Babylon

[Marilyn C]

Of course it makes sense, when one abides by the rules of prophetic interpretation in Daniel of what the symbols of beasts, heads, mountains and horns literally represent.

From Daniel, maybe you can correct yourself by learning what "beasts" are symbolic of.

Yes, beasts are representative of Kingdoms and their leader. (Dan. 7: 23 & 24)

 

[TribulationSigns]

The prophetic language of God is that of His foreknowledge of situations and events that are to come in the future upon the earth among men.
You don't understand the contextual message of God's thoughts in symbolism, whereby He must communicate to us on our level by His use of our human words.

Huh?! Communicate with us on our level, using our words? And this allowed you to privately interpret the beast as America and the image as the United Nations without showing God's Word where He said it.

Because His thoughts and His ways are not our thoughts and ways (Isa. 55:8-9), we can only understand Him by the help of His Holy Spirit dwelling within us, that is if we are listening to Him, and not that of the preconcieved thoughts of men and their doctrines of men (church-ianity).

Oh, you think you listened to God and now you believe He told you, without Scripture support, that the beast is America and the image of the beast is the United Nations. Where do you find God defined beast/image as? If you can't, then you do not have the truth.

 

[Rockerduck]

And this has not happened yet.

Oh yes it has. Only more recent times has a rebuild started, but it was in ruins for a good 2000 yrs. From 539 bc to Alexader the great destroying it completely.

 

[ewq1938]

That doesn`t make sense. The other beast, is a person. `He had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon.` (Rev. 13: 11)

Agreed.

That `false Prophet` will have two offices - religious and Economic. He will look harmless, (lamb) but will speak with the authority of the dragon, Satan.

But does he look like a lamb? He has two horns of a lamb but no other part of him is described as a lamb. In the Greek the word is actually lambkin, so the horns of a young lamb IOW two little horns.

The image of the 10 horned beast is the A/C who has 10 kings join him in a Federation ruling the world.

The image is not of the AC, but of his Empire. He commands ppl to create the image of his empire, then he causes it to come to life etc.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, beasts are representative of Kingdoms and their leader. (Dan. 7: 23 & 24)

The leader of the ten horned beast/kingdom is not a beast but a horn of the beast according to Daniel 7.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

 

[Earburner]

Huh?! Communicate with us on our level, using our words? And this allowed you to privately interpret the beast as America and the image as the United Nations without showing God's Word where He said it.




Oh, you think you listened to God and now you believe He told you, without Scripture support, that the beast is America and the image of the beast is the United Nations. Where do you find God defined beast/image as? If you can't, then you do not have the truth.

I gave you scripture support of what Rev. 13:11-16 means. In those words alone, God is self explanatory of "who is who". He is telling us of who it is that told the many to make an Image to the 10H beast.
By the Holy Spirit, it's not complicated to discern at all.

Edit: By the way, in Daniel 7:1-28 concerning the four beasts that were to come upon the face of the earth, God never said who the empires would be in name, but symbolically He did describe what they would be like.

So then, if you know who those four beast empires were, the question is, who told you who they were?
Ans. By discernment through the Holy Spirit, history did!!

In the same way, by discernment through the Holy Spirit, it is history that is telling me who the "another beast" is, as well as who the "image" of the beast is.

 

[Marilyn C]

Oh yes it has. Only more recent times has a rebuild started, but it was in ruins for a good 2000 yrs. From 539 bc to Alexader the great destroying it completely.

If it was destroyed completely then that is negating God`s word that says that when it is destroyed, it will never rise again. (Jer. 51: 63 & 64 Rev. 18: 21)

 

[Marilyn C]

Agreed.




But does he look like a lamb? He has two horns of a lamb but no other part of him is described as a lamb. In the Greek the word is actually lambkin, so the horns of a young lamb IOW two little horns.




The image is not of the AC, but of his Empire. He commands ppl to create the image of his empire, then he causes it to come to life etc.

The 2 little horns are - Religious and Economic, (Rev. 13:12 & 16)

The `deadly wound` is of the A/C thus the image is of him. (Rev. 13: 3, 12)

 

[Marilyn C]

The leader of the ten horned beast/kingdom is not a beast but a horn of the beast according to Daniel 7.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Agreed the leader is a horn (the Political power) of the 4th kingdom.

