Baptism is it required?

[Aquila]

(treeoflife;54144)
People thinking that someone MUST be baptized to attain salvation, or that one could lose their salvation by not being baptized... is baffeling to me. It makes me wonder what else they think a person must do to attain salvation... or what things they could do to lose it. Baptism is a work as any other. A good work, as we are told to do it. Though, it does not save and it does not condemn. It is a work.
Do you believe a person can be saved if they continue in direct sin and disobedience?

 

[Aquila]

I believe that many well meaning Christians are teaching a “gospel of disobedience” meaning they soft peddle the Lord’s commands teaching an “easy-believism” designed to help add members and tithers quickly without a hitch. LOL

 

[Aquila]

Think of it like this...can a person be saved if they continue in a homosexual lifestyle? Most would say, "no". So then does being "straight" save a person? No. Obedience is born of saving faith. This kind of faith saves a person. Show me a person who seeks to obey the Word of God out of sincere faith and I will show you a person who has saving faith. Show me a person who seeks to escape or soft peddle obedience to the Word of God and I will show you a person who has a mental ascent to Christ's reality...but no saving faith.Saving faith produces obedience.

 

[treeoflife]

(Aquila;54150)
It's not enough that Christ died...Christ had not yet risen. He said it was finished...meaning all in relation to the Old Covenant. The Church wasn't born until Pentecost. The theif wasn't a "Christian" or part of the "church".Also it can be argued that the theif was water baptized being a Jew.
It is finished. Did Jesus lie? Or, what is "it" that was finished?

 

[treeoflife]

(Aquila;54151)
Do you believe a person can be saved if they continue in direct sin and disobedience?
Yup. Sure do. But, only because that is the promise God has given us, by His Word. I also believe a person is saved apart from works, good or bad. Do you?

 

[winsome]

(kriss;54146)
It seems what we have here in this thread is a lack to understand what Baptism is It is not a ceremony, it is not a bath, it is not one man(minister) giving something to someone The only right answer to this question is What is baptism ??It is a promise a covenant made between you and God from your heart that you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior that you believe Christ died for your sins and repent in his name in this you become a new person, the Holy spirit now dwells within you and you have the promise of Salvation. that is what baptism is period. This can be done by anyone anywhere That is the promise of God. To hinge Gods promise on some man made cermony is to deny Gods promise. How one declares this promise wether in public or private does not matter.
Kriss,You are quite right to say that the key question is what is Baptism.However I disagree with your statement for what it is. I see no scriptural or other evidence for your statement. It is just an assertion.Jesus was quite clear“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Mt 28:19) O do not see how this can fit in with your theory.Jesus also said “The one who believes and is baptised will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned” (Mk16:16)Now there are various ways we can tackle this.1. Look at the history of baptism prior to these words of Jesus.2. Ask what “baptism” in these words of Jesus would have meant to the apostles.3. Look at the history of baptism after these words of Jesus.

 

[winsome]

