Baptism question that seems unbiblical

[BreadOfLife]

Actually the Catholic Church pretty much agreed with Luther on this doctrine by now. Here's a link to the "Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church.":

Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

Did you bother to actually READ this document??

The agreement was only in regards to the idea of salvation by faith. The Church indicates in the document that if by "faith" it is understood that works play a role - then it was agreed upon. You should read the document. The classic Protestant view of Sola Fide ius still considered heresy.

The Catholic Church ha never changed a single doctrine and never will.

 

[junobet]

Did you bother to actually READ this document??

The agreement was only in regards to the idea of salvation by faith. The Church indicates in the document that if by "faith" it is understood that works play a role - then it was agreed upon. You should read the document. The classic Protestant view of Sola Fide ius still considered heresy.

The Catholic Church ha never changed a single doctrine and never will.

I did read the document. It’s a fine example of how misunderstandings can be overcome by thoughtful and good-willed discussion. Alas, many here still prefer to stick to prejudice.

 

[Grams]

Eph. 2:
7
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11
Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

 

[amadeus]

The Catholic Church ha never changed a single doctrine and never will.

And likely this is why so many have had to come out of her over the centuries!

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

 

[Grams]

I went to the Catholic Church for over 50 years, and it was the same year after year.............

 

[BreadOfLife]

I did read the document. It’s a fine example of how misunderstandings can be overcome by thoughtful and good-willed discussion. Alas, many here still prefer to stick to prejudice.

No - apparently you didn't read the document if you think that the Catholic Church "changed" its position.
All the Church did was clarify the language. The position is still the same.

Read it again and match it up to the Catechism . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

And likely this is why so many have had to come out of her over the centuries!
"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

And likely the reason why so many have converted TO the Church.

Any sect that calls itself "Christian" and changes its doctrine is counterfeit.
God doesn't change and neither should Christian doctrine.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I went to the Catholic Church for over 50 years, and it was the same year after year.............

Were you expecting a new Gospel?
The individual should change - not Christ's Church.

 

[Grams]

I went to the Catholic Church for over 50 years, and it was the same year after year.............
Click to expand...
Were you expecting a new Gospel?
The individual should change - not Christ's Church.

"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." - G.K. Chesterton
Exposing anti-Catholic lies online for 14 years . . .

 

[Grams]

I went to the Catholic Church for over 50 years, and it was the same year after year.............
Click to expand...
Were you expecting a new Gospel?
The individual should change - not Christ's Church.

"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." - G.K. Chesterton
Exposing anti-Catholic lies online for 14 years . . .

------------------------------------

I was never told to read the bible ! Only use the prayer book and the rosary .........
What can I learn from that ??? I never felt like I was going to heaven........ even after going to confession..
How can a priest absolve my sins........... Only GOD the Father can do this..............

 

[amadeus]

And likely the reason why so many have converted TO the Church.

Any sect that calls itself "Christian" and changes its doctrine is counterfeit.
God doesn't change and neither should Christian doctrine.

Indeed, there are so many with false doctrines. If someone missed a turn and/or goes down a false pathway, will not God redirect the ones who are really hungry and thirsty for His righteousness?

Is it not sometimes necessary to change in order to line up with God?

 

[junobet]

No - apparently you didn't read the document if you think that the Catholic Church "changed" its position.
All the Church did was clarify the language. The position is still the same.

Read it again and match it up to the Catechism . . .

One doesn’t have to change one’s position in order to better understand the other’s position and to then realize that the two positions actually have more in common than one previously thought.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Indeed, there are so many with false doctrines. If someone missed a turn and/or goes down a false pathway, will not God redirect the ones who are really hungry and thirsty for His righteousness?

Is it not sometimes necessary to change in order to line up with God?

That may be true for the individual - but not the Church at large and definitely NOT doctrine.
Christ's Church does not go down the wrong path in its teachings. That would make Jesus a liar.

He guaranteed His Church that the Holy Spirit would guide it to ALL Truth (John 16:12-15).
Paul refers to Christ's Church as the Pillar and Foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15) - and that truth doesn't change.