 

[Marilyn C]

I gave you scripture support of what Rev. 13:11-16 means. In those words alone, God is self explanatory of "who is who". He is telling us of who it is that told the many to make an Image to the 10H beast.
By the Holy Spirit, it's not complicated to discern at all.

Edit: By the way, in Daniel 7:1-28 concerning the four beasts that were to come upon the face of the earth, God never said who the empires would be in name, but symbolically He did describe what they would be like.

So then, if you know who those four beast empires were, the question is, who told you who they were?
Ans. By discernment through the Holy Spirit, history did!!

In the same way, by discernment through the Holy Spirit, it is history that is telling me who the "another beast" is, as well as who the "image" of the beast is.

Those 4 kingdoms of Dan. 7 are future to Daniel. Babylon had already arisen. They are contemporary to us and together are forming the final Gentile Global Government.

 

[ewq1938]

The 2 little horns are - Religious and Economic, (Rev. 13:12 & 16)

The book uses the metaphor of horns as kings so I would prefer to interpret the FP's horns in that way.

The `deadly wound` is of the A/C thus the image is of him. (Rev. 13: 3, 12)

The deadly wound is not ascribed to teh AC so I would not be able to agree. It's caused by a sword and the wound is healed but nothing else is stated.

The FP tells people to create an image of the first beast. Thus the image is of a kingdom, not a man because the ten horned beast is a kingdom, while the FP is a man who is the leader of the first beast. The FP is the AC.

 

[Earburner]

Huh?! Communicate with us on our level, using our words? And this allowed you to privately interpret the beast as America and the image as the United Nations without showing God's Word where He said it.




Oh, you think you listened to God and now you believe He told you, without Scripture support, that the beast is America and the image of the beast is the United Nations. Where do you find God defined beast/image as? If you can't, then you do not have the truth.

Dan ch. 7 is the scripture support for my understanding of Rev. 13:11-16.

 

[Rockerduck]

If it was destroyed completely then that is negating God`s word that says that when it is destroyed, it will never rise again. (Jer. 51: 63 & 64 Rev. 18: 21)

That's because the Revelation Babylon is not the same one. Its symbolic, a prophetic dream. A prophetic dream uses symbols, but the description is something else.

 

[Earburner]

The 2 little horns are - Religious and Economic, (Rev. 13:12 & 16)

The `deadly wound` is of the A/C thus the image is of him. (Rev. 13: 3, 12)

You need to take up a brief historical study about the Medio-Persian Empire, symbolized as a Ram with two horns. In God's use of symbolism, what did he mean by His description of that empire as a Ram having two horns?
In Daniel 8:20 what do the two horns symbolize or represent?
[20] The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
Edit:
the two horns on the Ram are symbolic of two kings of two forms of government united, orchestrating as one.

The same applies to the "another beast" with two horns in Rev. 13.
The USA has two forms of government (2 horns), being the Republicans and the Democrats. Both are united, orchestrating as one.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Dan ch. 7 is the scripture support for my understanding of Rev. 13:11-16.

No, it does not. Not at all.

The natural man, as a beast, the carnal man living by the flesh, the wicked man is without sound judgment and doesn't understand the Spiritual.

1st Corinthians 2:13-16

• "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
• But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
• But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
• For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."

I'm sure you've heard those verses before, but have you "heard" those verses before? The Spiritual man judgeth by that Spirit, but the natural man is like a beast, because he is evil and without the image of God, he is without sound judgment. That most believe something does not make something sound. Interpretation is not by committee, it's by the sound exegesis of God's word compared diligently "with" God's word.

And no, you can't be right in this instance. God is not giving us a "literal" history lesson about Greece, Persia, and Rome, but a "spiritual" history lesson about a far more sinister spiritual rule. Christ is the Prince of Peace, agree? What kingdom does He rule? Likewise, Satan is the Prince of this world, thus what kingdom does he rule? Their rules are not from physical nations or empires, but from spiritual principalities. That's what you and many others here don't understand. Even though God has stated it in many diverse ways again and again and again. You still eschew the Spiritual nature of what God is speaking about.

Ephesians 6:12

• "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

Whether we like it or not, God is here telling us that our battle is not against the power of empires, it's not even physical, it's not political, it's not against nations, it's against a "spiritual principality, a spiritual power and spiritual wickedness." Everyone reads these things but few take it to heart.

Colossians 2:14-15

• "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
• And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it[/i]."