1. Look at the history of baptism prior to these words of Jesus.John’s Baptism.Some verses of scripture are very familiar to us and we pass over them quickly. Yet we ought to pause and think ‘what?’ John the baptiser appeared in the wilderness, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins (Mk 1:4). You can search the Old Testament in vain for any example of someone baptising. So where did John get the practice from? This does not appear to have been some fanciful invention of John’s. It was acceptable to the strict Pharisees and to the Scribes “Then the people of Jerusalem and all Judea were going out to him, and all the region along the Jordan, and they were baptised by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins. But when he saw many Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism……” (Mt 3:5-7).Indeed there was some expectation that the herald of the Messiah would baptise. “They [the Pharisees] asked him, ‘Why then are you baptising if you are neither the Messiah, nor Elijah, nor the prophet?’” (Jn 1:25) Although there is no example in the Old Testament of someone baptising as John did (although the Essenes of Jesus time did use the practice) it come from the mikvah or bath used for ritual cleansing. Mikvah means a gathering of water and so a river is a mikvah. Since rivers were not commonly available it was any suitable pool of water, but not a free standing bath in the modern sense. It had to be dug into the ground, or built into the structure of a building and should contain rainwater with a minimum of 77 gallons. Bathing should be by total immersion and naked to ensure every part of the body was purified.There seem to be three occasions where a mikvar is required in Leviticus, those involving birth (including sex and menstruation), death (including skin diseases) and coming into the presence of God. They seem to be a reminder of our uncleanness and the need for purification. So the mikvar also became a symbol of repentance, of expressing faith that cleansing was available and of asking for it.There is another interesting use of the mikvar. When a Rabbi took a student (at age 30) as his disciple the Rabbi supervised the student taking a mikvar in his name. Thus you became cleansed from your old life (born again) with your Rabbi as your spiritual father, and you were to believe and observe everything he taught you, and obey his commands.The Pharisees bathed daily for ritual cleansing and before entering the temple. Excavations of the Temple Mount area have shown that there were 48 mikvahs for ritual bathing (hence why the apostles could baptise 3,000 at Pentecost). There were other occasions of ritual washing: “For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, do not eat unless they thoroughly wash their hands, thus observing the tradition of the elders; and they do not eat anything from the market unless they wash it; and there are also many other traditions that they observe, the washing of cups, pots, and bronze kettles.” (Mk 7:3-4).The idea that such ritual washing was connected with forgiveness for sin comes from (for example) the purification of the Levites in Numbers 8. “Take the Levites from among the Israelites and cleanse them. Thus you shall do to them, to cleanse them: sprinkle the water of purification on them, have them shave their whole body with a razor and wash their clothes, and so cleanse themselves……The Levites purified themselves from sin and washed their clothes” (verses 6-8 & 21). The idea also occurs in psalm 51 “Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.” This is reflected in Isaiah 1;18 “though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be like snow;”John’s baptism was one of repentance (Gk metanoia = turning) and to reveal the Messiah to them. “The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and declared, ‘Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! This is he of whom I said, After me comes a man who ranks ahead of me because he was before me. I myself did not know him; but I came baptizing with water for this reason, that he might be revealed to Israel’” (Jn 1:29-31).

 

[Aquila]

(treeoflife;54155)
It is finished. Did Jesus lie? Or, what is "it" that was finished?
The Law...the Old Covenant.

 

[winsome]

2. What did Jesus’ words (Mt 28:19) & Mk 16:16). mean to the Apostles? What Jesus mean by baptism?What was their experience of Baptism?This was an important moment. Jesus was giving his last instructions and commissioning them to carry on his mission. It seems to me it was vital that they understood him. Why would he mislead them? So it seems to me that the two should be the same, and we can understand what Jesus meant by what the apostles understood. So what did the apostles understand by baptism? We can discover this by looking at their experience and their practice.What was the apostles experience of baptism? John tells us: “After this Jesus and his disciples went into the Judean countryside, and he spent some time there with them and baptised.” (Jn 3:22) and “They came to John and said to him, Rabbi, the one who was with you across the Jordan, to whom you testified, here he is baptising, and all are going to him.” (Jn 3:26) They saw Jesus baptising – in water.Then they themselves baptised with water. “Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard, ‘Jesus is making and baptising more disciples than John’ —although it was not Jesus himself but his disciples who baptised” (Jn 4:1-2).Note some people say that the reference in Jn 4:2 that it was not Jesus who was baptising refers to Jn 3:22 (& Jn 3:26 as well). But I do not think there is a justification for assuming this. Jesus must have initially baptised the disciples firstly as part of making them his disciples (supervising the mikvah of his students) and secondly to show them his practice. Now what was their practice of baptism?We have seen (above) that they baptised with water at the start of Jesus’ ministry. We also know that they baptised with water after Pentecost (see later for details).So their experience and practice of baptism was baptism with water. This is what they understood by baptism.So if Jesus didn’t mean Baptism with water why did he not say so. Why would he leave them thinking he meant that?

