
And the second are being judged by what they did not do even though they had doctrines.

Rather it sounds like JESUS is making a point about being hearers and doers of the WORD .
You just want to see it like that cause you believe in this inclusvism stuff .
JESUS often spoke and taught in parables to MAKE A POINT .
JESUS would not use a parable that contradicts TRUTH HE SPOKE in other parts about those WHO believed not .
SEE , you want to SEE it your way . but your way is NOT right , nor does it rightly divide the truth .
For the TRUTH of CHRIST does not contradict HIS WORDS . HE dont walk around contradicting himself .
HE said very clearly GO and preach the gospel to all , those who believe will be saved but those who do not will be damned .
You cant change this cause you like pope francis all inclusive version better . This lie is nothing more than an attempt
by these so called men to have us shut down the preaching of the gospel and have all religoins join as one
under a govt ruled religion . THEY have long came in and tried to omit the dire necessity of having to BELIEVE IN CHRIST
cause that divides . they want us UNIFIED . SO they are creating this image of GOD that is all accepting of all religoins
and peoples so long as they have unity and love . Rather odd eh ........
Today more and more from all religoins are joining together as one , UNDER what they think is GOD but its the dragon .
And soon enough preaching JESUS as the only means to be saved , to know GOD ,
will be seen as evil and wrong as they fall for this we are one lie and that GODS NEW PLAN is for humanity to unite as one .
DONT FALL FOR IT . ITS the falling away . PREACH JESUS . give out no false hope .