BAPTISM

[BreadOfLife]

We do the will of God because we have received Jesus perpetually as Lord. Therefore we will abide in Him for ever.

When we believe in Jesus, He places His love in our hearts (Romans 5:5). We will "automatically" love our brother if we believe in Jesus and have received His Spirit by faith (see Galatians 3:14, Romans 5:5).

So if it is conditional on my loving my brother, it is, truly, only conditional on my having a living and saving faith in Jesus. There is none occasion of stumbling in me because...I believe in Jesus and have His love shed abroad in my heart as a result; which love does not manifest in word or in tongue only, but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:18).

Neither Gal. 3:14 nor Rom. 5:5 guarantee that WE will remain faithful.
The point is that GOD remains faithful to His promises - if WE do.
Sorry - but you need to address the 10 or so passages I presented instead of just giving me a few others.

ALL Scripture must harmonize or it is a lie.
HOW do you make these explanations HARMONIZE with the 10 that I have you??

And also, I abide in the light for ever because I have received Jesus as my Lord, so that I do the will of God perpetually for the rest of my life. No one can pluck me out of His hand.

Correct. NOBODY can pluck you out of God's hand.
Only YOU can reject Him. You won't be able to blame anybody else for walking away from Him - IF you so choose.

 

[BreadOfLife]

"for ever" means "for ever". And of course there is a practical aspect to being perfected for ever. If you have not received Jesus as your Lord and as your Saviour from sin, you will very likely find that you stumble and fall more often than not. But if He is your Lord; and if He has set you free from sin: I believe that you will find that He is the One who sustains you, because of that moment of surrender in which He gave you a new heart and a new spirit, in order that He might cause you to walk in His statutes and in his judgments.

No.
He ENABLES us to walk in His statutes. He does not CAUSE or COERCE us to do so.

Besides - you completely glossed over the most important word in the passage - "Epignosis". This indicates a full, experiential and relational knowledge of Christ - NOT just an intellectual knowledge (oida, gnosis). ONLY converted, born again, people have an Epignosis of Christ - and this passage talks about THEM losing their way.

 

[BreadOfLife]

As for me, it isn't against my will.

WRONG.
It was against your will EVERY time you sinned - and every time you WILL sin in the future.

Sin is rebellion against God - whether we admit it or not.

God is able to work into your heart the virtue of diligence if you ask Him to. As for me, He has done it in my heart.

Really??
So, you never sin?? Is that what you're telling me??

 

[justbyfaith]

ALL Scripture must harmonize or it is a lie.
HOW do you make these explanations HARMONIZE with the 10 that I have you??

It is perfectly harmonized in my mind, but I am not going to do your homework for you...if these scriptures are not harmonized in your mind, then you need to hash them out in your own thinking.

Correct. NOBODY can pluck you out of God's hand.
Only YOU can reject Him.

The fear of the LORD in my heart keeps me from rejecting Him, as per

Jer 32:38, And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
Jer 32:39, And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
Jer 32:40, And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Psa 19:9, The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.

And this fear will never cease to be a practical reality in my life according to the verses presented. It will last for ever, and will preserve me for ever.

 

[justbyfaith]

WRONG.
It was against your will EVERY time you sinned - and every time you WILL sin in the future.

Sin is rebellion against God - whether we admit it or not.

No, truly, it is not against my will for Him to keep me from falling and for Him to present me faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy. I have surrendered my will to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, and that has dealt with the rebellion that was in my heart. Having been justified by faith, I have peace with God through my Lord Jesus Christ...I am no longer at war with Him.

Really??
So, you never sin?? Is that what you're telling me??

I will say to you that I believe that 1 John 3:9, when it says that the one who is born of God doth not commit sin and cannot sin, may very well be using hyperbole to give the message that if a person is born again, their lives will radically change...that their direction has changed from being towards sin, death, and hell to being towards righteousness, life, and heaven. I wont't say that I never sin. However I think that the following scripture applies:

Pro 4:18, But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

 

[justbyfaith]

No.
He ENABLES us to walk in His statutes. He does not CAUSE or COERCE us to do so.

