"Before Abraham Was, I AM"

[JustMe]

Good, but folks throughout history bowed a knee to any and all kings. The real question is: Do you worship, praise, love and thank Jesus as you would our Father?
 Mayt. 2:11: Magi "fell down and worshiped Him" (Jesus as a baby).
 Matt. 28:17: After resurrection, "they worshiped Him, but some doubted".
 John 8:38: The healed blind man says, "Lord, I believe," and worships Jesus; Jesus accepts it.
 Revelation 5:13: All creation worships "Him who sits on the throne and the Lamb"
John 5:23: "That all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him".
Hebrews 1:6: The Father says, "Let all the angels of God worship him".

>>> Out Father honors and calls the Son God<<<

"But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God [Theos], is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom" Heb. 1:8

Getting closer to the truth there Ronald...

Let me post a commentary that I posted, I believe from one of my threads more recently, and I just add the remarks I make in this thread from this am, at the end. It does cover the word 'worship' and why some scripture translators made it unnecessarily complicated.

And for the last item, of the 'throne of God' that his Son also shares, I also wrote a piece on that as well, well actually many times in the past on various forums. Hint, beside showing the one verse 8, add some other verses below it and view it all together to get some of the much needed context.

The worship of Yeshua by the angels​

This tune is called or about ' Jesus is worshipped by angels.' So now the sky must fall and everything changes. Not at all. It's just a case of ignorance and laziness of those not wanting to really understand the subject, especially if their core belief system depends upon it and the real truth of it will be unveiled in a quite different light.

This is about the amazing and yet self-inflicted difficultly in understanding the word ‘worship’ as used in the Bible.

Many have found scripture that says we worship God and even Yeshua, his Son, and therefore the son is at least divine if not God aswell. They hang their hats on the English translated word from Hebrew and Greek words for ‘worship’ considered exclusive acts only for God and Yeshua.

The association with the word worship for both God and his Son creates unnecessary faulty logic, that this word worship is the link to Yeshua’s divinity and being God.

The Hebrew word shachah and the Greek word proskuneo account for more than 80% of the appearances of the word “worship” in most English versions of the Bible, so these two words are at the center of attention.

Both of these words mean ‘to bow down” and similar meaning words, of a few.

For the Hebrew word shachah, it means ‘bowing down’ or’ prostrating oneself’ usually before a human of superior rank or recognition or God.

For the Greek word proskuneo, ‘pros’ means towards and ‘kuneo’ means to kiss. It means to literally kiss the hand towards someone as a token of reverence.

Examples: Lot worshipped the strangers who came to Sodom. He spread out to the ground to show his respect for them.(Gen 19:1). Moses worshipped his father-in-law whom he respected and honored (Ex 18:7). There are many more examples where all mean to honor another person, he would bow down or fall down (worship) before them. That was the custom, that was the culture. And this custom of common worship of this visible outward act between other people revealed the inner heart of respect and honor.

So why do we use the English word ‘worship’ at all in the Bible? The English origin of the word means worthiness for the word ‘weorthscipe.’ They are worthy to be worshipped.

As the background has now been set, now here’s why there’s poison in this soup. There are many variations of these Hebrew and Geek words when translated in English text of the bible. Translators have created their own logic. Many translators in many versions of the Bible, when associated between one person to another, translate the words consistently as “bow down” or of similar language. And when these two words of the Hebrew and Greek are used before God or his Son, they, nearly all prefer using these words as ‘worship.’ So then many misunderstand the word ‘worship’ today. They then say that Yeshua must be God because he is worshipped as God. And yet when God alone is the subject of worship, and his Son truly worships his Father, the translators were careful not to use the word ‘worship.’ They uses a phrase of ‘bowing down’ or similar language as if the Son was the same God as his Father (Matt 26:39). There is definitely a real bias afoot here.

Now it is obvious that not only God or Jesus are worshipped, but many men are also worshipped as well. People worshipping Jesus does not make him God any more than Abraham bowing down before the Hittites makes them God.

