Well, as I said I'm going away for a few days. When I come back perhaps someone will have explained why "Baptism saves you now" doesn't mean Baptism saves you now.
Until then I'll leave you with another thought, well several.
John wrote Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. (Jn 3:5)
What did John mean by that.?
Polycarp, Bishop of Smryna was martyred in 155 and was born about 70AD. When he was young he was a disciple of John. One of Polycap’s disciples was Irenaeus of Lyon who was born and brought up in Smryna. He was born about 130. By the year 177 he was a priest in Lyon in France (Gaul) and was made bishop. He wrote many works defending the faith, particularly against the Gnostics. Against Heresies is in five volumes. He also wrote Proof [or demonstrations] of the Apostolic Preaching. We have fragments of other writing that are known only from quotations by other writers.
So here we have someone who was well versed in the teachings from Christianity and only a second generation from John.
He wrote:
" 'And dipped himself,' says [the Scripture], 'seven times in Jordan.' It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but it served as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: 'Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'" Irenaeus, Fragment, 34 (A.D. 190).
So Irenaeus, only two generations from John confirms the teaching that John 3:5 is about baptism and in the waters of baptism we are regenerated.
Justin Martyr was another 2nd century apologist. [SIZE=11pt]His main works are two “Apologies” and Dialogue with Trypho (A Jew). He wrote:[/SIZE]
"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, “Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” …..And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles” (Justin Martyr First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
Of course Bible believers who don’t believe what the Bible clearly says will not believe what the early Church taught either.
In the quote from Irenaeus he also indicates that the healing of Naaman was a prefiguring of baptism and is an interesting parallel. The story is told in 2Kg 5.
Naaman was a commander on the army of the king of Syria, an important man. He has leprosy. A Hebrew slave girl of his wife say if he goes to the prophet in Samaria he will be cured. He goes to Elisha and expects Elisha to present himself before him, invoke God and wave his hand over the leprosy. But Elisha just sent a message to go and wash himself 7 times in the river Jordan.
Naaman was angry and went off saying “Are not the rivers of Damascus, the Abana and the Pharpar, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not wash in them and be cleansed?” (vs 12).
But his servants persuaded him to do what Elisha said “if the prophet had told you to do something extraordinary, would you not have done it? All the more now, since he said to you, ‘Wash and be clean,’ should you do as he said.” (vs 13)
So Naaman went and washed himself in the Jordan 7 times and was cured (vs 14)
Note:
Naaman needed to do two things.
1. Have faith
2. Be obedient
We can say that Naaman had some level of faith because he went to Elisha. However he didn’t have enough to follow a simple command. He thought he knew better. “Are not the rivers of Damascus, the Abana and the Pharpar, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not wash in them and be cleansed?” So he was disobedient as well.
However he was persuaded to have faith and to obey and was cleansed.
Similarly with us. What is required is faith and obedience. And just as with Naaman, it is not the water itself that saves us. He was right - the rivers of Damascus, the Abana and the Pharpar were just as good as the rivers of Israel. It was God who healed him when he did what he was told. In the same way it’s not the water in baptism that saves us, but God when we do what we are told.
Until then I'll leave you with another thought, well several.
John wrote Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. (Jn 3:5)
What did John mean by that.?
Polycarp, Bishop of Smryna was martyred in 155 and was born about 70AD. When he was young he was a disciple of John. One of Polycap’s disciples was Irenaeus of Lyon who was born and brought up in Smryna. He was born about 130. By the year 177 he was a priest in Lyon in France (Gaul) and was made bishop. He wrote many works defending the faith, particularly against the Gnostics. Against Heresies is in five volumes. He also wrote Proof [or demonstrations] of the Apostolic Preaching. We have fragments of other writing that are known only from quotations by other writers.
So here we have someone who was well versed in the teachings from Christianity and only a second generation from John.
He wrote:
" 'And dipped himself,' says [the Scripture], 'seven times in Jordan.' It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but it served as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: 'Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.'" Irenaeus, Fragment, 34 (A.D. 190).
So Irenaeus, only two generations from John confirms the teaching that John 3:5 is about baptism and in the waters of baptism we are regenerated.
Justin Martyr was another 2nd century apologist. [SIZE=11pt]His main works are two “Apologies” and Dialogue with Trypho (A Jew). He wrote:[/SIZE]
"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, “Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” …..And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles” (Justin Martyr First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
Of course Bible believers who don’t believe what the Bible clearly says will not believe what the early Church taught either.
In the quote from Irenaeus he also indicates that the healing of Naaman was a prefiguring of baptism and is an interesting parallel. The story is told in 2Kg 5.
Naaman was a commander on the army of the king of Syria, an important man. He has leprosy. A Hebrew slave girl of his wife say if he goes to the prophet in Samaria he will be cured. He goes to Elisha and expects Elisha to present himself before him, invoke God and wave his hand over the leprosy. But Elisha just sent a message to go and wash himself 7 times in the river Jordan.
Naaman was angry and went off saying “Are not the rivers of Damascus, the Abana and the Pharpar, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not wash in them and be cleansed?” (vs 12).
But his servants persuaded him to do what Elisha said “if the prophet had told you to do something extraordinary, would you not have done it? All the more now, since he said to you, ‘Wash and be clean,’ should you do as he said.” (vs 13)
So Naaman went and washed himself in the Jordan 7 times and was cured (vs 14)
Note:
Naaman needed to do two things.
1. Have faith
2. Be obedient
We can say that Naaman had some level of faith because he went to Elisha. However he didn’t have enough to follow a simple command. He thought he knew better. “Are not the rivers of Damascus, the Abana and the Pharpar, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not wash in them and be cleansed?” So he was disobedient as well.
However he was persuaded to have faith and to obey and was cleansed.
Similarly with us. What is required is faith and obedience. And just as with Naaman, it is not the water itself that saves us. He was right - the rivers of Damascus, the Abana and the Pharpar were just as good as the rivers of Israel. It was God who healed him when he did what he was told. In the same way it’s not the water in baptism that saves us, but God when we do what we are told.
opcorn:
