Baptism for Salvation

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lawrance

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I have been reading Galatians. I believe sanctification is a continual process. That there is a moment in time salvation occurs, and it is continual as God sanctifies us. I believe God chooses whom he wants, but moreso I believe we have all been called by God and are all written in the book of life. I believe at the moment of salvation we accept God's choice, once and for all, and we accept then the promises of God. One thing about the promises of God, is that no matter how many times we break our end of the deal, God is still faithful, lest he be called a liar. The Jews broke their end of the covenant continually but God was faithful to Abraham, who was declared righteous by His faith, and to whom the promise was given. When we are born again, it is not like being adopted in a sense we think about today. We are born in spirit into the family of God, as his very own children. A child of God born into his own family, cannot be not a child of God any longer as seen in the story of the Prodigal son. I believe there is no requirement to act as a child of God for the purpose of our salvation after our salvation, but we are encouraged to respond to the grace we have been given by God, and we are privileged to work cooperatively with God to benefit His kingdom. Truly, we have lost sight of God if our works do not prove our faith; it can even be questionable whether there was a moment of salvation to begin with, for it is a sign to everyone except God, that works prove the work that the Holy Spirit is doing in our lives; God needs no proof. What we have left then is our identity in Christ which is irrevocable, the benefit of which is the exhortation and building up of the body of Christ and loving one another which is our sign to non believers of Christ's work in us.

When are we actually considered children of God? I think is the question everyone is asking. I'll try to keep studying to figure out what I believe. I have assumed it is the moment of salvation, when we first choose to become the children as God originally intended. I understand God can turn rocks into children of Abraham, but is us he chose, and it is only by God's grace we each have been given a portion of faith that if turned to God we can be declared righteous in His eyes. And God's promise to Abraham of Christ Jesus came before the law was given, the law which was full of conditions.


The Prodigal son lost something did he not.
 

martinlawrencescott

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The Prodigal son lost something did he not.

Ya, he lost a lot of time I guess. He lost perspective, and wasted a lot of his father's resources on his own foolishness. I believe God is a God who can restore every blessing and break every curse over our lives, like the father restored his son.

Our salvation is more relatable to the Abrahamic covenant than it is to the Mosaic covenant. Our salvation is left unbroken after the moment the covenant is made between us and God, just like the promise God made to Abraham. The blessings and rest which we obtain in this life are what are conditional, and our commendation for the work we do is conditional on our works as we let the Holy Spirit control us in this life, which is relatable to the Israelites gain of the promised land which they never received the fullest of due to their disobedience.
 

Rach1370

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Just look it up. Jesus didn’t preach His death on the cross for sins. He preached the gospel of the kingdom of God. Salvation is a part of that Gospel, but only that, a part. What did Jesus say? Unless a man is born again he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The purpose of the new birth is to enter into the kingdom of God. The New Birth is a means to an end, it is “Not” the end itself. The end is the kingdom of God.
As I said there are roughly 100 mentions of the kingdom of God on the Gospels. Look and see how many mentions there are of salvation in the gospels. The kingdom of heaven is mentions 38 in Mathew alone.

Mark 1:14-15 ( KJV )
Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Mark 10:15 ( KJV )
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
Why was Jesus sent? So many say it was to go to the cross to dies for sins. As I said that was a part of it but only a part. Consider Jesus’ own words.

Luke 4:43 ( KJV )
And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.

He was sent to preach the kingdom of God.

When Jesus sent out the 12 disciples the first time what did He send them to preach?

Luke 9:1-3 ( KJV )
Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick. And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats apiece.

The kingdom of God.

Luke 16:16 ( KJV )
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

John 3:3-5 ( KJV )
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
We see that the birth is the entrance into the kingdom of God, it is not the end all.

What is it that Jesus Himself called the good news or the gospel?

Matthew 24:14 ( KJV )
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

What exactly is the kingdom of God? Who is going there? How are we getting there?? Christians, that's who. People who are redeemed by the grace of Jesus, by His sacrifice. You can claim that the KoG is a seperate thing, but salvation leads to the Kingdom of God, be it the future one we long to go to, or just the presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives now. The ONLY way to get to the Kingdom of God, to experiance it, is to recieve salvation...through Christ's death on the cross.


Actually, one needs to understand the situation that Paul was dealing with when he wrote these letters and why he wrote them. Paul does not teach that there is nothing required by man to be saved. That idea was popularized by Martin Luther. You quoted Romans, in that passage as in just about every case, where Paul speaks of justification by faith verse works, he is speaking of the works of the Mosaic Law. You see there were those in Paul’s day who were known as the Judaizers. These were Jewish believers who argued that in addition to belief in Christ it was also necessary that one obey the Mosaic Law. They tried to enforce this on the Gentiles. That was the reason for the Jerusalem council in Acts 15.

Acts 15:1-2 ( KJV )
And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
If you read on you see the conclusion that the apostles came to. The point is that it is the works of the Mosaic Law that Paul is dealing with not good works, or anything a person does. If you take that position it present a contradiction within the very same letter you posted.

