Baptism for Salvation
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That's Biblical evidence? You didn't say saved, you said born again.
You can argue if you want to but you'll have to do it with Luke (he is the one who wrote the book of Acts).
Yes, he did, and he was recording the historical events that had taken place. He didn't say and Peter taught XYZ. Notice his words
Luke 1:1-4 ( KJV )
Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.
He was recording those events that took place.
We also see that had given Peter a vision just to get him to go to Cornelius' house. If Peter wouldn't go in the house it is doubtful he would have baptized him. However, after see God bestow the holy Spirit on them it was apparent that God had intended for them to be saved and thus Peter immediately baptized them.
Acts 11:12-16 ( KJV )
And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man’s house:
And he showed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
What part of Jesus was alive is unclear?
Hebrews 9:15-17 ( KJV )
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
The New Covenant was not in effect when Jesus was alive.
If you want to be precise, fine. Jesus had shed His Blood on the cross while He was still alive. So you're still wrong. The Gospels are part of the New Covenant. It is the Blood that matters. Did I mention, they were baptizing?
Matthew 26:28 (NKJV)
[sup]28 [/sup]For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
You are trying to make salvation to YOUR WAY only. Salvation is through the Blood. Anyone who denies this is a heretic.
Romans 5:9 (NKJV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
Leviticus 17:11 (NKJV)
[sup]11 [/sup]For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.'
1 John 1:7 (NKJV)
[sup]7 [/sup]But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
Did Jesus need to get his sins washed away too by getting baptized?
Luke 3:21-22 (NKJV)
[sup]21 [/sup]When all the people were baptized, it came to pass that Jesus also was baptized; and while He prayed, the heaven was opened. [sup]22 [/sup]And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, "You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased."
What part are you missing. The thief was saved under the Old Covenant, not the New. The Scripture clearly says that a testament is "NOT" in effect while the testator is alive. Jesus was alive when the was promised paradise. Therefore he was saved under the old, the Mosaic covenant. When the thief was saved Jesus had not yet told the disciples to go to all nations teaching them and baptizing them.
I'd have to disagree with this. All of the Bible is heading towards Jesus dying upon the cross for our sins. Yes, the disciples were clueless, but they should have known better...from both the prophesies and what Jesus Himself was telling them. He predicted His death three times, and they didn't understand. But there is no doubt that Jesus knew and was telling them.
[Jesus Foretells His Death a Third Time]
[31] And taking the twelve, he said to them, “See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written about the Son of Man by the prophets will be accomplished. [32] For he will be delivered over to the Gentiles and will be mocked and shamefully treated and spit upon. [33] And after flogging him, they will kill him, and on the third day he will rise.” [34] But they understood none of these things. This saying was hidden from them, and they did not grasp what was said.
(Luke 18:31-34 ESV)
And again in Luke 20:9-19 Jesus tells a parable that clearly outlines that Jesus knows what's going on and where He is headed....He clearly teaches it.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean when you say that "salvation is but part of the gospel message". Gospel means good, and the good news is that through Jesus' sacrifice and free gift of grace, we can have salvation through faith in Him. Sure Jesus teaches us other things, like loving one another, but the 'gospel message' in a nut shell, is the work of justification and salvation that comes from Christ.
Well, as you pointed out, context is important. Hermeneutical prinicpals are too. Paul continually teaches that it is by faith and not works that we are justified...which tells us that there is nothing we can do to 'add' to the grace God has gifted us. No 'good works', no rituals, nothing...just God and His wonderful gift to us, so that we have absoluletly nothing to boast in. James may seem to be contradicting Paul, but he's not. James is saying that faith that does not lead to a change in life, a change in behaviour, is not a real faith. When we recieve the Holy Spirit and are born again, a new heart is born within us, and that should lead to good works. Not because it is needed for salvation, but because we are eager to pass God's wonderful love on.James is saying that 'faith alone' is not a mere intellectual agreement without a genuine personal trust in Christ that bears fruit in one's life.
Paul, however is quite clear on the matter:
[22] the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: [23] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [24] and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, [25] whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. [26] It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
(Romans 3:22-26 ESV)
No mention of needing baptism there, or here:
[8] For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [9] not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
(Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV)
Nothing 'preludes baptisms'? Nothing comes before it? That's wrong, I'm sorry. Have you ever seen anyone get baptised before they came to believe in Jesus? No, it's always something a Christian does after being saved...which should be a clear indicator that one isn't saved by baptism, as we get saved before it!
When John the Baptist was baptising people with water, he called them to repent...so repentance preluded that baptism, and when Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to baptise His disciples, I think it's clear to say that they already believed in Him! And as we know, believing in Jesus is needed to be saved!
[For God So Loved the World]
[16] “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
(John 3:16 ESV)
I quoted those verses to show that while it may say 'water' it's not actually talking of physically being dunked in water, it's speaking of what water does...it's washes one clean. To be born again we must believe, recieve the Holy Spirit who washes us clean. Just as the following verse says:
[5] Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
(John 3:5 ESV)
The phrase born of water and the Spirit in 3:5 refers to spiritual birth, which cleanses from sin and brings spiritual transformation and renewal. Water here does not refer to the water of physical birth, nor is it likely that it refers to baptism. The background is probably Ezek. 36:25–27, where God promises, “I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean. … And I will give you a new heart. … And I will put my Spirit within you.”
Remember what John the Baptist said:
[11] “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
(Matthew 3:11 ESV)
[4] And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, “you heard from me; [5] for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
(Acts 1:4-5 ESV)
Do I think Christians should be baptised, as a sign of their repentance and new faith in Jesus? Yes, I do. But I don't believe that salvation is contitional on being dunked in a pool of water. The Bible just doesn't teach that water Baptism (and what ever it symbolises) is necessary for salvation.
Faith alone is implied. Neither does he say "Therefore we have been justified through faith (and baptism) we have peace with God". You may think we are reading too much into what is implied,even though we are brought to this conclusion by all the other scriptures, but you are as good as putting words in his mouth. The fact is that when the disciples and Paul speak of baptism in the NT they are speaking of two things...repentance, and the recieving of the Holy Spirit, and His cleansing our souls. People still do the water Baptism, but once Jesus had died, it is always after they recieve the Holy Spirit...as sign of that wonderful rebirth. Why on earth would any non Christian...anyone who doesn't love or follow Jesus, get baptised?
This is refering again to genuine faith and new life in Christ, just as James was. Many people claim to be Christians, but we can tell by their fruit that they really haven't been born again. True regeneration begets fruit of the spirit...acts that show we belong to Christ and have the Holy Spirit inside of us. But in no way does this passage say "hey, if you don't get baptised,I'll cut you off the vine".
So, you may say that the passage is talking about conditional grace, but I disagree, it adressing true verses false faith. Do we have the Holy spirit, have we really been born again, do our lives and actions reflect these things? If we truly are saved, if we really do have the Holy Spirit, then our salvation is not conditional on anything else. We may falter through life, but our wonderful God will be with us through all of it, guiding us back or along as needed.
No, Jesus death on the cross was the remittance of sin. Full stop. As sinners we need to recognise our sinfulness and our need for Jesus' actions on the cross. Once we do this and ask God to forgive and save us, it's done. Water being symbolic or not, it can not save us, only Jesus can, and only by us believing and accepting that. The bible is very clear that there is nothing we can do to help in our salvation...and that includes baptism, which is an act we do. We can boast on nothing, and that includes "I'm choosing to be baptised, and then I'll be saved". Doesn't work like that, I'm sorry.
[17] For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”(Romans 1:17 ESV)
Butch5, perhaps you can clear this up a bit. If a 100 year old man was on his death bed and wanted to be saved but he couldn't move, what would you tell him?
Just look it up. Jesus didn’t preach His death on the cross for sins. He preached the gospel of the kingdom of God. Salvation is a part of that Gospel, but only that, a part. What did Jesus say? Unless a man is born again he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The purpose of the new birth is to enter into the kingdom of God. The New Birth is a means to an end, it is “Not” the end itself. The end is the kingdom of God.
As I said there are roughly 100 mentions of the kingdom of God on the Gospels. Look and see how many mentions there are of salvation in the gospels. The kingdom of heaven is mentions 38 in Mathew alone.
Mark 1:14-15 ( KJV )
Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Mark 10:15 ( KJV )
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
Why was Jesus sent? So many say it was to go to the cross to dies for sins. As I said that was a part of it but only a part. Consider Jesus’ own words.
Luke 4:43 ( KJV )
And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.
He was sent to preach the kingdom of God.
When Jesus sent out the 12 disciples the first time what did He send them to preach?
Luke 9:1-3 ( KJV )
Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece.
The kingdom of God.
Luke 16:16 ( KJV )
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
John 3:3-5 ( KJV )
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
We see that the birth is the entrance into the kingdom of God, it is not the end all.
What is it that Jesus Himself called the good news or the gospel?
Matthew 24:14 ( KJV )
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Actually, one needs to understand the situation that Paul was dealing with when he wrote these letters and why he wrote them. Paul does not teach that there is nothing required by man to be saved. That idea was popularized by Martin Luther. You quoted Romans, in that passage as in just about every case, where Paul speaks of justification by faith verse works, he is speaking of the works of the Mosaic Law. You see there were those in Paul’s day who were known as the Judaizers. These were Jewish believers who argued that in addition to belief in Christ it was also necessary that one obey the Mosaic Law. They tried to enforce this on the Gentiles. That was the reason for the Jerusalem council in Acts 15.
Acts 15:1-2 ( KJV )
And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
If you read on you see the conclusion that the apostles came to. The point is that it is the works of the Mosaic Law that Paul is dealing with not good works, or anything a person does. If you take that position it present a contradiction within the very same letter you posted.
Romans 2:5-10 ( KJV )
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Paul says that those who continue in well doing are seeking eternal life. If there was nothing a person could do regarding salvation, all of the well doing in the world would not be seeking eternal life.
So, you see if we hold the position you’ve suggested it creates a contradiction with Paul’s own words.
James, on the hand confirms what Paul said regarding, “continue in well doing”. James is not saying what most Christians claim, that is the good works are proof of salvation. His argument is that without works faith is dead and cannot save. Therefore it cannot produce anything. He says that for faith to be alive it must have works. So, works must be present before faith can produce anything at all.
James 2:20-23 ( KJV )
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Abraham’s faith was incomplete before his works, thus it couldn’t save.
That’s because the argument is based on faith and works of the Mosaic Law. Is one justified by faith or the Mosaic Law? That is the issue, so there is no need to mention baptism it is a completely different issue.
Nobody said anything about being baptized prior to belief. You said one is baptized after being saved, yet you gave no evidence to support this. It seems you just assume one is saved when they believe. Jesus said unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. If that is the case how can one be saved before they are born of water?
Exactly what is the basis for your explanation? You can’t simply claim that water doesn’t mean water.
Paul said they were saved by the bath of regeneration “AND” the renewing of the holy Spirit. The renewing of the Spirit is the work of the holy Spirit. That leaves the other part, the bath of regeneration.
Those taught by the apostles seem to differ in their opinion.
Ignatius appeals to Rom. 6:5
"Wherefore also, ye appear to me to live not after the manner of men, but according to Jesus Christ, who died for us, in order that, by believing in His death, ye may by baptism be made partakers of His resurrection."
Ignatius appeals to Paul’s connection of water baptism with the resurrection.
Tertullian 200 AD
"[N]o one can attain salvation without baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says, ‘Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life'" (Chapter XII)
Here is Justin’s argument.
Justin Martyr
Chap. LXI.—Christian Baptism.
I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, “Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. (John 3:5) Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers’ wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: “Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from your souls; learn to do well; judge the fatherless, and plead for the widow: and come and let us reason together, saith the Lord. And though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white like wool; and though they be as crimson, I will make them white as snow. But if ye refuse and rebel, the sword shall devour you: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.” (Isa. 1:16-20) And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone. For no one can utter the name of the ineffable God; and if any one dare to say that there is a name, he raves with a hopeless madness. And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed.
With all due respect, it doesn’t matter what we think. What matters is what the Scriptures say, and they do teach that one must be baptized. Paul makes this connection clear in Romans 6.
No, it isn’t implied. That is added by modern readers. As I pointed out earlier, Paul said those who continue is well doing are seeking eternal life. So, well doing is in addition to faith.
Also as I said, Paul is contrasting faith and works of the Mosaic Law, so there is no need to speak of baptism, however, James on the other hand tells us that works are necessary for justification.
Why do you seem to think that since Jesus died people receive the Holy Spirit before their sins are remitted? The apostles didn’t preach a different gospel than Jesus. Peter said repent and be baptized and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. So, according to Peter the holy Spirit is given after baptism. This is in line in with the example we see at Jesus’ baptism. He came out of the water and received the Spirit.
Jesus was talking to His disciples. Did Peter, Mathew, and John, have true faith? Since they wrote part of the NT, I think it’s safe to say they did, yet Jesus said to them, ‘I you love me keep my commands’. He also said, ‘he who does not keep my commands does not love me’, this is the who like a branch is cast off. So, it shows that the believer can be cast off.
No, Jesus made the forgiveness of sins possible by becoming a ransom.
Actually, the Bible makes it clear that there are other things required. The question is, are we going to listen to the Scriptures or are we going to listen to Martin Luther? Paul said one must confess with the mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord, Peter said, Repent and be baptized and you will receive the holy Spirit, without which one cannot be saved. Jesus said, he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. These are just four elements.
