Baptism question that seems unbiblical

[BreadOfLife]

Yes, those within the True Church eventually will not miss a turn. With that I will agree. Of course, we will likely disagree on where and what the True Church is.

I may be a liar and you may be a liar, but Jesus is not.

Like I said - the individual may fall away or go down the "wrong" path but the Church cannot.
It has Christ's guarantee.

Again as you are following the scripture, I will agree with the bare bones of your statement, if not necessarily with any details you might insert. But, one word that you have inserted is "Church". The Bible versions I have checked use only a pronoun, "ye" or "you"... no "church".

And one of the first hermneuticall rules is this:
When Jesus instructs the crowds - He is instructing the Church at large (ALL of us).
When He instructed His inner circle - He was instructing the leaders of the Church

Truth does not change, but man's understanding of it does. This is where the increase from God should come into it... if it does.

Yes, MAN's understanding of the truth can change - but NOT the Church's because it has Christ as the Head (Col. 1:18).
That's why Paul referred to it as the "pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).

 

[Grams]

bread of life ,

[[[[[[[[[[ [First of all - if you were actually a Catholic, you would have read the Bible during Mass.
In a 3 year cycle, virtually the ENTIRE Bible is read aloud]]]]]]]]]]]

3 years to read the bible........ no way............
After not seeing the bible all that time.... When we changed to a bible church and started to read the bible...
There were so many things I never knew.......... They may now teach better , but in my time.........
NO Way.........
I felt I was going to Hell all those years.............

Now I know I am going to heaven ............ I now read the bible..................

 

[Windmill Charge]

Dear friend,

I believe scripture. Scripture says baptism saves us.

It also says to confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

It also says a person is justified by works and not by faith alone further saying Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’ shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that does the will of my Father. What do you think we have to DO to be saved?

To pretend that scripture says only one thing, faith and trust saves us, is to delete the portions of scripture that we don't agree with....or understand.

YOU can hit the delete button on the parts of scripture you don't agree with. I agree with all of scripture.

Love, Mary

We need to get things in the right order.

We are saved by faith, the gift of God and not by works so we cannot boast in our good works.

and we show that we are living by faith by the works that we do, that God has prepared for us.

It is only those who have been saved by Jesus's death and resurrection who can seek to show their love for him by obeying his commands.

Baptism ios part of the same sequence, saved by faith, show it by doing.

 

[Windmill Charge]

TRUE faith requires obedience.

Jesus said:
Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is BAPTIZED will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

He ALSO said of Baptism:
John 3:5
“Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of WATER and Spirit.

2 chapters earlier, when Jesus was baptized - what did we see? WATER and the Holy Spirit.
Right after He tells Nicodemus that we must be baptized to be saved - what do Jesus and the Apostles do?? They spend time BAPTIZING people.

The first 3 chapters of the Gospel of John are drenched with the teaching of Baptismal Regeneration.

Yes you are right to say we must be obedient.
But as I have already said there is an order that has to be followed.
We believe by faith in Jesus and having believed we show that faith by our actions.

Our action do not save us, they only show that we have faith, obedience and our love.

 

[amadeus]

Like I said - the individual may fall away or go down the "wrong" path but the Church cannot.
It has Christ's guarantee.

So then all that we have to do is stay on the Lord's side.

And one of the first hermneuticall rules is this:
When Jesus instructs the crowds - He is instructing the Church at large (ALL of us).
When He instructed His inner circle - He was instructing the leaders of the Church

This thing of hermeneutics is something I only first heard of a number of years ago when I began to frequent Christian forums on the Internet. If I ever use it or go by it is not purposely as I still am still fuzzy about what it means. I simply hold to God. Will He misdirect me if I trust Him and lean on Him?

Who are the leaders of the Church? I read what it says in Ephesians 4 and understand, but still there is a lot of misinformation manifested around us. Many people manifest a little of the gifts of those five mentioned ministries [Eph. 4:11], but who is actually called to those positions and who is paying close attention to their calling? For us to fall correctly into the place to receive and benefit by their ministry is where all of us at times miss the Way. We are very dependent on God and so if we do not yield to Him we are in for trouble. Fortunately, He is merciful and loving and will always help anyone who is really hungry and thirsty for his righteousness [Matt5:6 ]

Yes, MAN's understanding of the truth can change - but NOT the Church's because it has Christ as the Head (Col. 1:18).
That's why Paul referred to it as the "pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).

