Baptism: Its Meaning and Significance

[This Vale Of Tears]

Interesting topic and it's a shame that Christians have to fight and argue over the most basic of doctrines. Oh that I lived in the days of the apostles and could have gotten the true doctrine directly from their lips, or even better, had been around to hear Jesus teach. All we have now is confusion and corrupted texts. Sad.

But as I try to live by every word of God, though translations vary and whole books and texts are obviously missing from the canon, I must agree that repentance and baptism is required for a remission of sins. As far as infant baptism goes, it is not mentioned, taught, or even insinuated in the Bible. Anyone condoning such a course of action is clearly adding their own voice to the sacred writ, so look out for those plagues! I would sooner go practice baptism for the dead with those Mormons - at least that is spoken of in the Bible as proof of resurrection. Now before you go and accuse me of being a Mormon, I am not. But you guys laugh at them for their plural marriage and baptisms for the dead and whatever else, but at least they get those from the Bible, though they may be confused on the doctrine. Then you will stand by man-made doctrines like original sin and infant baptism that are nowhere to be found in the text. Think again people!

As far as infant baptism goes, it is not mentioned, taught, or even insinuated in the Bible. Anyone condoning such a course of action is clearly adding their own voice to the sacred writ, so look out for those plagues!

What is never insinuated is an "age of accountability". The Bible gives account of entire families being baptized regardless of age, so yes, it's insinuated. You say that you believe baptism is necessary for the remission of sins, but that ought by necessity include original sin which we're all born tainted with. I know it bothers non-catholics that infants are baptized without having made a conscious choice but later they are called to live according to their baptism and that is a choice.

 

[In Christ]

Mungo

In an office environment, if the boss ask a secretary to write a detailed report on a project, whose thoughts and words are in view? Correct, the secretary's. But if the same boss ask the secretary to take a dictation, whose thoughts and words will be in view Right again, the boss'.

Likewise, God commanded and dictated to Paul and to the other human authors what to write. So that you know God is the Author of the Bible, consider the scripture texts recorded below for they are self explanatory.

We know Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible called the Pentateuch, yet he was not born until centuries later. How did he know what conversations and events took place between God and Adam? God must have given him the information. This then was the methodology along with dreams and visions, angel visitation and so forth by which God communicated with man until the Bible was completed.

Ge 5:1 This is the book (Bible) of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

Ge. 17:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

Ex 24:7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.

Jos 1:8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

Still not convinced?

If the following scripture texts does not convince you that God is the Author of the Bible, then I don't know what will.

Jeremiah 36: 1-7:

1 And it came to pass in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, that this word came unto Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2 Take thee a roll of a book (Bible), and write therein all the words that I have spoken unto thee against Israel, and against Judah, and against all the nations, from the day I spake unto thee, from the days of Josiah, even unto this day.
3 It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.
4 Then Jeremiah called Baruch the son of Neriah: and Baruch wrote from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the LORD, which he had spoken unto him, upon a roll of a book.
5 And Jeremiah commanded Baruch, saying, I am shut up; I cannot go into the house of the LORD:
6 Therefore go thou, and read in the roll, which thou hast written from my mouth, the words of the LORD in the ears of the people in the LORD’S house upon the fasting day: and also thou shalt read them in the ears of all Judah that come out of their cities.

Baptism

Please take note the prime mover in the following scripture texts is God. Pay particular attention to verse 25.


24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 ¶ Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Does verse 25 sound like a metaphor to you and not the true washing of regeneration (baptism) as you've stated? Is it by sprinkling or immersion?

I wonder what scripture texts will you find faulty that are laid out in this post? If you do find any faults then you will have to contend with God and not me.

 

[Mungo]

Mungo

In an office environment, if the boss ask a secretary to write a detailed report on a project, whose thoughts and words are in view? Correct, the secretary's. But if the same boss ask the secretary to take a dictation, whose thoughts and words will be in view Right again, the boss'.

Likewise, God commanded and dictated to Paul and to the other human authors what to write. So that you know God is the Author of the Bible, consider the scripture texts recorded below for they are self explanatory.