On the contrary:

Eze 36:25, Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26, A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27, And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Phl 2:13, For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Besides - you completely glossed over the most important word in the passage - "Epignosis".

That is your pet doctrine that has no basis in reality.

 

[BreadOfLife]

It is perfectly harmonized in my mind, but I am not going to do your homework for you...if these scriptures are not harmonized in your mind, then you need to hash them out in your own thinking.

The fear of the LORD in my heart keeps me from rejecting Him, as per

Jer 32:38, And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
Jer 32:39, And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
Jer 32:40, And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
Psa 19:9, The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.

And this fear will never cease to be a practical reality in my life according to the verses presented. It will last for ever, and will preserve me for ever.

So I ask you AGAIN - how does this harmonize with verses like Heb. 10:26-27 and 2 Pet. 2:20-22 that speak about converted, born again Christians with an EPIGNOSIS of Christ in danger of falling away and being eternally LOST??

 

[BreadOfLife]

On the contrary:

Eze 36:25, Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26, A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27, And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Phl 2:13, For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
That is your pet doctrine that has no basis in reality.

This is MY pet doctrine and has NO basis in reality??
WHY would you make this kind of ignorant, accusatory statement??

Here is a list of PROTESTANT scholarship on the importance of the meaning of the word "Epignosis":

Richard Chenevix Trench notes, “In comparing epignosis with gnosis, the “epi” must be regarded as an intensive use of a preposition that gives the compound word a greater strength than the simple word alone possesses” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).
Quoting Culverwell, he writes, “Epignosis and gnosis differ. Epignosis is the complete comprehension after the first knowledge (gnosin) of a matter. It is bringing me better acquainted with a thing I knew before; a more exact viewing of an object that I saw before afar off. That little portion of knowledge which we had here shall be much improved, our eye shall be raised to see the things more strongly and clearly” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).

He goes on to say on the same page, “All Paul’s uses of epignosis justify and bear out this distinction. This same intensive use of epignosis is confirmed by similar passages in the New Testament and in the Septuagint. It also was recognized by the Greek fathers. Thus Chrysostom stated: ‘You knew (egnote), but it is necessary to know thoroughly (epignonai).”

J.B. Lightfoot commenting on epignosis, notes, “The compound epignosis is an advance upon gnosis, denoting a larger and more thorough knowledge...Hence also epignosis is used especially of the knowledge of God and of Christ, as being the perfection of knowledge” (St. Paul’s Epistles to the Colossians and Philemon, page 138).

Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, “epignosis, akin to A, No. 3, denotes "exact or full knowledge, discernment, recognition,"

The New Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon (page 237):
1. Precise and correct knowledge
2. Knowledge of things ethical and divine
3. Of God, especially knowledge of His holy will and of the blessings which He has bestowed and constantly bestows on men through Christ
4. Of Christ, i.e., the true knowledge of Christ’s nature, dignity, benefits
5. Of God and Christ, i.e., to keep the knowledge of the one true God which has illumined the soul

Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, volume 2, page 25:
1. Knowledge as recognition of the will of God that is effective in the conduct of the one who knows God
2. Christian faith

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, truly, it is not against my will for Him to keep me from falling and for Him to present me faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy. I have surrendered my will to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, and that has dealt with the rebellion that was in my heart. Having been justified by faith, I have peace with God through my Lord Jesus Christ...I am no longer at war with Him.

I will say to you that I believe that 1 John 3:9, when it says that the one who is born of God doth not commit sin and cannot sin, may very well be using hyperbole to give the message that if a person is born again, their lives will radically change...that their direction has changed from being towards sin, death, and hell to being towards righteousness, life, and heaven. I wont't say that I never sin. However I think that the following scripture applies:

Pro 4:18, But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

So, whenever you DO sin - which is something that we ALL do - you are rebelling against God at that moment, so you are NOT constantly enduring in faith.
That's my WHOLE point . . .

 

[justbyfaith]

So, whenever you DO sin - which is something that we ALL do - you are rebelling against God at that moment, so you are NOT constantly enduring in faith.
That's my WHOLE point . . .

So then, when YOU sin, you are not enduring in the faith...are you therefore outside of what the Bible calls salvation?