The translators need to be consistent within all scripture and where the Greek and Hebrew is used: either all translated as 'worship' or all translated into English as 'bowing down' or something of the same effect.

Anyone worthy or deserving honor and respect and also obedience, given by a sincere heart should be worshipped.

And then it is appropriate for Yeshua to also be worshipped, as God provided and commanded it to all his creation for his Son, for he is worthy. and ultimately for his Father's own glory.

And this study shows again that Yeshua, being worshipped (and many today do not even bow down or collapse to the ground either), really means showing honor and respect and obedience as to a King, or Son of God, or a man worthy of such an act.

And it still does not make Yeshua divine or God either, as it would be an appropriate chorus line for this tune.


----------------------------------------------
Yes, genuine Christians bow to our lord Yeshua FOR the glory of God, and as commanded by our Father, the same one God.

If one bows down and 'worships' Yeshua for another reason, say because they think he is God, then it's an empty and useless act that does not glorify God. It brings dishonor and even contempt to the Father, who is God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Something that came to me that blew my socks off:

"Before Abraham Was, I AM" (Jn.8:58)

I had never understood this but suddenly tonight I believe the meaning came to me. Why did Jesus say I AM? Why didn't he just say I was? I think the answer is that God inhabits eternity. He cannot say I was, or I will be as God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He never changes. God is outside time!

You got it!
It means
I WAS
I AM
I WILL BE

No time with God.
I AM ...no beginning, no end.

So nice when those lights go on.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You got it!
It means
I WAS
I AM
I WILL BE

And if Jesus, in answering his accusers, said....
“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw and was glad.” Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” (John 8:58 NKJV)

If his response can mean any of those definitions, which one fits the past tense answer that Jesus gave?
Correctly, it can only be “I was”.....(no capital letters necessary) meaning simply that he existed before Abraham. The Jews were asking about his age, not his deity.

No time with God.
I AM ...no beginning, no end.

This is confusing...”no time with God”?
John 1:1....”The Word was with God”...repeated in v2...”He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.” (NKJV)

So what “beginning” is this, if God had no “beginning”? There are two individuals here....one was used by the other to produce the entirety of creation. The Father used the Son as it says....”all things were made through” the Son. The Son is not “the Creator” but the facilitator of creation.

So nice when those lights go on.

What “light” is it when it’s not the truth?
Jesus warned..... “If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!” (Matt 6:23 NKJV)
Is there another source of “light” that is not what the majority imagine?
Matt 7:13-14...
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide the gate and broad the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow the gate and difficult the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.” (NKJV)

There is a “light at the end of the tunnel”...but is it a train? If Jesus warns us about these things, and the devil is driving that train, shouldn’t we be aware of a deceptive “light” that is guiding the majority down the wrong path? It’s not the “many” who see the inconvenient truth, but the “few”. Why do you suppose that is?

The devil has always had the majority, who buy what he is selling. Why? Because he can make the truth seem like a lie......look what he did with the Jews! Through his minions, he made the perfect Son of God look like a charlatan! And he did that to those who thought they they were worshipping the true God.

How many of us have been scammed when we bought something online that we thought would be useful, trusting that once we paid for it, it would be delivered? Some scammers imitate the big brand sellers with AI, so it looks authentic, but it never was....is the devil a trusted seller? He makes himself look like one.

Do the deceived know that they are being conned? Usually not until they have been parted from their money. What “currency” is the devil after? Can we ever deny how successful he has been in turning the human race against the true God by inventing counterfeits?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Getting closer to the truth there Ronald...

Let me post a commentary that I posted, I believe from one of my threads more recently, and I just add the remarks I make in this thread from this am, at the end. It does cover the word 'worship' and why some scripture translators made it unnecessarily complicated.

And for the last item, of the 'throne of God' that his Son also shares, I also wrote a piece on that as well, well actually many times in the past on various forums. Hint, beside showing the one verse 8, add some other verses below it and view it all together to get some of the much needed context.