We know Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible called the Pentateuch, yet he was not born until centuries later. How did he know what conversations and events took place between God and Adam? God must have given him the information. This then was the methodology along with dreams and visions, angel visitation and so forth by which God communicated with man until the Bible was completed.

Ge 5:1 This is the book (Bible) of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

Ge. 17:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

Ex 24:7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.

Jos 1:8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

Still not convinced?

If the following scripture texts does not convince you that God is the Author of the Bible, then I don't know what will.

Jeremiah 36: 1-7:

1 And it came to pass in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, that this word came unto Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2 Take thee a roll of a book (Bible), and write therein all the words that I have spoken unto thee against Israel, and against Judah, and against all the nations, from the day I spake unto thee, from the days of Josiah, even unto this day.
3 It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.
4 Then Jeremiah called Baruch the son of Neriah: and Baruch wrote from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the LORD, which he had spoken unto him, upon a roll of a book.
5 And Jeremiah commanded Baruch, saying, I am shut up; I cannot go into the house of the LORD:
6 Therefore go thou, and read in the roll, which thou hast written from my mouth, the words of the LORD in the ears of the people in the LORD’S house upon the fasting day: and also thou shalt read them in the ears of all Judah that come out of their cities.

God did not dictate Paul's letters. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that. The suggestion is nonsense. You are making God out to be a liar and a deceiver..

Luke said:
Since many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the events that have been fulfilled among us, just as those who were eyewitnesses from the beginning and ministers of the word have handed them down to us, I too have decided, after investigating everything accurately anew, to write it down in an orderly sequence for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may realize the certainty of the teachings you have received.(Lk 1:1-4).

Luke clearly says that he investigated everything anew, he wrote it down in an orderly sequence. If God dictated that to Luke then God is a liar because he is saying that Luke did it.

Moreover the various gospels and letters all have (according to experts) a different literary styles, with variable quality of Greek If God dictated everything then he deliberately adopted different styles and quality of Greek to deceive us into thinking they were written by different people.

Finally your comparison with a secretary does not work because it will either be signed by the boss himself/ herself or by the secretary with a PP. There is no pretence that the letter was the secretary’s work.

Paul’s letters are not signed by Paul, pp God. In fact in several instances Paul seems to have dictated his letters to a secretary and then added a greeting in his own writing.

There are more points on this I could make but the concept is so silly it's not worth wasting time on it.

Baptism

Please take note the prime mover in the following scripture texts is God. Pay particular attention to verse 25.


24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 ¶ Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Does verse 25 sound like a metaphor to you and not the true washing of regeneration (baptism) as you've stated? Is it by sprinkling or immersion?

I wonder what scripture texts will you find faulty that are laid out in this post? If you do find any faults then you will have to contend with God and not me.

I made 7 points about baptism. I don't know which of them you are repling to, indeed if any of them. I don't understand what point you are trying to make here.

 

[In Christ]

Mungo

I'm afraid it is you who make God to be a liar and a deceiver!

You have completely ignored how God told Moses and Jeremiah to write in a book all the words that He told them. What part of the scripture texts that were offered did you not understand? Why, even a child who can read will surely have understood Moses and Jeremiah were told by God to write things in a book (which eventually became the Bible).

You deliberately ignored the issues about Moses and Jeremiah because it exposes the error of how you read and study Scripture.

In your post #158, you said:
That was written by Paul not God. It's Paul who says “the things I write to you.” This is very deceiving because you left out the most important part which reads: “are the commandments of God.” In other words, God commanded and dictated to Paul what to write.

Likewise, 1 Cor 7:10 and 1 Cor 11:23 have the same meaning, both texts came from God.

You think you have the gist of Luke 1:1-4? IMO you don't. Take the phrase, for instance, 'from the very first' in verse 3, it actually means 'from the very first of the Gospel story' that is, the birth of John the Baptist. The Greek word is translated the same way in Acts 26:5 (though in some instances it means 'from above'). John 3:31; James 1:17. Go ahead check it out. It will change your whole perspective on how to read and study the Bible.

Hence, Luke had perfect understanding because it 'came from above' same as Peter in Matthew 16:17.