Romans 2:5-10 ( KJV )
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Paul says that those who continue in well doing are seeking eternal life. If there was nothing a person could do regarding salvation, all of the well doing in the world would not be seeking eternal life.
So, you see if we hold the position you’ve suggested it creates a contradiction with Paul’s own words.
James, on the hand confirms what Paul said regarding, “continue in well doing”. James is not saying what most Christians claim, that is the good works are proof of salvation. His argument is that without works faith is dead and cannot save. Therefore it cannot produce anything. He says that for faith to be alive it must have works. So, works must be present before faith can produce anything at all.

James 2:20-23 ( KJV )
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Abraham’s faith was incomplete before his works, thus it couldn’t save.

I'm familiar with Paul's crusade against the 'Judaizers'...but I think you neglect the fact that this message is pertinent to anyone who is hung up on 'rules and regulations'. It's the same principle...people say 'to be saved you must do x', while the actual fact is that to be saved, its completely what Jesus does for us.

[8] For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [9] not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
(Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV)


By saying that salvation comes through ANYTHING other than grace from God, a gift, from beginning to end; is to in effect say that we must do something to accomplish it. Which is works. Besides, don't you think if being baptised was essential to salvation that in passages like the one above, they might just mention it? If it was that important, I'm sure all the 'salvation' passages would have it, but they don't. John 3:16...no baptism, John 11:25...no baptism, Romans 3:20,25,28...no baptism, Titus 3:5...no baptism. They all speak of believing in Christ, believing that Jesus had died for our sins, in our place, but they do not put any condition upon it other than belief and love in Him.

And yes, while Paul does speak often against relying solely on Mosaic Law, let's not forget who his primary audience is...gentiles. The greeks and the Romans who Paul was sent to preach to would not have had deep roots within Jewish law. They were pagans, and while Mosaic rules were probably not a problem for them, they, just as we do, still had things they were accustomed to...rules, rituals. Paul was teaching them to let go of everything but Christ.

As far as Rom 2:5-10 being (according to to my view) a contradiction of his own words, well...no it's not. A christian...that is, one who is saved, still has the choice to quench or greive the Holy Spirit. They can sit in their cosy church pew and do nothing to further the Kingdom. Are the still saved? yes, but their works and fruit are not rich. This passage talks of the rewards we will recieve for being diligent worker for the Kingdom. It does not refer to works that will get us into the kingdom. And it also talks of those who are not saved, and they indeed will be judged by two things: they do not have Christs blood covering them, and without that they will have to answer for the deeds, the works they do. The Bible does speak of both rewards for the righteous, and punishment for the wicked. Both are dealt with in terms of who deserves more, and who deserves less. For the wicked it tells that those whos sins are few, their stripes will be few. And for the righteous we are told that whoever does well will be given more.


That’s because the argument is based on faith and works of the Mosaic Law. Is one justified by faith or the Mosaic Law? That is the issue, so there is no need to mention baptism it is a completely different issue.

Uhmmm. The passage you are talking about here is in Ephesians. As in, it was to the Ephesian Church. The Ephesian church was located in Asia, or todays Turkey. It was a pagan city and was rife with the occult and black magic (Acts 19:19). These people were probably Greek people who were also under Roman rule. They would have know Greek culture and proabably Roman culture as well, but proabably didn't have a clue or care less about Mosaic Law. Why on earth would you assume (and assumption it is, because it doesn't say any different) that this passage is addressing a peoples who were under Mosaic Law??

Nobody said anything about being baptized prior to belief. You said one is baptized after being saved, yet you gave no evidence to support this. It seems you just assume one is saved when they believe. Jesus said unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. If that is the case how can one be saved before they are born of water?

If I assume, you do as well. Although I don't think repeating the Bible is making an assumption:

[For God So Loved the World]
[16] “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
(John 3:16 ESV)


You hang an aweful lot on that one passage (John 3:5), when 'water' may or may not mean actual water baptism. It is much more likely that He is speaking of being washed clean...as that's what water does. The Bible is full of imagery like this...or perhaps we should imagine the Jesus is actually a lamb?
You say that there is no proof that baptism, when it occurs, comes after a person being saved? Well, let me show you differently. Firstly, I'd like to show you that the 'true baptism' of salvation is that of the Holy Spirit.

[11] “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
(Matthew 3:11 ESV)

[3] And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John's baptism.” [4] And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” [5] On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. [6] And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.
(Acts 19:3-6 ESV)


No where here does Paul say..."now quick, we must away to the river!"
Now, baptism after believing:

[The Holy Spirit Falls on the Gentiles]
[44] While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. [45] And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. [46] For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, [47] “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” [48] And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.
(Acts 10:44-48 ESV)


Clearly the baptism came after the Holy Spirit fell on them. You may doubt that 'just believing' doesn't get you saved, but you must allow that anyone who has the Holy Spirit has salvation.

[35] Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus. [36] And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?”
(Acts 8:35-36 ESV)

The Etheopian heard, believed, and then was baptised.