The worship of Yeshua by the angels​

This tune is called or about ' Jesus is worshipped by angels.' So now the sky must fall and everything changes. Not at all. It's just a case of ignorance and laziness of those not wanting to really understand the subject, especially if their core belief system depends upon it and the real truth of it will be unveiled in a quite different light.

This is about the amazing and yet self-inflicted difficultly in understanding the word ‘worship’ as used in the Bible.

Many have found scripture that says we worship God and even Yeshua, his Son, and therefore the son is at least divine if not God aswell. They hang their hats on the English translated word from Hebrew and Greek words for ‘worship’ considered exclusive acts only for God and Yeshua.

The association with the word worship for both God and his Son creates unnecessary faulty logic, that this word worship is the link to Yeshua’s divinity and being God.

The Hebrew word shachah and the Greek word proskuneo account for more than 80% of the appearances of the word “worship” in most English versions of the Bible, so these two words are at the center of attention.

Both of these words mean ‘to bow down” and similar meaning words, of a few.

For the Hebrew word shachah, it means ‘bowing down’ or’ prostrating oneself’ usually before a human of superior rank or recognition or God.

For the Greek word proskuneo, ‘pros’ means towards and ‘kuneo’ means to kiss. It means to literally kiss the hand towards someone as a token of reverence.

Examples: Lot worshipped the strangers who came to Sodom. He spread out to the ground to show his respect for them.(Gen 19:1). Moses worshipped his father-in-law whom he respected and honored (Ex 18:7). There are many more examples where all mean to honor another person, he would bow down or fall down (worship) before them. That was the custom, that was the culture. And this custom of common worship of this visible outward act between other people revealed the inner heart of respect and honor.

So why do we use the English word ‘worship’ at all in the Bible? The English origin of the word means worthiness for the word ‘weorthscipe.’ They are worthy to be worshipped.

As the background has now been set, now here’s why there’s poison in this soup. There are many variations of these Hebrew and Geek words when translated in English text of the bible. Translators have created their own logic. Many translators in many versions of the Bible, when associated between one person to another, translate the words consistently as “bow down” or of similar language. And when these two words of the Hebrew and Greek are used before God or his Son, they, nearly all prefer using these words as ‘worship.’ So then many misunderstand the word ‘worship’ today. They then say that Yeshua must be God because he is worshipped as God. And yet when God alone is the subject of worship, and his Son truly worships his Father, the translators were careful not to use the word ‘worship.’ They uses a phrase of ‘bowing down’ or similar language as if the Son was the same God as his Father (Matt 26:39). There is definitely a real bias afoot here.

Now it is obvious that not only God or Jesus are worshipped, but many men are also worshipped as well. People worshipping Jesus does not make him God any more than Abraham bowing down before the Hittites makes them God.

The translators need to be consistent within all scripture and where the Greek and Hebrew is used: either all translated as 'worship' or all translated into English as 'bowing down' or something of the same effect.

Anyone worthy or deserving honor and respect and also obedience, given by a sincere heart should be worshipped.

And then it is appropriate for Yeshua to also be worshipped, as God provided and commanded it to all his creation for his Son, for he is worthy. and ultimately for his Father's own glory.

And this study shows again that Yeshua, being worshipped (and many today do not even bow down or collapse to the ground either), really means showing honor and respect and obedience as to a King, or Son of God, or a man worthy of such an act.

And it still does not make Yeshua divine or God either, as it would be an appropriate chorus line for this tune.


----------------------------------------------
Yes, genuine Christians bow to our lord Yeshua FOR the glory of God, and as commanded by our Father, the same one God.

If one bows down and 'worships' Yeshua for another reason, say because they think he is God, then it's an empty and useless act that does not glorify God. It brings dishonor and even contempt to the Father, who is God.