 

[Aquila]

(treeoflife;54156)
Yup. Sure do. But, only because that is the promise God has given us, by His Word. I also believe a person is saved apart from works, good or bad. Do you?
I don't believe one can separate faith from works. Works are the outward actions predicated upon an inward faith. If one has saving faith in the Lord, they will obey the Lord. If one doesn't obey the Lord, that's evidence that they don't have saving faith. I don't believe one can be saved unless they have saving faith.

 

[Aquila]

All I can say is if a Christian thinks they can live in disobedience and be saved they need a revelation.

 

[winsome]

3. Look at the history of baptism after Jesus’ words (Mt 28:19) & Mk 16:16).Philip baptises a eunuch in Acts 8:36-38 “As they were going along the road, they came to some water; and the eunuch said, ‘Look, here is water! What is to prevent me from being baptised?’ He commanded the chariot to stop, and both of them, Philip and the eunuch, went down into the water, and Philip baptised him.” Paul experienced baptism with water. Paul is baptised in Acts 9:18 after receiving back his sight. But note that when he recalled this in Acts 22, Paul says that Ananias said to him “And now why do you delay? Get up, be baptised, and have your sins washed away, calling on his name.’” (Acts 22:16). This clearly a reference to baptism with water.Moreover consider the following: “Do you not know that all of us who have been baptised into Christ Jesus were baptised into his death? Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.” (Rom 6:3-4). Paul here is referring to the practice of baptism by descending into a pool of water.Also Paul says “But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.” (1Cor 6:11)All indicate that baptism with water was practiced.We can also see this in other documents of the early Church For example:"Regarding baptism, baptise thus. After giving the forgoing instructions, "Baptise in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit in running water. But if you have no running water, baptise in any other..." Didache – (1st century AD)“’I have heard sir, said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me. ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is.’” The Shepherd 4:3:1 (AD 80)"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, and instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we pray and fast with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father . . . and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’” [John 3:3]" Justin Martyr First Apology 61 (A.D. 151).And there are more I could quote.

 

[treeoflife]

(Aquila;54162)
All I can say is if a Christian thinks they can live in disobedience and be saved they need a revelation.
All I can say is that if a Christian thinks they can maintain their salvation with works they need a revelation.

 

[Aquila]

(treeoflife;54165)
All I can say is that if a Christian thinks they can maintain their salvation with works they need a revelation.
It's not about "maintaining one's salvation". It's about having faith. If one cannot obey...they DON'T have faith.

And if they don't have faith...they can't be saved.

 

[treeoflife]

(Aquila;54159)
The Law...the Old Covenant.
So it was finished when Jesus said it was so?

 

[treeoflife]

(Aquila;54166)
It's not about "maintaining one's salvation". It's about having faith. If one cannot obey...they DON'T have faith.

And if they don't have faith...they can't be saved.
All I know is that we are no longer under the law. Should we obey? Why yes, we should. Does it take faith to obey? Why yes, often it does. Not only will we experience the blessings that automatically flow from obeying God's law NOW (not only physical, but spiritual), but we will be rewarded with treasure in heaven, just like Jesus told us.What it sounds like you are talking about, is maintaining our salvation with works... or, works from faith, as it were... but works all the same. I do not believe that is true. We are saved by grace through faith, not of works, lest any man boast.

 

[Aquila]

(treeoflife;54167)
So it was finished when Jesus said it was so?
The ceremonial aspects of the Law, yes.The moral aspects of the Law, no. However, this has no bearing on water baptism because Christ commanded it and it was obeyed throughout the book of Acts and throughout the entire history of the church. Read the Great CommissionMatthew 28:19 KJV)(19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: We are to go...teach all nations...baptizing them. If we don't do this we are disobeying Christ. Christ said, (Mark 16:16-17 KJV)(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved....but he that believeth not shall be damned. This tells me...true believers are baptized. Only the unbelieving are not. While they may profess Christ and claim to be Christian...they don't believe in the Lord...for if they truly believed in Him...they would obey him.