[17] So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” [18] And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized;
(Acts 9:17-18 ESV)

Paul believes, recieves the Holy Spirit, and then gets baptised. There are many more...as well as many scriptures which say people believed and were saved...no mention of Baptism.

With all due respect, it doesn’t matter what we think. What matters is what the Scriptures say, and they do teach that one must be baptized. Paul makes this connection clear in Romans 6.

I agree that we must stick to what the scriptures say. But Romans 6 is not saying that one must be baptised to be saved. It is symbolic. Paul is not arguing that baptism magically destroys the power of sin. Baptism is an outward, physical symbol of the inward, spiritual conversion of Christians. By being sumbmerged it symbolizes that we are 'with' Christ in His death, and by coming up out of the water it symbolizes that we will 'rise' with Him. These are wonderful symbols, and as i've said, I do think its good for a Christian to be baptised, but they are just symbols. To say that being baptised saves us would be the same as saying the cross we wear to symbolize Christs sacrifice will save us. Symbols have meaning, they don't have power.

I won't get into the rest of your post at the moment, as this one is already way too long!!
 

Job one

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Excuse me, but we should remember what Jesus really said to the thief on the cross.

"This day shalt thou be with me in Paradise"

I think we should be careful to examine what was said..

Is paradise a place where the dead will go while awaiting judgement and subsequent resurrection?

Is there anything that clearly identifies without question that Paradise and Heaven are one and the same?

The Garden of Eden may have also been a paradise, but it was certainly not heaven.

Ponder these things deeply......
 

martinlawrencescott

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Excuse me, but we should remember what Jesus really said to the thief on the cross.

"This day shalt thou be with me in Paradise"

I think we should be careful to examine what was said..

Is paradise a place where the dead will go while awaiting judgement and subsequent resurrection?

Is there anything that clearly identifies without question that Paradise and Heaven are one and the same?

The Garden of Eden may have also been a paradise, but it was certainly not heaven.

Ponder these things deeply......

I haven't studied that much. One view I heard is that the top level of hell was Abraham's bosom, where Christ went to preach to the to the OT followers to set them free. That level of hell also known as "paradise". The man next to Jesus could have gone there with the other OT folk, waiting to hear the gospel preached. Maybe they had water baptisms there; I don't know.
 

Butch5

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What exactly is the kingdom of God? Who is going there? How are we getting there?? Christians, that's who. People who are redeemed by the grace of Jesus, by His sacrifice. You can claim that the KoG is a seperate thing, but salvation leads to the Kingdom of God, be it the future one we long to go to, or just the presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives now. The ONLY way to get to the Kingdom of God, to experiance it, is to recieve salvation...through Christ's death on the cross.
The kingdom of God is everything that Jesus preached. I didn’t say the kingdom of God was separate from salvation, I said, salvation is just a part of the gospel of the kingdom of God. As I said, the new birth is a means to an end. The end is the kingdom of God.


I'm familiar with Paul's crusade against the 'Judaizers'...but I think you neglect the fact that this message is pertinent to anyone who is hung up on 'rules and regulations'. It's the same principle...people say 'to be saved you must do x', while the actual fact is that to be saved, its completely what Jesus does for us.
No, it doesn’t pertain to anyone who abides by rules and regulations. You are simply taking the passage our of context. Paul is addressing a specific issue, the Mosaic Law. You are applying the passages way more broadly than Paul did, therefore it’s out of context. Especially when Paul himself said that going good deeds is seeking eternal life. Your understanding of Ephesians 2:8 contradicts Paul’s words in Romans 2:7-10. Since the Scriptures don’t contradict themselves, your understanding of Ephesians 2:8 must be incorrect.

[8] For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [9] not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
(Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV)
The problem is that you didn’t post the entire passage. As I said before Paul is dealing with the works of the Mosaic Law.

Ephesians 2:8-17 ( KJV )
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
This shows that Paul is speaking of the Mosaic Law. That is why proof texting is not a good method of discovering the truth of Scripture.



By saying that salvation comes through ANYTHING other than grace from God, a gift, from beginning to end; is to in effect say that we must do something to accomplish it. Which is works.
Not to accomplish it, but to maintain it. The words come from Jesus Himself.

John 14:21-24 ( KJV )
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.

Luke 13:23-27 ( KJV )
Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
Strive to enter in, that sure does indicate that something must be done.

Revelation 3:4 ( KJV )
Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
They are worthy, the ones who weren’t worthy defiled themselves. So, that means those who obeyed His commands were worthy.
Read the opening words of Jesus to each of the Seven churches in Rev. 2-3. He opens to each address with, I know your deeds.

Revelation 20:11-12 ( KJV )
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
What about Paul?

Romans 2:5-10 ( KJV )
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
There are plenty more .

Besides, don't you think if being baptised was essential to salvation that in passages like the one above, they might just mention it?
Not at all, as I said the issue was between faith and the Mosaic Law. No one was questioning baptism, they questioning salvation by faith “without” keeping the Mosaic Law.