Oh brother, did you really have to go through all that. You are avoiding the core meaning which is the feeling and/or expression of reverence and adoration for God. And the Father told the angels and all of us to worship Jesus.

Yes, people worship a lot of things, including themselves. It's usually called idolatry. But the Bible equates worship of the Father alongside worship of the Son.

HOW DO YOU WORSHIP GOD? You pray to the Lord God , work unto the Lord, live to please the Lord, give thanks to the Lord, depend on the Lord. Love others in obedience to His will. We confess our sins to the Lord. He knows every one of them. Why? Because the Lord died for our sins and washed them away. He gave you eternal Life, because He is Life, He is Love, He is Truth, He is all that is good, He is the AUTHOR or our Faith, He is the Creator.
Jesus is LORD to me and is worthy for that reverence above. But you could not make those above claims. The Bible says we are to worship Him that way, with all that reverence and love in our hearts.

 

[TazzJazz]

But the Bible equates worship of the Father alongside worship of the Son.

Where in Scripture does it say this?

 

[GodsGrace]

And if Jesus, in answering his accusers, said....
“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw and was glad.” Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” (John 8:58 NKJV)

If his response can mean any of those definitions, which one fit the past tense answer that Jesus gave?
Correctly, it can only be “I was”.....(no capital letters necessary) meaning simply that he existed before Abraham. The Jews were asking about his age, not his deity.

Actually, I WAS has a very specific meaning in Greek...
so I don't really know why you're disagreeing with a language.

This is confusing...”no time with God”?
John 1:1....”The Word was with God”...repeated in v2...”He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.” (NKJV)

So what “beginning” is this, if God had no “beginning”? There are two individuals here....one was used by the other to produce the entirety of creation. The Father used the Son as it says....”all things were made through” the Son. The Son is not “the Creator” but the facilitator of creation.

Which beginning?
Does God have a beginning?
Maybe it's a way of speaking between finite beings?

What “light” is it when it’s not the truth?
Jesus warned..... “If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!” (Matt 6:23 NKJV)
Is there another source of “light” that is not what the majority imagine?
Matt 7:13-14...
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide the gate and broad the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow the gate and difficult the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.” (NKJV)

I'll let God be the judge of who has the light and who does not.
I'll let God be the judge of who is on the narrow path and who is not.

There is a “light at the end of the tunnel”...but is it a train? If Jesus warns us about these things, and the devil is driving that train, shouldn’t we be aware of a deceptive “light” that is guiding the majority down the wrong path? It’s not the “many” who see the inconvenient truth, but the “few”. Why do you suppose that is?

The devil has always had the majority, who buy what he is selling. Why? Because he can make the truth seem like a lie......look what he did with the Jews! Through his minions, he made the perfect Son of God look like a charlatan! And he did that to those who thought they they were worshipping the true God.

How many of us have been scammed when we bought something online that we thought would be useful, trusting that once we paid for it, it would be delivered? Some scammers imitate the big brand sellers with AI, so it looks authentic, but it never was....is the devil a trusted seller? He makes himself look like one.

Do the deceived know that they are being conned? Usually not until they have been parted from their money. What “currency” is the devil after? Can we ever deny how successful he has been in turning the human race against the true God by inventing counterfeits?

I have to agree.
The new churches/denominations sure are following teachings that have never been in the church from the beginning.
The devil certainly has invaded the true church and caused many to fall away...just like Paul said about the end times...
many falling away due to teachings of demons.

1 Timothy 4:1
1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

 

[keithr]

It is not flesh that saves us, it is God having come in the form of sinful flesh to die on the cross shedding His Blood for us who have believed on Jesus Christ and The Father that saves us.

God did not come in human form; He sent His Son instead. It's so simple to understand; it's not hidden. Just read carefully what the Scriptures say and don't make wrong assumptions based on what other people have told you.

John 3:16 UASV+

(16) For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, in order that whoever believes in him will not be destroyed but have eternal life.​

 

[Davy]

I'm not interested in what you wrote, of one of many who cannot add anything beyond stating scripture verses and other one-liners. You have not a clue in what they all mean, as your endless confusing eschatological explanations that go nowhere.