 

[justbyfaith]

Concerning Epignosis...

It should be clear from Luke 8:13 that there is a person who believes for a while and then falls away.

Nevertheless John 6:47 tells us that the one who believes on Jesus has "everlasting" life.

So, I ask, how did the person who believed for a while fall away. Wasn't his life supposed to be everlasting?

There are two possible solutions:

1) a person can fall away and still have the life of God in them. I reject this as it is preposterous.

2) there are two types of faith in the Bible identified by the same word. One is a mental assent to the tenets of the gospel, and qualifies as faith of the mind; and it is usually a nominal, lukewarm, or shallow faith. The other is a heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10)...and this is the only faith that endures to the end. It is this type of faith that lays hold of, and is the recipient of, such promises in the Bible as John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:27-30, Hebrews 13:5, Matthew 28:20, 1 John 2:17.

Now the definition of the Greek word epignosis might primarily refer to the second type of faith; however the definition does not exclude the first type: that of mental assent. It is a sure and stedfast belief that the gospel is a reality...and yet if it is only in the mind, and not a reality in the heart, it is mere mental assent...and the person is ten inches away from salvation. Their faith can be identified as epignosis...for the definition of epignosis does not exclude their faith as being epignosis...it is still not a heart epignosis...and the key to a faith that endures is that a faith that endures is always of the heart...a faith that is only of the mind will never endure unless the reality trickles down to the heart, even if that faith of the mind is very concrete.

I am saying these things understanding that you remember previous conversations between us, one post of which I copied out the definition of epignosis as it is given in the Strong's Concordance. And I am stating my claims based on my memory of that definition. If you want me to type it again I certainly can...just tell me what verses contain that Greek word so that I can find it again in my Strong's.

 

[justbyfaith]

So I ask you AGAIN - how does this harmonize with verses like Heb. 10:26-27 and 2 Pet. 2:20-22 that speak about converted, born again Christians with an EPIGNOSIS of Christ in danger of falling away and being eternally LOST??

I will leave you to argue with the Lord about that...now that you know the verses that contradict your opinion, it is up to you to reconcile them for the sake of your own faith's survival.

Perhaps, if you cannot reconcile them, you will fall away, since you believe that that is a possibility...

 

[BreadOfLife]

So then, when YOU sin, you are not enduring in the faith...are you therefore outside of what the Bible calls salvation?

Not necessarily.

The Bible speaks of varying degrees of sin. There is sin, which damages our relationship with God - and there is sin that causes spiritual death (1 John 5:16). We call this Mortal sin. Less serious sin is referred to as Venial sin (1 John 5:17).

If I am in a state of mortal sin - I am outside of what would be considered salvation until I repent of it and confess it to the Church (John 20:21-23, 2 Cor. 5:18-20).

 

[BreadOfLife]

Concerning Epignosis...
It should be clear from Luke 8:13 that there is a person who believes for a while and then falls away.
Nevertheless John 6:47 tells us that the one who believes on Jesus has "everlasting" life.
So, I ask, how did the person who believed for a while fall away. Wasn't his life supposed to be everlasting?
There are two possible solutions:

1) a person can fall away and still have the life of God in them. I reject this as it is preposterous.

2) there are two types of faith in the Bible identified by the same word. One is a mental assent to the tenets of the gospel, and qualifies as faith of the mind; and it is usually a nominal, lukewarm, or shallow faith. The other is a heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10)...and this is the only faith that endures to the end. It is this type of faith that lays hold of, and is the recipient of, such promises in the Bible as John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:27-30, Hebrews 13:5, Matthew 28:20, 1 John 2:17.

Now the definition of the Greek word epignosis might primarily refer to the second type of faith; however the definition does not exclude the first type: that of mental assent. It is a sure and stedfast belief that the gospel is a reality...and yet if it is only in the mind, and not a reality in the heart, it is mere mental assent...and the person is ten inches away from salvation. Their faith can be identified as epignosis...for the definition of epignosis does not exclude their faith as being epignosis...it is still not a heart epignosis...and the key to a faith that endures is that a faith that endures is always of the heart...a faith that is only of the mind will never endure unless the reality trickles down to the heart, even if that faith of the mind is very concrete.