These Principalities and powers that Christ spoiled were not Rome, it wasn't Greece or Persia, or even America but it was spiritual "Egypt" and spiritual principalities and rulers of the darkness of this world. The Christian must take his mind off the nations of this world and think on a nation from above and just how it is being attacked. Take our eyes off this world and put them on Christ. Selah!

Satan is thee beast, ruling through men, who are as beasts. Just as Satan is thee antichrist, ruling in many antichrists, which are men. There is a principle here that many of you are missing in your misinterpretation of Scripture. Think about it. Why does God call wicked men serpents, and calls Satan the serpent? Why is Christ called the Star, and we, His servants, called stars? The point I am making is that just because you cannot recognize Satan as the beast, and natural or carnal man as a beast, doesn't mean God doesn't.

1st Corinthians 15:32

• "If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die."

Did he wrestle with a physical bear, spar with a lion, or tangle with a leopard? No, his fight was with men who were "as beasts" in that they were without moral values, judgment, knowledge or wisdom.

If I might digress for a minute. What separates man from the dumb beasts of the field is his reasoning and intelligence. Man was created in the image or likeness of God so that (unlike dumb beasts) man was instilled with a certain intellect, reason and the inherent knowledge of His creator. Beasts have no reasoning, they have no knowledge, and they are not sensible. God often contrasts man with beast and even labels man a beast himself when he acts foolishly or without reasoning, or in a ravenous or vicious way. God even goes so far as to speak of man as a beast when illustrating man as unknowledgeable or simple (stupid, if you will). So the symbolism of a beast I believe is to illustrate man under influence of Satan acting without reason or knowledge, or when lacking in wisdom and understanding, as one acting foolishly. Look at King David when he said:

Psalms 73:22

• "So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee."

Apparently, God thinks the foolish and ignorant man "IS" as a beast.

Continue to next post...

 

[TribulationSigns]

Since you may not be a fan of a symbol of the rule of Satan. You may even insist that it does not make sense. See it as America and the United Nations make sense to you?

Look, you think it ridiculous that an image in Daniel of four beasts, one looking like a lion with wings, one like a bear and another as a leopard could symbolize the rule of Satan throughout earth history? hmmmmmmmm! Then let me ask you "pointedly" if you also think it ridiculous that in Revelation a very similar image of four living creatures, with wings, one creature like a lion, another like a calf, another with a face as a man, and the fourth like a flying eagle, could be symbolic of the rule of Christ?

You see it's not strange or ridiculous at all. Christ is the eternal promise of the Lion of the tribe of Judah, Christ is the calf or Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, Christ is the Man who would take away the sins of the world, and Christ is the eagle, the protector of all His people under His wings. Well, NO, this type of interpretation is not Ridiculous at all.

...Selah!

In case you haven't learned yet, scripture interprets scripture, not man, not history books, not popular opinion, and most certainly not Church tradition (though I readily admit, most Christians today may think so). Satan is the spirit and rule that contrasts the Spirit and Rule of God. He is the pseudo-Christ, the antithesis of God. So it is not only "not ridiculous," and, not only plausible, but these contrasting four creatures and four beasts reveal the truth of it.

The Bible is it's own interpreter. Is not the waters that bring life contrasted with the poisons that bring death? Is not the lamb contrasted with the wolf? Is not the good tree contrasted with the bad tree? Israel with Israel, children with children, sacrifice with sacrifice? So no, it's not ridiculous, it's exactly what we would expect if we have been studying the scriptures and know the consistency of God in His perfect design, cryptic imagery, and Biblical harmony. The symbolism isn't new or different, only the meaning is. No, it's not odd that God's Kingdom construct is symbolized by four living creatures, a Lion, a Lamb a Man and Eagle's wings, and Satan's kingdom construct is symbolized by four beasts, a Lion with wings, and Bear and a leopard. It's not odd interpretation at all, it's in harmony with the interpretations seen throughout the whole Bible. That the wind of heaven brought these four is not odd either, as it illustrates God's immutible sovereignty over even this. God sends these four beast, which are DEFINATELY not four nations or empires. You need to read Hosea carefully:

Hosea 13:7-9

• "Therefore I will be unto them as a lion: as a leopard by the way will I observe them:
• I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.
• Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help."

God will be unto them as the Lion, the Leopard and the Bear, and come against Israel. Sound familiar, humm??

Selah!

But, as I say, it's Spiritually discerned, so indeed many may dismiss it, but the wise will understand that all is not as it seems. It is the foolish who took things they do not understand when they came up with private interpreation of history of world empires, the stones of physical temple falling, first century generation, etc. Selah!