And what may I ask is your outrageous highlighted last paragraph all about? Have you gone completely mad.

I would not continue to embarrass myself if I were you. Continue with this tripe, this type of posting in the future, this indecipherable, unintelligible, incomprehensible, indiscernible scribble and I will respond as a firm parent would to a spoiled and willful child.

You are not interested in what I QUOTED FROM BIBLE SCRIPTURE is what you mean to say.

Men's CULTS like what you follow, that deny Jesus of Nazareth as Immanuel (God with us) are just that, CULTS.

Matt 1:21-23
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins.

22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
KJV

 

[Davy]

Where in Scripture does it say this?

See Post #99

 

[bdavidc]

And why are you still very much confused?

"....describe His incarnate mission, not a denial of His divine nature..." where in scripture does it speak this strange beast of text? You are fantasizing again... Incarnate mission, indeed.

No I don’t think it is confusing. I simply take ALL of Scripture together.

The Bible says that the Word was God and also was made flesh ~John 1:1; ~John 1:14. It says that Christ existed in the form of God and then took the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men ~Philippians 2:6–7. While on earth Jesus submitted to the Father’s will ~John 6: 38 and the same Scripture calls Him God, receives His worship, and gives Him an eternal throne ~John 20:28; ~Hebrews 1:8; ~Colossians 2:9.

Submission texts do not negate deity texts. Scripture teaches both. Denying either is the mistake.

 

[Davy]

God did not come in human form; He sent His Son instead. It's so simple to understand; it's not hidden. Just read carefully what the Scriptures say and don't make wrong assumptions based on what other people have told you.

John 3:16 UASV+

(16) For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, in order that whoever believes in him will not be destroyed but have eternal life.​

Anyone can simply pick'n'choose Bible Scripture while leaving other Bible Scriptures out, like you are doing. That's a clear sign of one following a CULT devised by men's doctrines.

Matt 1:21-23
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins.
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
KJV

And note that above in red is The Father speaking in Isaiah 7:14. It is The New Testament quoting The Old Testament prophecy.

You also need a lesson in Hebrews 1 about Jesus of Nazareth as Immanuel (God with us)...

Heb 1:1-8
1 God, Who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, Whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by Whom also He made the worlds;

The Father "made the worlds" by His Son Jesus Christ?? YES! That means you have to THINK! Just how old is The Son, since The Father made the worlds through The Son?? Can your brain grasp what that means? It means Jesus EXISTED PRIOR to His being born in the flesh.


So you CANNOT use FLESH as an excuse for not admitting The Son of God being part of The Godhead. (Anyone can read Genesis 18 and John 8:56-58 where Abraham met Jesus back in Old Testament times. The Genesis 18 example just does not spell out the name 'Jesus' there for simpletons that cannot think for themselves.)

3 Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Jesus of Nazareth is the "brightness of His glory", meaning The Father's glory, and Jesus is "the express image of His person", meaning the express Image of The Father, and Jesus upholds ALL THINGS by the word of His power. And only The Son was born in the flesh to die on the cross to purge the sins of those who would believe, The Father having been excluded in that.

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as He hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

The above verse the Jehovah's Witness Cult tries to claim The Father created The Christ, like an angel. No, that is about Jesus' flesh body born through woman's womb.

Christ's Spirit was NEVER created, otherwise He would never have been WITH The Father when ALL things were created through Christ in the beginning! Thus the above verse is pointing to Christ taking on sinful flesh to be the perfect sacrifice for sin for one and all time. An ordinary flesh man cannot do that.

5 For unto which of the angels said He at any time, "Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten Thee?" And again, "I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son?"
6 And again, when He bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, He saith, "And let all the angels of God worship Him."