Ah yes, men's understanding which needs to be perfected in accord with Ephesians 4:12-15 . God's truth is what is needed by each person. You say that the Church as you know it has it and is willing and able to provide it. This would be through God's ministry, especially those within those five designated positions: apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers and evangelists. I would never deny that men within your organization [I have met more than one] have been called to those positions, but there are also others outside [some of whom I have also met].

The problem for all of us is to come to place where we put first things first and leave the rest up to God. In fighting is not good for anyone who really believes in the first things.

 

[BreadOfLife]

So then all that we have to do is stay on the Lord's side.

This thing of hermeneutics is something I only first heard of a number of years ago when I began to frequent Christian forums on the Internet. If I ever use it or go by it is not purposely as I still am still fuzzy about what it means. I simply hold to God. Will He misdirect me if I trust Him and lean on Him?

Who are the leaders of the Church? I read what it says in Ephesians 4 and understand, but still there is a lot of misinformation manifested around us. Many people manifest a little of the gifts of those five mentioned ministries [Eph. 4:11], but who is actually called to those positions and who is paying close attention to their calling? For us to fall correctly into the place to receive and benefit by their ministry is where all of us at times miss the Way. We are very dependent on God and so if we do not yield to Him we are in for trouble. Fortunately, He is merciful and loving and will always help anyone who is really hungry and thirsty for his righteousness [Matt5:6 ]

Uhhhh - the Apostles were the first leaders of the Church and everybody they ordained was given authority to ordain others (2 Tim. 2:2).
This is called Apostolic Succession and it began with the replacement of Judas, when they chose Matthias top take is office (Bishopric) in Acts 1.

Ah yes, men's understanding which needs to be perfected in accord with Ephesians 4:12-15 . God's truth is what is needed by each person. You say that the Church as you know it has it and is willing and able to provide it. This would be through God's ministry, especially those within those five designated positions: apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers and evangelists. I would never deny that men within your organization [I have met more than one] have been called to those positions, but there are also others outside [some of whom I have also met].

The problem for all of us is to come to place where we put first things first and leave the rest up to God. In fighting is not good for anyone who really believes in the first things.

There is no "in fighting" between the Catholic Church and the Protestant sects. If you're not IN, you can't fight FROM within.
What is needed is for those who are separated from Christ's Church to come home to the Church.

Eph. 4-5
". . . ONE Lord, ONE FAITH, ONE baptism; ONE God and Father of ALL, who is over all and through all and IN all.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes you are right to say we must be obedient.
But as I have already said there is an order that has to be followed.
We believe by faith in Jesus and having believed we show that faith by our actions.

Our action do not save us, they only show that we have faith, obedience and our love.

Your problem is that you are dissecting what faith is.

James clearly explains what true faith is - and it ain't just "belief" (James 2:14-26).
He states that even the DEMONS believe (James 2:19). Are they saved?? NO.

True faith is a marriage of belief and works. You cannot have one without the other.
Belief + works = Faith

James and Paul didn't preach "different" Gospels. They emphasized two sides of the SAME coin.

 

[BreadOfLife]

3 years to read the bible........ no way............
After not seeing the bible all that time.... When we changed to a bible church and started to read the bible...
There were so many things I never knew.......... They may now teach better , but in my time.........
NO Way.........
I felt I was going to Hell all those years.............

Now I know I am going to heaven ............ I now read the bible..................

Sooooo, you believe that by reading the Bible, you're going to Heaven?

Tell me - where did Jesus say that we needed to read the Bible in order to be saved?? He didn't.
But, he DID say that we needed to follow His commands and be obedient in order to be saved (Matt. 7:21-23, Matt. 25:31-46, Mark 16:16).

Whether you deny it or not - almost the entire Bible IS read aloud in mass over a 3 year period. There are also Bible studies you could have attended and all sorts of other programs within the Church that were at your disposal - but instead, you chose to be seduced away of your faith for the easy-believeism of a Protestant sect.

 

[Marymog]

We need to get things in the right order.

We are saved by faith, the gift of God and not by works so we cannot boast in our good works.

and we show that we are living by faith by the works that we do, that God has prepared for us.