 

[TribulationSigns]

Oh, and one more things guys...

For those who read the Book of Daniel wherein the beasts described therein are specifically designed as physical empires of Babylon, Medes, Persia, Greece, Rome, etc...

Yes, it is true. But "the Old Testament concealed is the New Testament revealed." Yes, God uses the figures of 4 "diverse" beasts in Daniel, representing nations that fight against Israel. But listen to this... those nations prefigured Satan's kingdom just as Israel prefigured the kingdom of God. This does not mean that Satan's kingdom is literal nations, nor that the one beast in Revelation 13 represents 7 physical nations or 10 men. We cannot go back to the Old Testament earthly "types" to understand New Testament realities in the same way. For example, the literal Egypt is a type of the bondage of Satan's kingdom from where Christ set them free, right? Same with the literal nation of Babylon, it was a "type" of Satan's kingdom that held the children of Israel captive. Because God used these nations as types, doesn't mean that the types continue into the New Testament as literal nations or your favorite entities, America and the United Nations. In fact, I think if we consider the issue carefully we can see this representation right in the very context of Daniel chapter 7:

Daniel 7:17-18

• "These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
• But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever."

Here we have God illustrating these four beasts, and clearly declared that the saints of the most high shall take the kingdom. But listen, WHAT KINGDOM?? It certainly cannot be the literal nations of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Media, Greece or Rome of Old! For though four kingdoms (four beasts) or tyrant rulers would invade Israel, bring her into captivity, usurp and treat her violently until the coming of John, yet Israel would be delivered and restored by Christ. But not the "Literal nation Israel" but the spiritual nation Israel which suffered violence from the spiritual kingdom of Satan, which these nations merely "represented." So...yeah...these things are not so cut and dried as they may first appear.

I realize it is not easy for most of us to unlearn what we were taught. We need to understand that there are only two kingdoms and two nations on Earth. For example, the kingdom of Satan, and the Kingdom of Christ. The unholy nation and Holy Nation. We all live and are empowered in either one or the other.

Likewise, we all are on a learning curve. None of us should start running Pell Mell down the path of least resistance without careful consideration. The minute that I start to think that I know everything, is the minute I will fall on my knees and ask God's forgiveness, because it is then I will know that I need enlightenment more than anyone does.

 

[Earburner]

No, it does not. Not at all.

The natural man, as a beast, the carnal man living by the flesh, the wicked man is without sound judgment and doesn't understand the Spiritual.

1st Corinthians 2:13-16

• "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
• But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
• But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
• For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."

I'm sure you've heard those verses before, but have you "heard" those verses before? The Spiritual man judgeth by that Spirit, but the natural man is like a beast, because he is evil and without the image of God, he is without sound judgment. That most believe something does not make something sound. Interpretation is not by committee, it's by the sound exegesis of God's word compared diligently "with" God's word.

And no, you can't be right in this instance. God is not giving us a "literal" history lesson about Greece, Persia, and Rome, but a "spiritual" history lesson about a far more sinister spiritual rule. Christ is the Prince of Peace, agree? What kingdom does He rule? Likewise, Satan is the Prince of this world, thus what kingdom does he rule? Their rules are not from physical nations or empires, but from spiritual principalities. That's what you and many others here don't understand. Even though God has stated it in many diverse ways again and again and again. You still eschew the Spiritual nature of what God is speaking about.

Ephesians 6:12

• "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

Whether we like it or not, God is here telling us that our battle is not against the power of empires, it's not even physical, it's not political, it's not against nations, it's against a "spiritual principality, a spiritual power and spiritual wickedness." Everyone reads these things but few take it to heart.

Colossians 2:14-15

• "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
• And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it[/i]."

These Principalities and powers that Christ spoiled were not Rome, it wasn't Greece or Persia, or even America but it was spiritual "Egypt" and spiritual principalities and rulers of the darkness of this world. The Christian must take his mind off the nations of this world and think on a nation from above and just how it is being attacked. Take our eyes off this world and put them on Christ. Selah!

Satan is thee beast, ruling through men, who are as beasts. Just as Satan is thee antichrist, ruling in many antichrists, which are men. There is a principle here that many of you are missing in your misinterpretation of Scripture. Think about it. Why does God call wicked men serpents, and calls Satan the serpent? Why is Christ called the Star, and we, His servants, called stars? The point I am making is that just because you cannot recognize Satan as the beast, and natural or carnal man as a beast, doesn't mean God doesn't.