 

[Aquila]

(treeoflife;54168)
All I know is that we are no longer under the law. Should we obey? Why yes, we should. Does it take faith to obey? Why yes, often it does. Not only will we experience the blessings that automatically flow from obeying God's law NOW (not only physical, but spiritual), but we will be rewarded with treasure in heaven, just like Jesus told us.What it sounds like you are talking about, is maintaining our salvation with works... or, works from faith, as it were... but works all the same. I do not believe that is true. We are saved by grace through faith, not of works, lest any man boast.
I think you're all mixed up. Saving faith produces obedience. You cannot have one witout the other. They are two sides of the same coin. Now...for a person who doesn't have true faith they have a conflict...they want to be saved...but they don't want to obey...so they embrace a theology that allows them to feel saved while in disobedience. Jesus said, (John 14:15,21 KJV)(15) If ye love me, keep my commandments. (21) He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Those who believe in and love the Lord keep his commandments. You can't find a Christian who truly believes in the Lord and loves him...who doesn't submit to and obey him. You mentioned Ehpesians 2:8-10, that salvation through faith not of works lest any man should boast...let's look at this in context:Ephesians 2:8-10 (King James Version)8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. You see...you're not telling the whole story. Also consider the greater context of the letter to the Ephesians. The Ephesian church ... WAS A WATER BAPTIZED CHURCH.Acts 19:1-71And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7And all the men were about twelve. You see, the Ephesians had been water baptized by John under the Law. But John's baptism was only a prelude to Christian baptism as commanded by Christ. The Ephesians break ranks with the Law by submitting and being water baptized in the name of Jesus. Now, here, we see that they are coming into a complete faith in Messiah as Paul preaches to them. So the very church that Paul wrote regarding faith and works...was a water baptized church! They were a obedient and faithful church. What's soooooo sad is we have Christians who claim the promises of the Ephesian church as written by Paul....but they won't obey the gospel the Ephesian church obeyed!So if you're going to quote Ephesians...don't you think you should embrace the faith they received from Paul?

 

[Latter-day Saint]

(thesuperjag;54120)
Can you explain why Christ uses the word flesh in John 3:6 after the word in John 3:5 then?And your last paragragh difinately sounds like a Mormon teaching. There is no such as "Baptism for the dead" in God's Words. No dead people can be baptized by people who is still living here on Earth. In fact it is quite deceiving, in fact I'm pretty sure they don't believe in the resurrection...if I'm wrong, last time I checked, they believe there are female souls (also unbiblical) so they can make "spiritual babies" (again unbiblical)
Jesus here is contrasting physical birth as Nicodemus pictures in verse four, with being born again, that Jesus talks about in verse three. Physical birth is birth of the flesh, but what Jesus is speaking of in verse five is the new birth, birth by water (baptism by immersion) and the Spirit (receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost).For the record, Mormons do believe in the resurrection, and there is nothing in their doctrine that speaks of "spiritual babies." They also believe the Bible to be the word of God.

 

[treeoflife]

(Aquila;54196)
What's soooooo sad is we have Christians who claim the promises of the Ephesian church as written by Paul....but they won't obey the gospel the Ephesian church obeyed!So if you're going to quote Ephesians...don't you think you should embrace the faith they received from Paul?
Obedience does not give us salvation. Faith in Christ's Word/Work does. It is God's faithfulness TO US that saves us... not our faithfulness to Him. If we have at any time believed, He gives us a promise... the work is done... there is no law to keep (even if we wanted to). No matter of obedience will save us or doom us.I agree, it is sad. However, disobedience to the faith we *should* display in Christ, isn't a matter of salvation. Sin, is sin, is sin. Whether you consider it "walking in disobedience" or sinning once is your own estimation. God squashes it all with the work in Christ.Walking in disobedience, and not displaying the works which precede from faith is sad, yes, I agree. Pending salvation, no, I do not agree. Christ did the work. He has promised to save. He does not break His promises. It is not about our faithfulness to Him, it is His faithfulness to us. And, He WILL GET ALL THE GLORY... no man will.

Praise the Lord