It is only those who have been saved by Jesus's death and resurrection who can seek to show their love for him by obeying his commands.

Baptism ios part of the same sequence, saved by faith, show it by doing.

I think you are saying faith leads to baptism AND good works?

Mary

 

[Stranger]

Uhhhh - the Apostles were the first leaders of the Church and everybody they ordained was given authority to ordain others (2 Tim. 2:2).
This is called Apostolic Succession and it began with the replacement of Judas, when they chose Matthias top take is office (Bishopric) in Acts 1.

There is no "in fighting" between the Catholic Church and the Protestant sects. If you're not IN, you can't fight FROM within.
What is needed is for those who are separated from Christ's Church to come home to the Church.

Eph. 4-5
". . . ONE Lord, ONE FAITH, ONE baptism; ONE God and Father of ALL, who is over all and through all and IN all.

(2 Tim. 2:2) says nothing of apostolic succession. It only encourages Timothy to commit to faithful men that which he was taught also.

Oh great. Apostolic succession is the lineage of Judas? Please.

As to the 'in fighting', you are wrong again. The believers in the Roman Church and the believers in the Protestant Church, are all part of the Catholic Church. Thus the Protestant believers don't need to 'come home'. They are already there. They just refuse to be under the authority of the Roman Pontiff and Roman church.

Stranger

 

[Grams]

Hello BreadOfLife,

Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth

'Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the world of truth."(2 Tim. 2.15)

· Have you ever wondered why today's Christians can eat pork even though in the Old Testament men were forbidden to do so?

· Or, do you know people (or, perhaps yourself) who shun Christianity because Christians can't seem to agree on anything?

· And what about all those contractions in the Bible?



These are all valid concerns, but when a person begins to "rightly divide" the word of truth, as admonished by Paul to Timothy, these seeming difficulties and disputations are resolved. To "rightly divide" means that God has dealt with mankind at different times with different expectations from him. Although it is profitable for us to read the entire Bible (2Tim.3:16), it is imperative that we understand which part of the Bible is intended primarily for us in this time of Grace. The following excerpt from the book "Things That Differ" by C.R. Stam explains:

"If I should step inside a modern United States Post Office all would doubtless seem very confusing to me. But it would be a mistake to suggest piling all the mail neatly into one corner and handing it out promiscuously to all comers as some would do with the Bible. The postal employees must rightly divide the mail so that each person receives what is addressed to him. What seems like confusion to the novice is really a simplification of the work to be done in getting each person's private mail
to him.

It is granted that in the Bible even that which was addressed to those of other dispensations is given to us for our learning and profit, but we must not confuse this with our own private mail or make the mistake of carrying out instructions meant particularly for others.

While I am reading mail addressed personally to me, a friend may hand me, for my interest or information, mail addressed to him. His mail and mine may all prove informative and profitable, but I must still be careful not to confuse the two, expecting to receive things promised to him or carrying out instructions addressed to him.

Thus, all the Bible is for us, but it is not all addressed to us or written about us, and if we would really understand and enjoy it; if we would really know how to use it effectively in service for Christ, we must be careful always to note who is addressing whom, about what and when and why" (p.20).



In every dispensation, righteousness before God has always been achieved by believing what God has said and acting upon it. For example, the law required every male child to be circumcised, but that is not God's requirement today.

The LAW says: And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. Gen. 17:14.

But GRACE says: And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands...Col. 2:10,11.



There were also many dietary laws, and one in particular many people remember is the prohibition not to eat pork. But under the dispensation of Grace, we are not under those prohibitions.

The LAW says: And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: Ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass. Deut. 14:8

But GRACE says: For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 1Tim: 4:4



And the Sabbath day. In our day of grace, one day is like unto another. All are to be lived to the glory of God.

The Law says: Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy. But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God...Ex. 20:8,10.

But GRACE says: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days... Col.2:16,17


And because of the finished work of Jesus Christ at the Cross, we are no longer under any provision of the law for the forgiveness of sin.

The Law says: And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. (Matt. 6:12) For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Matt. 6:14,15.

But GRACE says: And ye be kind one to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you. Eph. 4.32.


The ultimate example of the difference between law and grace is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross. The law required annual blood sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins, which we now understand were but a foreshadow of the ultimate sacrifice Christ Jesus would make for the complete payment for all of our sins.