As I said the Scriptures are clear, when we take the totality of Scripture into account and in context we can see the full picture. However, if we listen to Martin Luther who was simply pushing his own agenda and misleading those who followed him we will come to an erroneous understanding of the Scriptures.
To ask for forgiveness. It is up to God whether or not He will save a person. Even if one repents it is not guaranteed. The Scriptures tell us that God grants repentance, so it is up to Him who He saves. Do you suppose that the one who refuses to be baptized will be saved? God is the only one who know the heart. You suppose that the 100 year old man is honest, yet you cannot read his heart. What if he is not honest? it wouldn't matter whether he was baptized or not he wouldn't be saved.
What do you not understand? The New Covenant did not begin until Jesus died. Jesus was alive when He told the thief he would be with Him in paradise. Therefore the old covenant had not yet ended and the new had not begun. That happened when Jesus died.
You're mighty close to heresy.
Leviticus 17:11 (NKJV)
[sup]11 [/sup]For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.'
Revelation 1:5 (NKJV)
[sup]5 [/sup]and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
So then, you might not be forgiven?
You are changing the subject. I never said the man refused to be baptized. I said he couldn't.
Please stop changing the subject.
Evidently it is YOU who doesn't understand that we MUST have a sacrifice. If he was under the Old Covenant then he had to sacrifice an animal. Jesus was our sacrifice. So then, which was it for the thief? An animal sacrifice or Jesus? You have gotten yourself in a corner.
Ducky,
No offense, but this post was to Rach. I have found it is not profitable to discuss this with you because you just post one liners with no commentary, I said Jesus didn't preach his death for sins on the cross, and you posted two verses, one for Leviticus, Jesus didn't preach in Leviticus. The other is from Revelation, the words of apostle John. Neither of these shows what you think they show. On the other hand I posted multiple passages of Scripture showing clearly that Jesus preached the kingdom of God. You didn't address a single on of those. Then there is the issue with thief. I've explained this several times, and it seems either you just don't understand or you are deliberately denying it. The New Testament started when Jesus died. The thief was saved when Jesus was alive, therefore the thief was "NOT" saved under the New Coveenant. It's that simple, if you don't understand it then there is nothing more I can say.
I have been reading Galatians. I believe sanctification is a continual process. That there is a moment in time salvation occurs, and it is continual as God sanctifies us. I believe God chooses whom he wants, but moreso I believe we have all been called by God and are all written in the book of life. I believe at the moment of salvation we accept God's choice, once and for all, and we accept then the promises of God. One thing about the promises of God, is that no matter how many times we break our end of the deal, God is still faithful, lest he be called a liar. The Jews broke their end of the covenant continually but God was faithful to Abraham, who was declared righteous by His faith, and to whom the promise was given. When we are born again, it is not like being adopted in a sense we think about today. We are born in spirit into the family of God, as his very own children. A child of God born into his own family, cannot be not a child of God any longer as seen in the story of the Prodigal son. I believe there is no requirement to act as a child of God for the purpose of our salvation after our salvation, but we are encouraged to respond to the grace we have been given by God, and we are privileged to work cooperatively with God to benefit His kingdom. Truly, we have lost sight of God if our works do not prove our faith; it can even be questionable whether there was a moment of salvation to begin with, for it is a sign to everyone except God, that works prove the work that the Holy Spirit is doing in our lives; God needs no proof. What we have left then is our identity in Christ which is irrevocable, the benefit of which is the exhortation and building up of the body of Christ and loving one another which is our sign to non believers of Christ's work in us.
When are we actually considered children of God? I think is the question everyone is asking. I'll try to keep studying to figure out what I believe. I have assumed it is the moment of salvation, when we first choose to become the children as God originally intended. I understand God can turn rocks into children of Abraham, but is us he chose, and it is only by God's grace we each have been given a portion of faith that if turned to God we can be declared righteous in His eyes. And God's promise to Abraham of Christ Jesus came before the law was given, the law which was full of conditions.
When are we actually considered children of God? I think is the question everyone is asking. I'll try to keep studying to figure out what I believe. I have assumed it is the moment of salvation, when we first choose to become the children as God originally intended. I understand God can turn rocks into children of Abraham, but is us he chose, and it is only by God's grace we each have been given a portion of faith that if turned to God we can be declared righteous in His eyes. And God's promise to Abraham of Christ Jesus came before the law was given, the law which was full of conditions.
The thief was saved but not baptized. You can't change it no matter how you try to dance around it.
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