7 And of the angels He saith, "Who maketh His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire."

8 But unto the Son He saith, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of Thy kingdom."
KJV

Did you miss that above Scripture?? Is it not in your New Testament Bible? Or do you even have... a Bible with The New Testament in it??


Lord Jesus even showed the blind Pharisees about His PREVIOUS EXISTENCE as The Christ PRIOR to His being born in the flesh through Mary's womb...

Matt 22:41-46
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, "What think ye of Christ? whose son is he?" They say unto Him, "The Son of David."

43 He saith unto them, "How then doth David in spirit call Him Lord, saying,

44 The LORD said unto my Lord, 'Sit Thou on My right hand, till I make Thine enemies Thy footstool?'

45 If David then call Him Lord, how is He his son?"

46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.
KJV


How is it that Jesus Christ being a flesh descendant of David, and called "The Son of David", that David in spirit called Jesus "my Lord"? That is what Jesus is asking those Pharisees who sought to trap Him.

The answer is simple, IF... one believes The Bible Scriptures as written...

The Father told David that He would raise up a Righteous Branch to sit upon David's earthly throne forever, that being Jesus Christ Who is to inherit David's earthly throne when He returns in the future at His 2nd coming (Psalms 2:6-12; Psalms 72:1-19; Isaiah 9:6-7; Jeremiah 23:5; Jeremiah 33:14-15; Amos 9:11-12; Micah 5:2; Acts 2:30; Matthew 19:28).

I like that Micah 2:5 example showing Jesus Christ having existed from "everlasting" so I'll quote it here...

Mic 5:2
2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto Me That is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
KJV

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Where in Scripture does it say this?

You should always read some previous posts in the thread instead if just jumping in there. Usually the answer to your question was already presented.
Here In post #99, reveal the truth:

Revelation 5:13: All creation worships "Him (Father) who sits on the throne and the Lamb".
John 5:23: "That all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him".
Hebrews 1:6: The Father says, "Let all the angels of God worship him".

>>> Out Father honors and calls the Son God<<<

"But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God [Theos], is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom" Heb. 1:8

 

[JustMe]

You are not interested in what I QUOTED FROM BIBLE SCRIPTURE is what you mean to say.

Men's CULTS like what you follow, that deny Jesus of Nazareth as Immanuel (God with us) are just that, CULTS.

Matt 1:21-23
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins.

22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
KJV

Son, let me take this chance to teach you something today that you might not have discovered yet with the Spirit of God. Thank you for allowing me to speak once again.

The topic is the term “Immanuel,” which you obviously know nothing about. It is fitting at this time of year that some think of the Son of God and His Father, regardless of whether He was truly born this part of the year or in the springtime. One cannot simply assume that if the name Emmanuel is linked to Yeshua, it means He is God. In Hebrew, it means in English, 'God (be)(is) with us.'

Emmanuel or Immanuel appears in four places in scripture: Isaiah 7:14, 8:8, 10, and Matthew 1:23.

(Isa 7:14) Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin will conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

(Isa 8:8) It will sweep onward into Judah. It will overflow and pass through; it will reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of its wings will fill the breadth of your land, Immanuel.

(Isa 8:9) Make an uproar, you peoples, and be broken in pieces! Listen, all you from far countries: dress for battle, and be shattered! Dress for battle, and be shattered!

(Isa 8:10) Take counsel together, and it will be brought to nothing; speak the word, and it will not stand: for God is with us.

(Mat 1:23) The virgin shall be with child and shall give birth to a son; and they shall call his name Immanuel, which means God with us.

Historically, Immanuel is intended primarily for a broad audience, not necessarily for a specific individual. The term Immanuel or Emmanuel attached to the Son of God was meant for the benefit of other peoples and does not identify who Yeshua is.

In the name Yeshua, the "Ye" comes from the Hebrew "Yeho-," a shortened form of the divine name Yahweh or YHWH. This element appears at the start of other biblical names like Jehoshaphat and Jehoahaz. The "Ye" in Yeshua represents the first part of the name, signifying "Yah" or "Yahweh," or “YHWH.”