The Law says: The blood of bulls and goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifiethto the purifying of the flesh. Heb. 9:13

But GRACE says: Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. Heb. 9:12


For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. (Romans 10:4)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph. 2:8,9)


Where the dispensation of the law was entrusted to Moses (John 1:17), the dispensation of the grace of God was entrusted to Paul. Why is understanding this so important? Because it is by this message of grace, dispensed by Paul, that God will judge us. Remember, righteousness comes by believing what God says (i.e., what God is saying to us in this age of Grace) and acting on it. That is what faith is: believing God; trusting Him and His Word. Paul says in Romans 2:16:

In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to MY Gospel.


Paul tells us that he was appointed by God to be the Apostle to the Gentiles, "For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the Apostle of the Gentiles,..." (Ro. 11:13) and that his message was revealed to him directly by Jesus Christ:

But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached to of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by revelation of Jesus Christ. (Gal.1:11,12)


How then does Paul's gospel differ? Pastor Thomas Brusha, in his booklet "Dictionary of the Gospel" gives a clear explanation:

God promised in the Old Testament to set up a Kingdom here on earth through the nation Israel, in which Christ would reign as King! Christ was here; and the good news proclaimed was that the Kingdom was at hand. In Matthew 10:7 we find this to be the same gospel the Twelve Apostles were sent to preach. Also, in Matthew 10:5,6 we learn that this gospel was good news for the Nation of Israel. It is amazing, yet true, that after the Twelve Apostles had been preaching this gospel now, for some time, they still did not know about Christ's purpose to go to the Cross and die for their sins. We know this is true because when Christ began later to tell his Apostles that he was going to Jerusalem to die, they didn't believe him, nor did they understand what he was talking about. The reason being, they were preaching the good news about the Kingdom. They expected Christ to establish Israel's Kingdom and to take the throne as their King - see Matthew 16:21,22; Luke 18:31-34: and Luke 19:11.


How then, could the twelve Apostles have preached the same gospel the Apostle Paul later preached, when they did not know or understand anything about the Cross at that time? Paul preached :

"THE CROSS" and "CHRIST CRUCIFIED (1 Corinthians 1:18,23)

The point is this. The gospel that the Twelve Apostles preached during the earthly ministry of Christ is not the same gospel the Apostle Paul was sent to preach later. According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 the gospel Paul preached was the GOOD NEWS of the DEATH, BURIAL, and RESURRECTION of Christ FOR OUR SINS.

Paul tells us in Galatians 1:11,12 where his gospel originated. It was after the resurrection and ascension that the Lord Jesus Christ revealed to the Apostle Paul all that was accomplished on the Cross. In acts 20:24 Paul calls this message "THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD." In Galatians 2:1,2 we see that this gospel is intended for the Gentiles as well as the Jews; and in Galatians 2:6-10 we find that the Twelve Apostles learned of this gospel from Paul.

In this present age of "GRACE", God has set Israel as a nation aside, and the Kingdom promised to them has been postponed until a future time. Therefore the "GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM" is NOT God's message of good news for today, but rather the good news of how the Cross saves Sinners of all nationalities. This is God's message for today! (pp6-8).


The following books are recommended:

"Dictionary of the Gospel" by Thomas Bruscha
"Things That Differ" by C. R. Stam
"The Dispensations" by Hazel I. Brown

 

[101G]

Faith and works. scripture, 2 Timothy 1:9: "Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"

PCY.

 

[amadeus]

Uhhhh - the Apostles were the first leaders of the Church and everybody they ordained was given authority to ordain others (2 Tim. 2:2).
This is called Apostolic Succession and it began with the replacement of Judas, when they chose Matthias top take is office (Bishopric) in Acts 1.

I do not disagree with the scriptures, but the superimposed history of men according to men should always be questioned. I know you believe that the written history supports your view point and in one sense it does. But a real problem for individuals who have no direct communication line with God always is in the question of which men are they able to trust? You would presume that those in the hierarchy of your church are trustworthy. The real answer is that we can only really always trust God. I do believe in an unbroken scarlet thread running from Jesus up until today. It runs through some of those within as well as some without the organized churches of men. Deny it if you will but God works where He works in spite of men.