 

[BreadOfLife]

One doesn’t have to change one’s position in order to better understand the other’s position and to then realize that the two positions actually have more in common than one previously thought.

READ the document.
There are portions in it where each side still adheres to certain things that the other doesn't.

It is NOT an "across the board" agreement.

 

[junobet]

READ the document.
There are portions in it where each side still adheres to certain things that the other doesn't.

It is NOT an "across the board" agreement.

That’s why I said they agreed “pretty much”, which implies they didn’t agree completely.

That there is any agreement at all seems to infuriate you. Why is that?

 

[BreadOfLife]

I was never told to read the bible ! Only use the prayer book and the rosary .........
What can I learn from that ??? I never felt like I was going to heaven........ even after going to confession..
How can a priest absolve my sins........... Only GOD the Father can do this..............

First of all - if you were actually a Catholic, you would have read the Bible during Mass.
In a 3 year cycle, virtually the ENTIRE Bible is read aloud.

Secondly - only God has the POWER to forgive sin. He can give that power to whomever He wishes.
On the night of his Resurrection, Jesus appeared to the Apostles:

John 20:21-23
(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."
And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

The fact that Jesus breathed on the Apostles when entrusted them with this ministry is highly significant because he doesn’t do this anywhere else in the New Testament. In fact, there are only two times in ALL of Scripture where God breathes on man:

The first is when he breathed life into Adam.
The second is here in John’s Gospel when he is giving them the power to forgive or retain sins in His name.

 

[BreadOfLife]

That’s why I said they agreed “pretty much”, which implies they didn’t agree completely.

That there is any agreement at all seems to infuriate you. Why is that?

Not at all.

\What I don't tolerate is when people make false statement like the one YOU made earlier.
In post #60, regarding Sola Fide, you said
"Actually the Catholic Church pretty much agreed with Luther on this doctrine by now. "

This is a false statement because you didn't read the document.
I'm not "infuriated" at all. I think this is a thing to celebrate.

 

[amadeus]

That may be true for the individual - but not the Church at large and definitely NOT doctrine.
Christ's Church does not go down the wrong path in its teachings. That would make Jesus a liar.

Yes, those within the True Church eventually will not miss a turn. With that I will agree. Of course, we will likely disagree on where and what the True Church is.

I may be a liar and you may be a liar, but Jesus is not.

He guaranteed His Church that the Holy Spirit would guide it to ALL Truth (John 16:12-15).

Again as you are following the scripture, I will agree with the bare bones of your statement, if not necessarily with any details you might insert. But, one word that you have inserted is "Church". The Bible versions I have checked use only a pronoun, "ye" or "you"... no "church".

Paul

refers to Christ's Church as the Pillar and Foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15) - and that truth doesn't change.

Truth does not change, but man's understanding of it does. This is where the increase from God should come into it... if it does.

 

[junobet]

Not at all.

\What I don't tolerate is when people make false statement like the one YOU made earlier.
In post #60, regarding Sola Fide, you said
"Actually the Catholic Church pretty much agreed with Luther on this doctrine by now. "

This is a false statement because you didn't read the document.
I'm not "infuriated" at all. I think this is a thing to celebrate.

See above. I still don’t think I made a false statement. I think you misunderstood the statement I made. Which probably is also what happened 500 years ago, with tragic consequences. However: yeah, I too think this declaration is a reason to celebrate.

P.S.: not that your writing style is my business, but you may want to go easy on the big fat letters if you don’t want to come across as infuriated.

 

[BreadOfLife]

See above. I still don’t think I made a false statement. I think you misunderstood the statement I made. Which probably is also what happened 500 years ago, with tragic consequences. However: yeah, I too think this declaration is a reason to celebrate.

P.S.: not that your writing style is my business, but you may want to go easy on the big fat letters if you don’t want to come across as infuriated.

Do you tell that to every other person on this forum who uses bolding and italics - or just me?

Anyway - your statement was false because we didn't "pretty much agree" with Luther's false doctrine.
We simply clarified our position.