If it was that important, I'm sure all the 'salvation' passages would have it, but they don't. John 3:16...no baptism, John 11:25...no baptism, Romans 3:20,25,28...no baptism, Titus 3:5...no baptism. They all speak of believing in Christ, believing that Jesus had died for our sins, in our place, but they do not put any condition upon it other than belief and love in Him.
Not at all, as I said baptism wasn’t the issue so there would be no need to mention it. The writers were not writing a how to manual. They were either recording the events of Jesus life or teaching the churches on specific issues.
Suppose you took a dismantled a car and while putting it back together, you and your friend disagree on how to rebuild the carburetor. You give your method and your friend gives his. As you debate back and forth do you recount the entire process of rebuilding the car each time you speak or do you simply speak of the carburetor? Well, surely you are not going to recount every aspect of rebuilding the car every time you express yourself to your friend. Well, likewise, If Paul is arguing with the Judaizers that keeping the Law is not necessary he’s not going to say, and ‘you need to be baptized’, every time he expresses himself. Nobody talks like that, so why would anyone expect the NT writers to write like that?
No, they knew that baptism was necessary and they didn’t argue like Christians today do. They took Jesus words, “He who believes and is baptized shall be save”.
You see the proper method of understanding the Scriptures is to build one piece upon another. We see that Jesus said we need to baptized, therefore we say, OK, a Christian must be baptized, then when we see John 3:16, whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life’, we know that that means we must believe and we must be baptized. Likewise when we see Paul’s word , in Romans 10 we know that we must also confess Jesus Christ as Lord. That is how one builds doctrine.
We don’t go through the Scriptures saying well, it doesn’t say this or it doesn’t say that, That doesn’t lead to truth.


And yes, while Paul does speak often against relying solely on Mosaic Law, let's not forget who his primary audience is...gentiles. The greeks and the Romans who Paul was sent to preach to would not have had deep roots within Jewish law. They were pagans, and while Mosaic rules were probably not a problem for them, they, just as we do, still had things they were accustomed to...rules, rituals. Paul was teaching them to let go of everything but Christ.
Again, you’re going beyond Paul. Paul went to both Jew and Gentile. However, as I said, it was the Judaizers going behind Paul to the Gentile converts telling them they needed to be circumcised in addition to faith in Christ. That is why he addresses works so much.

Acts 15:1 ( KJV )
And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
Galatians 3:1-3 ( KJV )
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Here is something to think about. Notice you only have Paul teaching about works. Many Jewish believers, even after being saved , continued to keep the Law. You don’t see any of the apostles preaching to the Jews that keeping the law is sin, nowhere. Paul himself went to the festivals.

As far as Rom 2:5-10 being (according to to my view) a contradiction of his own words, well...no it's not. A christian...that is, one who is saved, still has the choice to quench or greive the Holy Spirit. They can sit in their cosy church pew and do nothing to further the Kingdom. Are the still saved? yes, but their works and fruit are not rich. This passage talks of the rewards we will recieve for being diligent worker for the Kingdom. It does not refer to works that will get us into the kingdom. And it also talks of those who are not saved, and they indeed will be judged by two things: they do not have Christs blood covering them, and without that they will have to answer for the deeds, the works they do. The Bible does speak of both rewards for the righteous, and punishment for the wicked. Both are dealt with in terms of who deserves more, and who deserves less. For the wicked it tells that those whos sins are few, their stripes will be few. And for the righteous we are told that whoever does well will be given more.
Look at the passage in context. The reward for doing good is eternal life. How can you say those deeds don’t pertain to salvation? The ones who don’t do good only have indignation and wrath to look forward to.


Uhmmm. The passage you are talking about here is in Ephesians. As in, it was to the Ephesian Church. The Ephesian church was located in Asia, or todays Turkey. It was a pagan city and was rife with the occult and black magic (Acts 19:19). These people were probably Greek people who were also under Roman rule. They would have know Greek culture and proabably Roman culture as well, but proabably didn't have a clue or care less about Mosaic Law. Why on earth would you assume (and assumption it is, because it doesn't say any different) that this passage is addressing a peoples who were under Mosaic Law??
It’s not an assumption, it’s right there in the text. It’s likely that the leadership at this church was Jewish.

Acts 19:1-8 ( KJV )
And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
And all the men were about twelve.
And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.

When Paul went into Ephesus he spent 3 month in the synagogue. His initial converts would have been Jews. It would be a lot easier to establish a leadership with Jew since they were already well versed in the OT Scriptures.
The text of 2:8 and continuing shows us that Paul was speaking of the Mosaic Law

Ephesians 2:7-18 ( KJV )
That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
The Law of commandments is the Mosaic Law.

There is further support. Notice Paul tells the Gentiles that they have been brought into the covenants of promise.

Ephesians 2:11-13 ( KJV )
Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

He refers to the Gentiles as you who were afar off. Then He says this in contrast.