You also said:
'Moreover the various gospels and letters all have (according to experts) a different literary styles, with variable quality of Greek. If God dictated everything then he deliberately adopted different styles and quality of Greek to deceive us into thinking they were written by different people.

God communicates with us in our level. There are no such experts in the things of God, except God. Man thinks he knows God yet his very best work is still tainted by sin. God can use any form of Greek and in any style if He so wishes. But to deceive? How dare you even insinuate that! That is almost like committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. But I do believe the Bible was also written to foster unbelief.

The illustration about the boss and secretary was to bring out whose thoughts and words were in view and not about who signed and who confirmed it. In other words, if the boss gave a dictation whose words and thoughts will be reflected in the dictation? The boss' of course. And, if the boss told his secretary to write a report on a project, whose thoughts and words will have reflected in the report? The secretary's and not the boss'.

Baptism

I was replying to your post #158 statement #1 where you said, 'baptize means to immerse or plunge... '
I was merely giving my answer to your statement that sprinkling and not to immerse was set forth in Ezekiel 36:25.

In statement #3 you claimed “baptism with the Holy Spirit” is a metaphor not a true baptism.

Lets see what God had to say.

Lu 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

There it is you see. This is the reason Jesus never baptized anyone by water because water has no substance but baptism in the Holy Spirit.

You're probably correct it is no longer profitable to have dialog.

Matthew 10:16

Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise
as serpents, and harmless as doves.

 

[Mungo]

Mungo

I'm afraid it is you who make God to be a liar and a deceiver!

You have completely ignored how God told Moses and Jeremiah to write in a book all the words that He told them. What part of the scripture texts that were offered did you not understand? Why, even a child who can read will surely have understood Moses and Jeremiah were told by God to write things in a book (which eventually became the Bible).

You deliberately ignored the issues about Moses and Jeremiah because it exposes the error of how you read and study Scripture.

In your post #158, you said:
That was written by Paul not God. It's Paul who says “the things I write to you.” This is very deceiving because you left out the most important part which reads: “are the commandments of God.” In other words, God commanded and dictated to Paul what to write.

Likewise, 1 Cor 7:10 and 1 Cor 11:23 have the same meaning, both texts came from God.

You think you have the gist of Luke 1:1-4? IMO you don't. Take the phrase, for instance, 'from the very first' in verse 3, it actually means 'from the very first of the Gospel story' that is, the birth of John the Baptist. The Greek word is translated the same way in Acts 26:5 (though in some instances it means 'from above'). John 3:31; James 1:17. Go ahead check it out. It will change your whole perspective on how to read and study the Bible.

Hence, Luke had perfect understanding because it 'came from above' same as Peter in Matthew 16:17.

You also said:
'Moreover the various gospels and letters all have (according to experts) a different literary styles, with variable quality of Greek. If God dictated everything then he deliberately adopted different styles and quality of Greek to deceive us into thinking they were written by different people.

God communicates with us in our level. There are no such experts in the things of God, except God. Man thinks he knows God yet his very best work is still tainted by sin. God can use any form of Greek and in any style if He so wishes. But to deceive? How dare you even insinuate that! That is almost like committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. But I do believe the Bible was also written to foster unbelief.

The illustration about the boss and secretary was to bring out whose thoughts and words were in view and not about who signed and who confirmed it. In other words, if the boss gave a dictation whose words and thoughts will be reflected in the dictation? The boss' of course. And, if the boss told his secretary to write a report on a project, whose thoughts and words will have reflected in the report? The secretary's and not the boss'.

Baptism

I was replying to your post #158 statement #1 where you said, 'baptize means to immerse or plunge... '
I was merely giving my answer to your statement that sprinkling and not to immerse was set forth in Ezekiel 36:25.

In statement #3 you claimed “baptism with the Holy Spirit” is a metaphor not a true baptism.

Lets see what God had to say.

Lu 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

There it is you see. This is the reason Jesus never baptized anyone by water because water has no substance but baptism in the Holy Spirit.

You're probably correct it is no longer profitable to have dialog.

Matthew 10:16

Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise
as serpents, and harmless as doves.

You are right,

Your comments are so inane it is not worth my while continuing.

[Paul] speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures. (2 Pet 3:16)