1st Corinthians 15:32

• "If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die."

Did he wrestle with a physical bear, spar with a lion, or tangle with a leopard? No, his fight was with men who were "as beasts" in that they were without moral values, judgment, knowledge or wisdom.

If I might digress for a minute. What separates man from the dumb beasts of the field is his reasoning and intelligence. Man was created in the image or likeness of God so that (unlike dumb beasts) man was instilled with a certain intellect, reason and the inherent knowledge of His creator. Beasts have no reasoning, they have no knowledge, and they are not sensible. God often contrasts man with beast and even labels man a beast himself when he acts foolishly or without reasoning, or in a ravenous or vicious way. God even goes so far as to speak of man as a beast when illustrating man as unknowledgeable or simple (stupid, if you will). So the symbolism of a beast I believe is to illustrate man under influence of Satan acting without reason or knowledge, or when lacking in wisdom and understanding, as one acting foolishly. Look at King David when he said:

Psalms 73:22

• "So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee."

Apparently, God thinks the foolish and ignorant man "IS" as a beast.

Continue to next post...

Keeping your "book publishing" simple, my answer is there is no such thing as only one singular "son of perdition". So yes, I agree that all the unsaved are the "natural man", who are  EACH a son of perdition. The same applies of a singular "The Antichrist". There are many antichrists, not just only one, as many want to believe.

 

[claninja]

It’s Alcazar’s invention, preterism, that will be the focus of the thread.

Alcazar was likely the first to systematically apply preterism "to revelation", but he was not the first to apply preterism to the olivet disourse nor daniel. Alcazar held that Revelation 1-11 was about the first century conflict between church and Jewish synagoge, and that chapters 12-19 were about the Church's conflict with Rome, where he interpreted Babylon as Rome.

• "Applying the New Jerusalem to the Catholic Church, Alcazar contended that the Apocalypse describes the twofold war of the church in the early centuries—one with the Jewish synagogue, and the other with paganism—resulting in victory over both adversaries. Revelation 1 to 11 he applied to the rejection of the Jews and the desolation of Jerusalem by the Romans. Revelation 12 to 19 Alcazar allotted to the overthrow of Roman paganism and the conversion of the empire to the church, the judgment of the great Harlot being effected by the downfall of pagan idolatry; Revelation 20 he applied to the final persecution by Antichrist, and the day of judgment; and chapters 21 and 22, referring to the New Jerusalem, he made descriptive of the glorious and endless triumphant state of the Roman church."
• "Alcazar made the church’s millennium of rest to date from the downfall of old pagan Rome—his apocalyptical Babylon—with the destruction of Roman idolatry in the spiritual fires of the Catholic religion. 13 Such, in brief, was Alcazar’s Preterism."
• (https://m.egwwritings.org/en/book/1579.3220#3226)

That being said, I don't agree with Alcaraz because I believe he interprets chapters 17-18 beyond the olivet discourse.

WITHIN in the context of revelation 17-18, Revelation doesn't actually reveal the true identity of Babylon. It keeps it extremely vague. John is not told whether Babylon is Rome, the papacy, "protestant liberalism", the USA, Jerusalem, etc, etc........Instead, John is simply told its the "great city". Therefore, I can't determine the true objective interpretation of the apocalyptic, symbolic, and hyperpolic meaning of babylon the great from revelation 17-18 alone.

So, I think an important question to ask is - What is the function of the book of Revelation? It is to "reveal" what must soon take place for the time is near. Therefore, Does the "what must soon take place" refer to the eschatology of the olivet discourse OR is it going beyond the olivet discourse to provide brand new information? In otherwords, can I use the olivet discourse to intepret Revelation OR can I not use the olivet discourse to interpret Revelation because Revelation is the addition of new information to the olivet discourse?

 

[Earburner]

No, it does not. Not at all.

The natural man, as a beast, the carnal man living by the flesh, the wicked man is without sound judgment and doesn't understand the Spiritual.

In Dan. Ch. 7 God laid out His format for understanding His use of symbols about the four main kingdoms of men that shall rule the world. We are to apply that same methodology for interpreting the symbolic subjects in Rev.
1. Mystery, Babylon
2. The 10H beast.
3. The "another beast" with 2Hs.
4. The image of the 10H beast.