Ephesians 2:17-19 ( KJV )
And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

He says that the Gentiles should be fellow citizens with the saints. The saints here is a reference to the Jews as they are contrasted with the gentiles. He opened his letter this way.

Ephesians 1:1 ( KJV )
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
So, not only were there Jews in this church it was likely that the leadership was Jewish.

If I assume, you do as well. Although I don't think repeating the Bible is making an assumption:

[For God So Loved the World]
[16] “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
(John 3:16 ESV)

You hang an aweful lot on that one passage (John 3:5), when 'water' may or may not mean actual water baptism. It is much more likely that He is speaking of being washed clean...as that's what water does. The Bible is full of imagery like this...or perhaps we should imagine the Jesus is actually a lamb?
You say that there is no proof that baptism, when it occurs, comes after a person being saved? Well, let me show you differently.
That’s because the evidence from Scripture supports it as does the evidence form the early church. I could post a multitude of quotes from the early church showing how they understood water baptism. They considered it the point were one is regenerated.

Firstly, I'd like to show you that the 'true baptism' of salvation is that of the Holy Spirit.

[11] “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
(Matthew 3:11 ESV)

Are you sure? If you look at Scripture you will see that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a manifestation of the Spirit’s power. This is different than the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. However, that is another issue.

[3] And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John's baptism.” [4] And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” [5] On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. [6] And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.
(Acts 19:3-6 ESV)


No where here does Paul say..."now quick, we must away to the river!"
Nowhere? Doesn’t it say it right there in the passage? They were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Notice it was “After” they were baptized that Paul put his hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.

Now, baptism after believing:
[The Holy Spirit Falls on the Gentiles]
[44] While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. [45] And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. [46] For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, [47] “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” [48] And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.
(Acts 10:44-48 ESV)

Clearly the baptism came after the Holy Spirit fell on them. You may doubt that 'just believing' doesn't get you saved, but you must allow that anyone who has the Holy Spirit has salvation.
I didn’t say baptism came before belief. This is the only occurrence recorded in Scripture of this and we know from the context, that God specifically did that to show Peter that Gentiles were to be saved. God gave Peter a vision just to get him to go there. We know from Luke’s words that he is recording a historical event, he is not giving Christian teaching. Peter and Paul raised the dead, do we say that all Christians can raise the dead, no, it is something that was recorded in the Bible.

[35] Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus. [36] And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?”
(Acts 8:35-36 ESV)

The Ethiopian heard, believed, and then was baptized.

[17] So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” [18] And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized;
(Acts 9:17-18 ESV)

Paul believes, recieves the Holy Spirit, and then gets baptised. There are many more...as well as many scriptures which say people believed and were saved...no mention of Baptism.
Why do you keep going to the belief issue? I never said baptism came before belief.
Let me ask you a question, every time you tell someone that you are saved, do you say, I am saved, I believed, I was baptized, I confessed Christ, I am obedient to His commands? I doubt you do. I suspect you simply say I am saved. If you don’t speak that way why do you expect the NT writers to write that way? No, you expect that those you speak to know what it means when you say I am saved. Well, likewise, the NT writers are writing to believers, they assume they know what being saved means. Would go into you church and explain the entire process of salvation to those who are saved? Probably not, so why world you expect the NT writers to?


I agree that we must stick to what the scriptures say. But Romans 6 is not saying that one must be baptized to be saved. It is symbolic. Paul is not arguing that baptism magically destroys the power of sin. Baptism is an outward, physical symbol of the inward, spiritual conversion of Christians. By being submerged it symbolizes that we are 'with' Christ in His death, and by coming up out of the water it symbolizes that we will 'rise' with Him. These are wonderful symbols, and as I’ve said, I do think its good for a Christian to be baptized, but they are just symbols. To say that being baptized saves us would be the same as saying the cross we wear to symbolize Christ’s sacrifice will save us. Symbols have meaning, they don't have power.

I won't get into the rest of your post at the moment, as this one is already way too long!!
As I said, I agree the water does not save. However, as I said before, It is what God does when we go into the water. Think of it like this, if we go into the water God cleanses us, if we don’t go into the water God doesn’t’ cleanse us.
Paul makes the connection between water baptism and the resurrection in Romans 6.

Romans 6:4-5 ( KJV )
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

The Greek word translated “Likeness” means an image or representation. An image or a representation is visible, it can be seen. So this baptism that Paul is speaking of here is a visible baptism. The only baptism that is visible is water baptism. He says if we have partaken in that baptism we shall be of the resurrection. That directly ties water baptism to the resurrection.
Thayer’s Greek Definitions
G3667 ὁμοίωμα homoiōma Thayer Definition: 1) that which has been made after the likeness of something 1a) a figure, image, likeness, representation 1b) likeness, i.e. resemblance, such as amounts almost to equality or identity
 

