Baptism question that seems unbiblical

[BreadOfLife]

ERROR, Belief + Faith =Works. second, Belief +works = Fruit.

and James 2 is not speaking to the faithless, for they are saved.

PCY.

NOT according to the Holy Spirit speaking through James.
James explicitly marries works and belief to equal faith:

James 2:17-26
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is DEAD.

Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.

You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the DEMONS believe that and tremble.

Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?

You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was COMPLETED by the works.

Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

See how a person is justified by works and NOT BY FAITH ALONE.

And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

When James speaks of faith being dead without works - he is talking about BELIEF.
He qualifies this by saying that "even the demons believe."

James, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, is explicitly stating here that: Belief + works = Faith.

 

[mjrhealth]

And JEsus said

Mar 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
Mar 10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
Mar 10:44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
Mar 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Bu why believe the truth when the lie is more pleasing to teh flesh. And this is why so few follow after Christ, and why religion in no different to Egypt, a prison for teh slaves. Burt men with Idols must defend them even to death as they usually do.

 

[101G]

NOT according to the Holy Spirit speaking through James.
James explicitly marries works and belief to equal faith:

well let's hear from the MASTER MOUTH himself, Mark 11:22 "And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. 23 "For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith".

see, James said, verse 14 "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?". see the difference, Faith in God or Faith in MAN.
that's your failing in not knowing the difference. here in Jame is the FRUIT that is produce. and one of the Fruit of THE SPIRIT is "Faith. lets check the record. Galatians 5:22 & 23 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 "Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law".

see, one must ADD to their Faith, lets check the record, 2 Peter 1:5 "And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 "And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; :7 "And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.2 8 "For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ".

James was teaching brotherly kindness and CHARITY which is LOVE toward one another, the GREAT command. see BOL, it is the Faith of JESUS the christ. again let's check the record right there in James. Chapter 2 verse 1 "My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons".

maybe you might need the Holy Spirit teach you some more. I suggest you re-read this post for clarity.

PCY.

 

[amadeus]

I'm not trusting in men. I'm trusting in CHRIST, who is both man AND God.
He guaranteed that the gates of Hell would NOT prevail against His Church - and that the Holy Spirit would guide it to ALL truth (John 16:12-15).

Have you ever even seen Him? Your own witness here on this forum reflects to us only the empty shell of a church. If you had seen Him and were looking to see Him more clearly would you and should you not be loving those you believe to be in error, but who are hungry and thirsty for His righteousness? Instead it seems that you remain in confusion apparently because your own failure to love the truth has brought you delusion so that you believe that which is really a lie. You will now call me a liar, but God knows the truth.

Love is according to I Cor 13:4-7. Delusion is according to II Thess 2:11. When you come to love the truth above your church the delusion may be removed...

And, in case you didn't know - the Bible is God-breathed (2 Tim. 3:16) and it is His Word that points us to Apostolic Succession. What it NEVER points to is Protestantism . . .

Look to the type or shadow of them in the northern 10 tribes of Israel and the two southern tribes of Judah [including Benjamin]. Both of them were carried away into captivity due to their unfaithfulness toward God. Don't let yourself being carried away because of your unfaithfulness to Him. You are faithful, indeed, but it is misdirected by your delusion.

ONE Church, ONE Faith, ONE Baptism - not tens of thousands of churches or tens of thousands of faiths.

Yes - ONE - not tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering sects teaching different doctrines.

"There are almost as many sects and beliefs as there are heads; this one will not admit baptism; that one rejects the Sacrament of the altar; another places another world between the present one and the day of judgment; some teach that Jesus Christ is not God. There is not an individual, however clownish he may be, who does not claim to be inspired by the Holy Ghost, and who does not put forth as prophecies his ravings and dreams."
- Martin Luther, Christians at Antwerp, 1525

Yes, and they all splintered from another at least as bad as themselves. There has, however, since it was first established, always been One Church although so many within the churches including your church have unable to see it, even as Pilate was unable to see the truth standing before him.

 

[Stranger]

WRONG.

Acts 1:20 is about Apostolic Succession. It's not about a simple "replacement".
It's about taking over an OFFICE - a Bishopric - not a missing puzzle piece. You can't just wish away "Episkopay" . . .

Secondly - Timothy was a Bishop of Ephesus: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Saint-Timothy
ust because it's not mentioned in that verse doesn't mean it wasn't so. In 1 Tim. 3 - Paul gave Timothy instructions on selecting Bishops - and ONLY a Bishop could do that.