I am saying these things understanding that you remember previous conversations between us, one post of which I copied out the definition of epignosis as it is given in the Strong's Concordance. And I am stating my claims based on my memory of that definition. If you want me to type it again I certainly can...just tell me what verses contain that Greek word so that I can find it again in my Strong's.

As the Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, volume 2, page 25 I presented states - Epignosis is actually defined as "Christian faith".

Also - The New Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon (page 237) calls it "Precise and correct knowledge" - "which has illumined the soul".

This is NOT just mental assent - but a deep, FULL and experiential knowledge - like the knowledge a spouse has.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I will leave you to argue with the Lord about that...now that you know the verses that contradict your opinion, it is up to you to reconcile them for the sake of your own faith's survival.

Perhaps, if you cannot reconcile them, you will fall away, since you believe that that is a possibility...

I already HAVE addressed the verses YOU gave me - and they are conditional on our cooperation.
That's what I've been saying all along. It is YOU who never addressed the verse that I presented.

There is NO guarantee of Eternal Security without our cooperation with God's grace - and Scripture is blindingly clear about this.

 

[justbyfaith]

There is NO guarantee of Eternal Security without our cooperation with God's grace

And yet, even within your statement, it provides for the fact that there is a guarantee somewhere...all we have to do is lay hold of it.

I believe that I have laid hold of it...so if you are trying to convince me that I personally can lose my salvation, you are barking up the wrong tree.

 

[justbyfaith]

As the Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, volume 2, page 25 I presented states - Epignosis is actually defined as "Christian faith".

Also - The New Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon (page 237) calls it "Precise and correct knowledge" - "which has illumined the soul".

This is NOT just mental assent - but a deep, FULL and experiential knowledge - like the knowledge a spouse has.

Mental assent is not excluded from the definition of epignosis in the Strong's, in possibility.

 

[justbyfaith]

Not necessarily.

The Bible speaks of varying degrees of sin. There is sin, which damages our relationship with God - and there is sin that causes spiritual death (1 John 5:16). We call this Mortal sin. Less serious sin is referred to as Venial sin (1 John 5:17).

If I am in a state of mortal sin - I am outside of what would be considered salvation until I repent of it and confess it to the Church (John 20:21-23, 2 Cor. 5:18-20).

A mortal sin would place you outside of Christ for ever...the apostle John exhorts us not to even pray for the one who has committed it.

As such, mortal sin is defined in the following verses:

Mat 12:31, Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Mar 3:28, Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mar 3:29, But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Some Bible teachers have identified blasphemy of the Holy Ghost as rejection of Jesus Christ and the propitiation that He offers unto the day of one's death...and I am inclined to agree with them.

 

[BreadOfLife]

A mortal sin would place you outside of Christ for ever...the apostle John exhorts us not to even pray for the one who has committed it.

As such, mortal sin is defined in the following verses:

Mat 12:31, Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Mar 3:28, Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mar 3:29, But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Some Bible teachers have identified blasphemy of the Holy Ghost as rejection of Jesus Christ and the propitiation that He offers unto the day of one's death...and I am inclined to agree with them.

The sin against the Holy Spirit is FINAL impenitence.
ALL sin is forgivable until we die - mortal AND venial. A mortal sin does NOT place you outside of Christ forever if it is repented of and confessed to the Church (John 20:21-23).

Some sins (venial) are forgivable AFTER death. Matt. 12:32 states, “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come”, which indicates that there is purification after death for some. Matt. 18:32-35 and Luke 12:58-59 are additional verses that support this doctrine.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Mental assent is not excluded from the definition of epignosis in the Strong's, in possibility.

According to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance - it is rendered as:
From epignosko; recognition, i.e. (by implication) full discernment, acknowledgement -- (ac-)knowledge(-ing, - ment).

Epignosis and Gnosis are NOT the same thing, no matter HOW hard you try to rationalize it.
Gnosis ad Oida refer to general knowledge or mental assent.
Epignosis refers to a full, intimate, experiential knowledge - as a spouse has for their partner.