Butch5

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I have been reading Galatians. I believe sanctification is a continual process. That there is a moment in time salvation occurs, and it is continual as God sanctifies us. I believe God chooses whom he wants, but moreso I believe we have all been called by God and are all written in the book of life. I believe at the moment of salvation we accept God's choice, once and for all, and we accept then the promises of God. One thing about the promises of God, is that no matter how many times we break our end of the deal, God is still faithful, lest he be called a liar. The Jews broke their end of the covenant continually but God was faithful to Abraham, who was declared righteous by His faith, and to whom the promise was given. When we are born again, it is not like being adopted in a sense we think about today. We are born in spirit into the family of God, as his very own children. A child of God born into his own family, cannot be not a child of God any longer as seen in the story of the Prodigal son. I believe there is no requirement to act as a child of God for the purpose of our salvation after our salvation, but we are encouraged to respond to the grace we have been given by God, and we are privileged to work cooperatively with God to benefit His kingdom. Truly, we have lost sight of God if our works do not prove our faith; it can even be questionable whether there was a moment of salvation to begin with, for it is a sign to everyone except God, that works prove the work that the Holy Spirit is doing in our lives; God needs no proof. What we have left then is our identity in Christ which is irrevocable, the benefit of which is the exhortation and building up of the body of Christ and loving one another which is our sign to non believers of Christ's work in us.

When are we actually considered children of God? I think is the question everyone is asking. I'll try to keep studying to figure out what I believe. I have assumed it is the moment of salvation, when we first choose to become the children as God originally intended. I understand God can turn rocks into children of Abraham, but is us he chose, and it is only by God's grace we each have been given a portion of faith that if turned to God we can be declared righteous in His eyes. And God's promise to Abraham of Christ Jesus came before the law was given, the law which was full of conditions.

When are we a child of God? Paul answwers that question for us.

Galatians 3:25-27 ( KJV )
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Not only does ths passage show when one becomes a child of God, it also shows that Baptism is a part of Faith. Paul says they are all children of God through faith and then says a many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
 

martinlawrencescott

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Baptized in Christ makes me think of the foot washing Jesus gave the disciples. Could salvation be the washing he is talking about. Isn't baptism the sign of this washing? He said the body only needs to be washed once. It is the feet that need to be washed continually. Our feet are what are always leading us in the wrong directions and getting dirty. By the word of God we maintain direction for He is a lamp unto our feet. There is a difference between salvation and fellowship in Christ. In the OT there was described both salvation and fellowship with God. Fellowship was described as a circle with a line going in and out of the circle. Salvation was described as a dot in the center of a circle, which it cannot escape. Romans 7 seems to explain that now "it is no longer I who do it but sin that dwelleth in me." Salvation should lead us to the works that lead us to a favorable commendation. Thankfully I am no longer identified by sin, even though I still sometimes sin.
 

Butch5

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Baptized in Christ makes me think of the foot washing Jesus gave the disciples. Could salvation be the washing he is talking about. Isn't baptism the sign of this washing? He said the body only needs to be washed once. It is the feet that need to be washed continually. Our feet are what are always leading us in the wrong directions and getting dirty. By the word of God we maintain direction for He is a lamp unto our feet. There is a difference between salvation and fellowship in Christ. In the OT there was described both salvation and fellowship with God. Fellowship was described as a circle with a line going in and out of the circle. Salvation was described as a dot in the center of a circle, which it cannot escape. Romans 7 seems to explain that now "it is no longer I who do it but sin that dwelleth in me." Salvation should lead us to the works that lead us to a favorable commendation. Thankfully I am no longer identified by sin, even though I still sometimes sin.

Actually, I think the foot washing that Jesus spoke of is what takes place after baptism. When one is baptized their former sins are remitted, however, they will still have future sins. John says 'if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins'. I believe this is the foot washing. Jesus told the disciples they were clean because of the words he had spoken to them, but after that they needed to have their feet washed. Compare that with baptism they are Clean (former sins cleansed) but they must confess future sins (washing feet after being cleansed.).

I'm not familiar with the circle example you gave.
 

martinlawrencescott

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Actually, I think the foot washing that Jesus spoke of is what takes place after baptism. When one is baptized their former sins are remitted, however, they will still have future sins. John says 'if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins'. I believe this is the foot washing. Jesus told the disciples they were clean because of the words he had spoken to them, but after that they needed to have their feet washed. Compare that with baptism they are Clean (former sins cleansed) but they must confess future sins (washing feet after being cleansed.).

I'm not familiar with the circle example you gave.

I haven't studied it in depth, it was an old teaching, I'll see if I can pull up any material on it.
 

Templar81

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A couple of days ago I was speakign to a woman who baptized herself. Why she did it I just don't udnerstand, sicne she had already been done as a child.

Has anyone heard of Thecla. She was a Roman nobleman's daughter who couldn't get Peter to Baptise her so she did it herself in a great vat of water and recieved the holy spirit.
 

Butch5

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A couple of days ago I was speakign to a woman who baptized herself. Why she did it I just don't udnerstand, sicne she had already been done as a child.

Has anyone heard of Thecla. She was a Roman nobleman's daughter who couldn't get Peter to Baptise her so she did it herself in a great vat of water and recieved the holy spirit.

I'm not familiar with that story. Do you know who told it? Who the writer was?
 

Templar81

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You can find it on youtube. It was covered in a history channel documentary called Banned from the Bible.. The church ddin't like it because it empowered women to take charge adn be assertive, which is also why Lillith never made it in either.
 

Templar81

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It coems from the acts of Paul. It is not scriptural but it is an interesting sidea, that a a personc an baptise themself. The lady that I spoke to this week said that she had been adopted, so her adoptive parents did not know if she had been baptised, so they got her baptised by the Methodist church but since then she has baptised herself. I don't know why she did it but I will ask her more aobu it.

Confiteor in unum baptisma in remissionem pecatorem. I confess; one baptism for the remission of sins.
THis means one is enough, you don't need to have any more, even if you were baptised as an infant, afteral confirmation deals with that.

Did you know that there is awhole other religion based on baptism. They believe that John the Baptist is their supreme prophet and that the Messiah ahs not coem yet. They believe in the power of baptism so much that they get baptised at elast ocne a week.

Question
Does baptize actually mean immerse. If so why are so many people baptised by pouring or sprinkling? I have seen the font I was baptised in and I know that Ino baby could have fit in it, so I recieved either pouring or sprinking (my parents can't remember and neither can I). I ocne met a fanatical baptist minsiter who told me that sicne I had not been baptised by full immersion, then I was never baptised at al, and that because ai had been baptised as an infant, it didn't count anyway. I countered him by quoting, "suffer the little children to come unto me" he then told me that it didn't matter anyway. I then told him that baptists had huge double standards because they don't believe that the bread and wine become Christ's actual body and blood even though Jesus explicitly said so. He then shut up and went all red, I had won the argument. I told him that I had affirmed my baptismal vowes, which had been taken on my behalf, when I was confirmed and that I had recieved the holy spirit witht he laying on of hands. When I was confirmed I felt an amazing feeling fo warmth and inner peace, and it felt like time stood still for a moment. It wa surreal in a way but I knew that something very important had happenned. I had recieved the holy spirit.
 

Duckybill

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Butch5, since you insist that we must be baptized for salvation, tell us how you were baptized. Father, Son and Holy Spirit? In Jesus' Name? Or ? Obviously you believe that we must do it 'right' to be saved?
 

Rach1370

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I won't get into the rest of your post at the moment, as this one is already way too long!!
As I said, I agree the water does not save. However, as I said before, It is what God does when we go into the water. Think of it like this, if we go into the water God cleanses us, if we don’t go into the water God doesn’t’ cleanse us.
Paul makes the connection between water baptism and the resurrection in Romans 6.

Butch, I'm not going to reply to your whole post...it's starting to get really long.

But I will say this. You are taking a symbol and placing power in it...saving power. You may as well be saying that the taking of communion in rememberance of Jesus also has saving power...that it is necessary to do for salvation.
You say that we mustn't give credance to the Mosaic Laws, but aren't you in fact swaping one set of rules, rituals and symbols for another? You are in fact implying that we now need to be under Baptism as well as Christ to be saved.

We can argue about the context of Bible verses for days, examining what was supposed to come first, what was implied and to whom it was written, and still not reach agreement....because lets face it, not all the verses say the exact same thing. But the one thing the Bible does say emphatically and repeatedly, is that the ONLY way to salvation is through Jesus. Nothing more, nothing less. My friend, by saying that the symbol of batism is needed and required for salvation, you are trying to add to the fullness of what Christ did on the cross. Once and for all He died for us...we need do nothing more to recieve the gift of grace from Him.
 

jiggyfly

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Excuse me, but we should remember what Jesus really said to the thief on the cross.

"This day shalt thou be with me in Paradise"

I think we should be careful to examine what was said..

Is paradise a place where the dead will go while awaiting judgement and subsequent resurrection?

Is there anything that clearly identifies without question that Paradise and Heaven are one and the same?

The Garden of Eden may have also been a paradise, but it was certainly not heaven.

Ponder these things deeply......

Very good point, this scripture indicates that the thief would be with Jesus, so wherever Jesus went so did the thief. Now where did Jesus go right after He died?
smile.gif
 

Butch5

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Butch, I'm not going to reply to your whole post...it's starting to get really long.

But I will say this. You are taking a symbol and placing power in it...saving power. You may as well be saying that the taking of communion in rememberance of Jesus also has saving power...that it is necessary to do for salvation.
You say that we mustn't give credance to the Mosaic Laws, but aren't you in fact swaping one set of rules, rituals and symbols for another? You are in fact implying that we now need to be under Baptism as well as Christ to be saved.

No, I'm not. One reason I restricted my conversation to you is so that there would not be a bunch of posts where my comments may be misunderstood. What I have stated regarding baptism is this. I think we agree that the water does not save anyone, there is nothing speacial about it. I think we also agree that it is God that saves. This is what I have put forth. It is God that saves, the question becomes when, or at what point? Jesus said, unless a man is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven. Baptism is the point where God has promised to remit sins, John baptized for the remission of sins and Jesus had his disciples do likewise. Peter said, it is not the washing of the filth of the flesh but an appeal to God from a good conscience. So, in effect what this means is that by going into the waters of baptsim we are showing God that we are coming before Him and hmbley askng him to forgive the sins we had committed in our lives. To cleanse us and give us a clean slate. Now, it is not the water that is doing anything, but it is our going into the water the shows God that we are serious. This is the method that God has ordained for the remission of sins, we have no authority to change that. Whether we like it or not we cannot change it.

As I said before God can save anyone He chooses to save, however, you won't find a promise of salvation in the Scriptures that excludes water baptism. You will find passages that don't mention water baptism, but you won't find any that exclude it. Just beccause a passage doesn't meniton water baptism does not mean that it has been excluded. That is not logical reasoning.

We can argue about the context of Bible verses for days, examining what was supposed to come first, what was implied and to whom it was written, and still not reach agreement....because lets face it, not all the verses say the exact same thing. But the one thing the Bible does say emphatically and repeatedly, is that the ONLY way to salvation is through Jesus. Nothing more, nothing less. My friend, by saying that the symbol of batism is needed and required for salvation, you are trying to add to the fullness of what Christ did on the cross. Once and for all He died for us...we need do nothing more to recieve the gift of grace from Him.

Context is of the utmost importance and there is only one context, that is the reason we need to look at the entirety of Scipture and not just a passage or two. There are several issues here to address. You say Jesus is way, however, we don't get to define what that means, If Jesus is the way then what Jesus said should be the way. Jesus said, he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. That should end the issue reight there, however, people quickly go all over the Bible trying to find verse of Scripture that speak of salvation but don't mention baptism. So that begs the question, what happened to Jesus is the way?

You spoke of adding to the fulness of what Jesus did on the cross. The cross was not the totality of Jesus work. I've already shown that Jesus Himself said that He was sent to preach the kingdom of God. He didn't preach that He came to die on the cross. That was a part of why He came but it was not the only reaason and maye not even the main reason, as I said, according to Jesus, He came to preach the kiingdom of God. In order to Christians follow Him, He had to teach us how to live, that was another reason He came. Then there was the resurrection, It would be great to die knowing that God had forgiven our sins, but without the resurrection it would be just that, we would die eternally, knowing that God had forgiven us. However, because of the resurrection we know that death is only temporary. So, there's a whole lot more to it than just what happened on the cross.

You say that we mustn't give credance to the Mosaic Laws, but aren't you in fact swaping one set of rules, rituals and symbols for another? You are in fact implying that we now need to be under Baptism as well as Christ to be saved.

You made this quote that I also wanted to address. It is not I who am swapping one set for another it is God. It was Martin Luther who proposed this idea that Christians do nothing except believe, it was an over-reaction to the policies of the Catholic Church. It was Martine Luther who proposed "Faith Alone". This idea that Christians have no laws to follow is a product of the Reformation, not a product of the Scriptures or the Apostles. I said that we are not to abide by the Mosaic Law, however, the Scriptures are clear that Christians have laws. For instance, God said through the prophet Isaiah,

Isaiah 42:1-9 ( KJV )
Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.
It’s clear this passage is speaking of Christ. God says, behold old things are come to pass. When Christ came old things were to pass. That included the Mosaic Law. Jesus said that He had come to fulfill the Law and the prophets. Paul said that Christ is the end of the Law for those who believe. But, God also said that He was declaring new things, so, there were new requirements coming, Jesus gave those new requirements, some of which are found in the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus also said, “If you love me keep my commands” this shows that there are commands or a law that Christians are to abide by
Here is another passage which speaks on the “New Law” that Christians are to abide by. Paul speaks of Christ being a priest after the order of Melchidek.

Hebrews 7:11-21 ( KJV )
If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
(For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:
The writer (Paul) says that since the priesthood was changed there is a changing also of the Law. Notice the writer said a change of the Law not a doing away. He goes on to explain that the old Law, the Mosaic Law had been disannulled, however, he spoke of a change in the Law. This indicates that there is in fact a new law since the priesthood changed. This new law is the commands of Christ.

Among those commands is the command to be baptized. There are others, repentance, is another , and obedience is yet another. So, yes, the Christian does have a Law, the commands of Christ.
 

Butch5

Butch5
Oct 24, 2009
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Homer Ga.
Butch5, since you insist that we must be baptized for salvation, tell us how you were baptized. Father, Son and Holy Spirit? In Jesus' Name? Or ? Obviously you believe that we must do it 'right' to be saved?

Ducky,

This isn't the way one exegete the Scriptures. How I was baptized has no bearing on the meaning of Scripture. If you feel what I've said is incorrect, then please address the passages of Scripture that I've posted and my exegesis of them. If you can show me I have misunderstood them I am willing to listen, but just posing passages that don't speak of baptism of asking how I was baptized isn't going to tell us what the Scriptures mean.