Finally - your entire "Romanist" and "Roman" Catholic Church clap-trap is based in a deep ignorance of history.
We first hear of "Roman" Catholic Church when Henry VIII broke away to start his own version of the "Catholic" Church - the "Catholic" Church if England. "Roman" Catholic Church was simply his way using a pejorative term for the real Catholic Church.

The wonderful thing about debating historically-ignorant people like yourself is that you're so easily beatable.
History is there for ALL to see so, you're just arguing nonsense . . .

Just because there is an office of bishop in the Church does not prove any apostolic succession. That churches should maintain and teach the faith of the apostles is not apostolic succession. The twelve disciples were a unique apostleship. And Paul's apostleship was not of the twelve at all. Just because Paul gave instructions on choosing bishops, deacons, and elders in (1Tim. 3), doesn't make him a bishop and successor of the twelve apostles.

It wasn't Henry the 8th who first recognized the distinction between the Roman and Catholic Church. That distinction came as the result of a period of time where slowly Rome developed a heirarchy of priests over the Catholic Church, and then Romanizing the Catholic Church with the Roman Pontiff over the Church. Many recognized it and thus the term Romanist, Roman Catholic, and Romanism, would come about.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

well let's hear from the MASTER MOUTH himself, Mark 11:22 "And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. 23 "For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith".

see, James said, verse 14 "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?". see the difference, Faith in God or Faith in MAN.
that's your failing in not knowing the difference. here in Jame is the FRUIT that is produce. and one of the Fruit of THE SPIRIT is "Faith. lets check the record. Galatians 5:22 & 23 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 "Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law".

see, one must ADD to their Faith, lets check the record, 2 Peter 1:5 "And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 "And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; :7 "And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.2 8 "For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ".

James was teaching brotherly kindness and CHARITY which is LOVE toward one another, the GREAT command. see BOL, it is the Faith of JESUS the christ. again let's check the record right there in James. Chapter 2 verse 1 "My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons".

maybe you might need the Holy Spirit teach you some more. I suggest you re-read this post for clarity.

PCY.

And yet, the Word of God tells us that of the three great virtues or Faith, Hope and Love - the greatest of these is LOVE and not faith. Love is something you DO - something you SHOW.

1 Cor. 13:1-3
If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have LOVE, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have LOVE, I gain nothing.

This is precisely why James said that faith without works is dead.

 

[101G]

And yet, the Word of God tells us that of the three great virtues or Faith, Hope and Love - the greatest of these is LOVE and not faith. Love is something you DO - something you SHOW.

1 Cor. 13:1-3
If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have LOVE, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have LOVE, I gain nothing.

This is precisely why James said that faith without works is dead.

LOVE is what LOVE dose, I said that. anything NEW?.

PCY.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Just because there is an office of bishop in the Church does not prove any apostolic succession. That churches should maintain and teach the faith of the apostles is not apostolic succession. The twelve disciples were a unique apostleship. And Paul's apostleship was not of the twelve at all. Just because Paul gave instructions on choosing bishops, deacons, and elders in (1Tim. 3), doesn't make him a bishop and successor of the twelve apostles.

It wasn't Henry the 8th who first recognized the distinction between the Roman and Catholic Church. That distinction came as the result of a period of time where slowly Rome developed a heirarchy of priests over the Catholic Church, and then Romanizing the Catholic Church with the Roman Pontiff over the Church. Many recognized it and thus the term Romanist, Roman Catholic, and Romanism, would come about.

Stranger

Careful - your ignorance is showing again . . .

The term "Roman Catholic Church" was a derogatory term born in Henry VIII's England.
There is not one document, declaration or dereee prior to Henry VIII that speaks of the "Roman Catholic Church".

As for Timothy's Bishopric - this is hardly a matter of debate among Church scholars - Catholic OR Protestant.
Simple denial of apostolic succession doesn't just make it "go away" . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

LOVE is what LOVE dose, I said that. anything NEW?.

PCY.

And the love that Paul is describing in 1 Cor. 13 amounts to WORKS and NOT a simple intellectual assent.
Faith is works and works are faith.

This is why Luther called the Epistle of James the "Epistle of Straw" and wanted to remove it from the canon of Scripture.
Had it not been for the objections of his contemporary, Philip Melanchton - YOUR Bible would be thinner . . .

 

[101G]

And the love that Paul is describing in 1 Cor. 13 amounts to WORKS and NOT a simple intellectual assent.
Faith is works and works are faith.

May I ask, who dose the work in 1 Cor. 13:1-3 that Paul spoke of?.

PCY.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Have you ever even seen Him? Your own witness here on this forum reflects to us only the empty shell of a church. If you had seen Him and were looking to see Him more clearly would you and should you not be loving those you believe to be in error, but who are hungry and thirsty for His righteousness? Instead it seems that you remain in confusion apparently because your own failure to love the truth has brought you delusion so that you believe that which is really a lie. You will now call me a liar, but God knows the truth.

Yup - I see Him every time I receive Him in the Eucharist.
As for my actions on this forum - they are mere REactions to the lies, myths and falsehoods spewn by you and your anti-Catholic cronies here.

The ONLY think I attack here are lies and misrepresentations.
I simply expose the ones telling them.

Love is according to I Cor 13:4-7. Delusion is according to II Thess 2:11. When you come to love the truth above your church the delusion may be removed...

Look to the type or shadow of them in the northern 10 tribes of Israel and the two southern tribes of Judah [including Benjamin]. Both of them were carried away into captivity due to their unfaithfulness toward God. Don't let yourself being carried away because of your unfaithfulness to Him. You are faithful, indeed, but it is misdirected by your delusion.

Spoken like a man who doesn't have the foggiest clue as to What Christ's Church is.

Jesus equates His Church with His very SELF (Acts 9:4-5).
You can't love the Church more than the Truth if Jesus is Truth itself . . .

Yes, and they all splintered from another at least as bad as themselves. There has, however, since it was first established, always been One Church although so many within the churches including your church have unable to see it, even as Pilate was unable to see the truth standing

Wrong again.

The tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering Protestant sects are in need of RETURN to Christ's Church. Although related to His Church - you are self-separated from that ONE Church. You can't have tens of thousands of sets of doctrines and pretend that it is one "united" Church.

There is only ONE Church - and you separated yourself from it.

 

[BreadOfLife]

May I ask, who dose the work in 1 Cor. 13:1-3 that Paul spoke of?.

PCY.

WE do.
God prepared them for US to do (Eph. 2:10, Matt. 25:31-46).

 

[101G]

WE do.
God prepared them for US to do (Eph. 2:10, Matt. 25:31-46).

So you are saying we do the work. LOL...LOL. now let's eliminate this ERROR and tell the truth. 2 Timothy 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began". now in 1 Cor. 13:1-3 is the apostle Paul speaking in tongues of angel, or prophesying, or pastoring? NO.

here's why, all these action are of GOD, and not men. you ERROR when you quoted Ephesians 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them". HIS, HIS, HIS, workmanship to work through. not U. so you didn't know that did you. it is God who work through us. it's not us.

so that's ERROR #1. I'll give you a chance to response.

PCY.

 

[Stranger]

Careful - your ignorance is showing again . . .

The term "Roman Catholic Church" was a derogatory term born in Henry VIII's England.
There is not one document, declaration or dereee prior to Henry VIII that speaks of the "Roman Catholic Church".

As for Timothy's Bishopric - this is hardly a matter of debate among Church scholars - Catholic OR Protestant.
Simple denial of apostolic succession doesn't just make it "go away" . . .

Of course it was derogatory. It is derogatory today. The words, 'Roman Catholic Church' don't have to be used by those who recognized the difference between the Roman Church and the Catholic Church. Words such as 'Romanist' to distinguish between Catholic and the Roman Church speak to the same.

Being the Romanist you are, you want a single document or decree declaring that the Roman church is the Roman Catholic Church. A single document is not necessary. That those who recognized the Romanists as different than the Catholic Church, and would later label the Roman Church The Roman Catholic Church, is proof that they saw a difference. Rome wants to be over all the Church...the Catholic Church. But she isn't. And never will be.

As for Timothy's Bishopric - as I said before, things are not so just because you say they are. And you have no Scripture to prove any apostolic succession. You simply try to find Scripture to make it try and support apostolic succession. There is no apostolic succession to make 'go away'.

Stranger

 

[amadeus]

Yup - I see Him every time I receive Him in the Eucharist.
As for my actions on this forum - they are mere REactions to the lies, myths and falsehoods spewn by you and your anti-Catholic cronies here.

Well I do sincerely hope you are as close to Him as you think your are.

The ONLY think I attack here are lies and misrepresentations.
I simply expose the ones telling them.

You do not know who is lying, even though you think you do. You should communicate with God about it.

Spoken like a man who doesn't have the foggiest clue as to What Christ's Church is.

Jesus equates His Church with His very SELF (Acts 9:4-5).
You can't love the Church more than the Truth if Jesus is Truth itself . . .

But a person can do exactly that with his misguided direction as a result of delusion. This is why He warns us here:

But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

He does not say to seek the church or the Church first. Those are to be among the added things.

The tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering Protestant sects are in need of RETURN to Christ's Church. Although related to His Church - you are self-separated from that ONE Church. You can't have tens of thousands of sets of doctrines and pretend that it is one "united" Church.

I would ask you to ask God to give you understanding with regard to the following verse as it relates to you. You know something about the Bible, but little or nothing about the Word of God:

"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." I Cor 13:2
Rather following my suggestion you may rebuke me again, but then I will pray for you.

There is only ONE Church - and you separated yourself from it.

No, I did not do that. I moved away from God, but when He drew me back to Him it was to a richer fuller place than I had ever before known. There are Catholics in good places with God, but I a do not see from your fruits that you are one of them. I will continue to pray for you.

 

[Marymog]

Actually the Catholic Church pretty much agreed with Luther on this doctrine by now. Here's a link to the "Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church.":

Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

Shame on you. Not true.

The declaration said that there were still differences between the Catholic and Lutheran articulation of the doctrine of justification. The declaration does not cover all that either church teaches about justification but it does encompass a consensus on basic truths of the doctrine of justification. The declaration shows remaining differences.

The Lutheran Church went through the spectacle of approving the document with the clear expectation that the Catholic Church would immediately do likewise.

The Catholic Church objected to a number of statements in the joint declaration and insisted on clarifications before it could be approved.

The Lutheran Church consented and an annex was submitted.

Did you even read the document??????

Mary

 

[Stranger]

The tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering Protestant sects are in need of RETURN to Christ's Church. Although related to His Church - you are self-separated from that ONE Church. You can't have tens of thousands of sets of doctrines and pretend that it is one "united" Church.

There is only ONE Church - and you separated yourself from it.

The unity of the Church is through the Holy Ghost, not doctrine. We are unified in the Church if we have the Spirit of Christ. Faith in Christ is what brings us into that unity. After that, doctrine then becomes important.

Just because believers refuse to be under the Roman papal rule does not mean the Church is splintering. Rome has always caused division. She did it first with the Eastern Orthodox Church in 1054. Why? Because the Eastern Church refused to be under the papal rule. This was long before Luther and the Protestant Reformation.

So, if you want to blame anyone for causing division, blame the Roman Church.

Stranger

 

[Marymog]

bread of life ,

[[[[[[[[[[ [First of all - if you were actually a Catholic, you would have read the Bible during Mass.
In a 3 year cycle, virtually the ENTIRE Bible is read aloud]]]]]]]]]]]

3 years to read the bible........ no way............
After not seeing the bible all that time.... When we changed to a bible church and started to read the bible...
There were so many things I never knew.......... They may now teach better , but in my time.........
NO Way.........
I felt I was going to Hell all those years.............

Now I know I am going to heaven ............ I now read the bible..................

Hi Grams,

It sounds like either your parents failed you or you didn't pay attention when attending The Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church has been reading from scripture at every mass for a long time: On the day called Sunday there is a gathering together in the same place of all who live in a given city or rural district. The memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read (scripture), as long as time permits. Then when the reader ceases, the president (priest) in a discourse admonishes and urges the imitation of these good things. Next we all rise together and send up prayers. When we cease from our prayer, bread is presented and wine and water. The president in the same manner sends up prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people sing out their assent, saying the 'Amen.' A distribution and participation of the elements (Eucharist) for which thanks have been given is made to each person, and to those who are not present they are sent by the deacons. Those who have means and are willing, each according to his own choice, gives what he wills, and what is collected is deposited with the president. He provides for the orphans and widows, those who are in need on account of sickness or some other cause, those who are in bonds, strangers who are sojourning, and in a word he becomes the protector of all who are in need. And this food is called among us the Eucharist….it is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. (Justin Martyr, 152AD)

Since you didn't see the bible all that time you were in Church (going to mass) does that mean you are you older than Justin Martyr??? Justin Martyr read it at mass but you didn't??? ;)

The three year cycle of reading the entire bible began back in the 1960's. Did you attend the Catholic Church before or after the 1960's???



IHS...Mary

 

[Windmill Charge]

I think you are saying faith leads to baptism AND good works?

Mary

Baptism is a work of faith. So yes we believe by faith and when we ready we are baptised.

 

[bbyrd009]

Baptism is a work of faith. So yes we believe by faith and when we ready we are baptised.

ritually, perhaps, but that does not address baptism IRL, seems to me. Iow we have no ritual for the baptism of fire, etc