There is no "in fighting" between the Catholic Church and the Protestant sects. If you're not IN, you can't fight FROM within.
What is needed is for those who are separated from Christ's Church to come home to the Church.

You are not discerning the boundaries of the Church properly. Home, if God is in us, is also in us.

Eph. 4-5
". . . ONE Lord, ONE FAITH, ONE baptism; ONE God and Father of ALL, who is over all and through all and IN all.

Absolutely! There is only one! Thank God for eye salve!

 

[BreadOfLife]

(2 Tim. 2:2) says nothing of apostolic succession. It only encourages Timothy to commit to faithful men that which he was taught also.

Time for a Bible lesson . . .

Timothy was a Bishop, who Paul was advising about passing on his authority in 2 Tim. 2:2.

Oh great. Apostolic succession is the lineage of Judas? Please.

Time for another Bible lesson . . .

In Acts 1, the Apostles choose a person to take over for Judas. In verse 21, it says, "May another take his OFFICE."
The Greek word for "office" used here is EPISKOPAY or "Bishopric".

Apostolic Succession, my angry, anti-Catholic friend.
Do your homework before posting next time . . .

As to the 'in fighting', you are wrong again. The believers in the Roman Church and the believers in the Protestant Church, are all part of the Catholic Church. Thus the Protestant believers don't need to 'come home'. They are already there. They just refuse to be under the authority of the Roman Pontiff and Roman church.

Stranger

No - Catholics are Catholics and Protestants are Protestants.
They are Christians - but they are not all Catholic.

Do you have a dictionary handy - or are you just making this up as you go?

 

[BreadOfLife]

I do not disagree with the scriptures, but the superimposed history of men according to men should always be questioned. I know you believe that the written history supports your view point and in one sense it does. But a real problem for individuals who have no direct communication line with God always is in the question of which men are they able to trust? You would presume that those in the hierarchy of your church are trustworthy. The real answer is that we can only really always trust God. I do believe in an unbroken scarlet thread running from Jesus up until today. It runs through some of those within as well as some without the organized churches of men. Deny it if you will but God works where He works in spite of men.

I'm not trusting in men. I'm trusting in CHRIST, who is both man AND God.
He guaranteed that the gates of Hell would NOT prevail against His Church - and that the Holy Spirit would guide it to ALL truth (John 16:12-15).

And, in case you didn't know - the Bible is God-breathed (2 Tim. 3:16) and it is His Word that points us to Apostolic Succession. What it NEVER points to is Protestantism . . .

You are not discerning the boundaries of the Church properly. Home, if God is in us, is also in us.
No - you aren't discerning the boundaries properly.

ONE Church, ONE Faith, ONE Baptism - not tens of thousands of churches or tens of thousands of faiths.

Absolutely! There is only one! Thank God for eye salve!

Yes - ONE - not tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering sects teaching different doctrines.

"There are almost as many sects and beliefs as there are heads; this one will not admit baptism; that one rejects the Sacrament of the altar; another places another world between the present one and the day of judgment; some teach that Jesus Christ is not God. There is not an individual, however clownish he may be, who does not claim to be inspired by the Holy Ghost, and who does not put forth as prophecies his ravings and dreams."
- Martin Luther, Christians at Antwerp, 1525

 

[BreadOfLife]

Faith and works. scripture, 2 Timothy 1:9: "Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"

PCY.

And, as I already showed you guys - James 2:14-26 explicitly deals with what faith actually is - and is includes works.
Belief + works = Faith.

Remember - even the demons believe - but they aren't saved . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Hello BreadOfLife,
Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth
'Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the world of truth."(2 Tim. 2.15)
· Have you ever wondered why today's Christians can eat pork even though in the Old Testament men were forbidden to do so?
· Or, do you know people (or, perhaps yourself) who shun Christianity because Christians can't seem to agree on anything?
· And what about all those contractions in the Bible?
These are all valid concerns, but when a person begins to "rightly divide" the word of truth, as admonished by Paul to Timothy, these seeming difficulties and disputations are resolved. To "rightly divide" means that God has dealt with mankind at different times with different expectations from him. Although it is profitable for us to read the entire Bible (2Tim.3:16), it is imperative that we understand which part of the Bible is intended primarily for us in this time of Grace. The following excerpt from the book "Things That Differ" by C.R. Stam explains:

"If I should step inside a modern United States Post Office all would doubtless seem very confusing to me. But it would be a mistake to suggest piling all the mail neatly into one corner and handing it out promiscuously to all comers as some would do with the Bible. The postal employees must rightly divide the mail so that each person receives what is addressed to him. What seems like confusion to the novice is really a simplification of the work to be done in getting each person's private mail
to him.
It is granted that in the Bible even that which was addressed to those of other dispensations is given to us for our learning and profit, but we must not confuse this with our own private mail or make the mistake of carrying out instructions meant particularly for others.
While I am reading mail addressed personally to me, a friend may hand me, for my interest or information, mail addressed to him. His mail and mine may all prove informative and profitable, but I must still be careful not to confuse the two, expecting to receive things promised to him or carrying out instructions addressed to him.

Thus, all the Bible is for us, but it is not all addressed to us or written about us, and if we would really understand and enjoy it; if we would really know how to use it effectively in service for Christ, we must be careful always to note who is addressing whom, about what and when and why" (p.20).
In every dispensation, righteousness before God has always been achieved by believing what God has said and acting upon it. For example, the law required every male child to be circumcised, but that is not God's requirement today.
The LAW says: And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. Gen. 17:14.
But GRACE says: And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands...Col. 2:10,11.
There were also many dietary laws, and one in particular many people remember is the prohibition not to eat pork. But under the dispensation of Grace, we are not under those prohibitions.
The LAW says: And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: Ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass. Deut. 14:8
But GRACE says: For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 1Tim: 4:4
And the Sabbath day. In our day of grace, one day is like unto another. All are to be lived to the glory of God.
The Law says: Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy. But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God...Ex. 20:8,10.
But GRACE says: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days... Col.2:16,17
And because of the finished work of Jesus Christ at the Cross, we are no longer under any provision of the law for the forgiveness of sin.
The Law says: And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. (Matt. 6:12) For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Matt. 6:14,15.

But GRACE says: And ye be kind one to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you. Eph. 4.32.
The ultimate example of the difference between law and grace is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross. The law required annual blood sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins, which we now understand were but a foreshadow of the ultimate sacrifice Christ Jesus would make for the complete payment for all of our sins.
The Law says: The blood of bulls and goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifiethto the purifying of the flesh. Heb. 9:13
But GRACE says: Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. Heb. 9:12
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. (Romans 10:4)
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph. 2:8,9)
Where the dispensation of the law was entrusted to Moses (John 1:17), the dispensation of the grace of God was entrusted to Paul. Why is understanding this so important? Because it is by this message of grace, dispensed by Paul, that God will judge us. Remember, righteousness comes by believing what God says (i.e., what God is saying to us in this age of Grace) and acting on it. That is what faith is: believing God; trusting Him and His Word. Paul says in Romans 2:16:

In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to MY Gospel.
Paul tells us that he was appointed by God to be the Apostle to the Gentiles, "For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the Apostle of the Gentiles,..." (Ro. 11:13) and that his message was revealed to him directly by Jesus Christ:
But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached to of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by revelation of Jesus Christ. (Gal.1:11,12)
How then does Paul's gospel differ? Pastor Thomas Brusha, in his booklet "Dictionary of the Gospel" gives a clear explanation:
God promised in the Old Testament to set up a Kingdom here on earth through the nation Israel, in which Christ would reign as King! Christ was here; and the good news proclaimed was that the Kingdom was at hand. In Matthew 10:7 we find this to be the same gospel the Twelve Apostles were sent to preach. Also, in Matthew 10:5,6 we learn that this gospel was good news for the Nation of Israel. It is amazing, yet true, that after the Twelve Apostles had been preaching this gospel now, for some time, they still did not know about Christ's purpose to go to the Cross and die for their sins. We know this is true because when Christ began later to tell his Apostles that he was going to Jerusalem to die, they didn't believe him, nor did they understand what he was talking about. The reason being, they were preaching the good news about the Kingdom. They expected Christ to establish Israel's Kingdom and to take the throne as their King - see Matthew 16:21,22; Luke 18:31-34: and Luke 19:11.
How then, could the twelve Apostles have preached the same gospel the Apostle Paul later preached, when they did not know or understand anything about the Cross at that time? Paul preached :
"THE CROSS" and "CHRIST CRUCIFIED (1 Corinthians 1:18,23)
The point is this. The gospel that the Twelve Apostles preached during the earthly ministry of Christ is not the same gospel the Apostle Paul was sent to preach later. According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 the gospel Paul preached was the GOOD NEWS of the DEATH, BURIAL, and RESURRECTION of Christ FOR OUR SINS.
Paul tells us in Galatians 1:11,12 where his gospel originated. It was after the resurrection and ascension that the Lord Jesus Christ revealed to the Apostle Paul all that was accomplished on the Cross. In acts 20:24 Paul calls this message "THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD." In Galatians 2:1,2 we see that this gospel is intended for the Gentiles as well as the Jews; and in Galatians 2:6-10 we find that the Twelve Apostles learned of this gospel from Paul.
In this present age of "GRACE", God has set Israel as a nation aside, and the Kingdom promised to them has been postponed until a future time. Therefore the "GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM" is NOT God's message of good news for today, but rather the good news of how the Cross saves Sinners of all nationalities. This is God's message for today! (pp6-8).
The following books are recommended:
"Dictionary of the Gospel" by Thomas Bruscha
"Things That Differ" by C. R. Stam
"The Dispensations" by Hazel I. Brown

Thank you for that verbose cut and paste job - but, what does that have to do with our conversation?

YOU were making false claims about the Catholic Church not teaching you Scripture - and I proved you wrong - and THIS is your rebuttal??

 

[Stranger]

Time for a Bible lesson . . .

Timothy was a Bishop, who Paul was advising about passing on his authority in 2 Tim. 2:2.

Time for another Bible lesson . . .

In Acts 1, the Apostles choose a person to take over for Judas. In verse 21, it says, "May another take his OFFICE."
The Greek word for "office" used here is EPISKOPAY or "Bishopric".

Apostolic Succession, my angry, anti-Catholic friend.
Do your homework before posting next time . . .

No - Catholics are Catholics and Protestants are Protestants.
They are Christians - but they are not all Catholic.

Do you have a dictionary handy - or are you just making this up as you go?

(2 Tim. 2:2) says nothing of Timothy being a 'bishop'. And, Paul does not indicate any passing on of 'his' authority.

There is no apostolic succession in (Acts 1:20). That is simply a replacement. Big difference.

Those were really 'deep' Bible lessons you gave. It's still on my boots.

No, Romanists are Romanists. Protestants are Protestants. There are Christians in both groups. And they are all of the catholic Church.

Stranger

 

[101G]

And, as I already showed you guys - James 2:14-26 explicitly deals with what faith actually is - and is includes works.
Belief + works = Faith.

Remember - even the demons believe - but they aren't saved . . .

ERROR, Belief + Faith =Works. second, Belief +works = Fruit.

and James 2 is not speaking to the faithless, for they are saved.

PCY.

 

[BreadOfLife]

(2 Tim. 2:2) says nothing of Timothy being a 'bishop'. And, Paul does not indicate any passing on of 'his' authority.

There is no apostolic succession in (Acts 1:20). That is simply a replacement. Big difference.

Those were really 'deep' Bible lessons you gave. It's still on my boots.

No, Romanists are Romanists. Protestants are Protestants. There are Christians in both groups. And they are all of the catholic Church.

Stranger

WRONG.

Acts 1:20 is about Apostolic Succession. It's not about a simple "replacement".
It's about taking over an OFFICE - a Bishopric - not a missing puzzle piece. You can't just wish away "Episkopay" . . .

Secondly - Timothy was a Bishop of Ephesus: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Saint-Timothy
ust because it's not mentioned in that verse doesn't mean it wasn't so. In 1 Tim. 3 - Paul gave Timothy instructions on selecting Bishops - and ONLY a Bishop could do that.

Finally - your entire "Romanist" and "Roman" Catholic Church clap-trap is based in a deep ignorance of history.
We first hear of "Roman" Catholic Church when Henry VIII broke away to start his own version of the "Catholic" Church - the "Catholic" Church if England. "Roman" Catholic Church was simply his way using a pejorative term for the real Catholic Church.

The wonderful thing about debating historically-ignorant people like yourself is that you're so easily beatable.
History is there for ALL to see so, you're just arguing nonsense . . .