The second part, "shua," derived from the Hebrew root שׁוּעָא (shua), comes from the Hebrew verb "yasha," and means "wealth," "abundance," or "opulence." It is also linked to the idea of "to cry out" or "to implore help," reflecting a spiritual meaning of calling upon divine aid. In the name Yeshua, the Hebrew form of Jesus, "Shua" contributes to the overall meaning of "salvation" or "deliverance," "to save, deliver, or rescue." Therefore, Yeshua means "Yahweh saves" or "the Lord is salvation," referring to the divine act of being miraculously rescued from distress and destruction.

It is clear that Immanuel and the name Yeshua complement each other: “Yeshua our Immanuel,” if you will.

In the Old Testament, the term Immanuel was a cry to God, often during war, to intervene on behalf of His people and destroy their enemies. In Isaiah’s time, Judah was about to be attacked by the Northern tribe of Israel and Assyria. The hope was for God to be with, stay, protect, and fight for Judah, His people, to bring victory over their enemies.

In Isaiah, Immanuel was used as a prayer, a cry on bended knees, in worship by Judah, asking God to be with them as their conqueror, to defend their tribe and land against the Northern Tribe of Israel and the Assyrian armies, to defeat them. This prophecy was fulfilled a few years later when the Assyrian armies and the tribe of Israel were completely destroyed.

In fact, the common greeting then and now, such as “God be with you” or “God bless you,” derives from the expression Immanuel. It is a sincere wish for hope and assurance that God would be at their side, intervening and protecting them from enemies, evil, and even mental and physical ailments.

In Matthew, the same Immanuel expression is used to indicate that God was coming again to help the people, not just Israel, especially the remnant of Israel, but all peoples and remnants of the nations, through His Son, Yeshua. God was present within Yeshua; His Spirit fully covered and dwelt within Him from the start of His mission to the Cross. If one does not believe this crucial point—that the Son was God’s Messiah and that God’s Spirit dwelt within Him—then one must believe the Son Himself is God, which is not the case.

Mary’s son’s name is more precisely derived from Hebrew, Yeshua or a close variant, not Jesus. The word Jesus was never meant to be in scripture; it is a Latinized Greek word without scriptural meaning. Joshua is a valid name, meaning YHWH delivers or saves (to freedom), which He did as His people entered the Promised Land.

Yeshua + Emmanuel means God shall save His people from death through His humble, lowly human servant. God and His Son walked together as one spirit with one purpose to the Cross, and they did exactly that for all of us. They loved us all the way to the Cross and beyond.

What a perfect team effort!



Mission accomplished, Amen.

 

[amigo de christo]

Let me be quite formal in my reply for such a regal treat you have presented me with, friend.

You return with two additional spirits in pursuit of greater truth. It seems this pursuit may be contagious, or perhaps it is a contagion. Nevertheless, I find this acceptable.

Let us address your unfortunate tendency to frequently chastise specific individuals while branding them as possessing the spirit of the antichrist, shall we? I am inclined to believe that this accusation pertains to you, my friend, as well as to many other members of the near-future world religious orthodox church organization that you so greatly fear and oppose. The irony of this situation is not lost on me.

Allow scripture to resonate with you once more, along with the witness of the Spirit of a genuine believer in Christ, Yeshua.

(1Jn 4:2) By this you may recognize the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God.

(1Jn 4:3) Conversely, every spirit that does not acknowledge that Jesus has come in the flesh is not of God; such spirits are identified as belonging to the antichrist, of whom you have been informed and who is already present in the world.

(1Jn 4:4) You are of God, dear children, and you have triumphed over them, for greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.

(1Jn 4:5) These individuals are of the world; therefore, they speak from a worldly perspective, and the world listens to them.

(1Jn 4:6) We are of God. Those who know God listen to us; those who are not of God do not listen to us. By this, we discern the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

Yeshua, during His time on earth, was conceived with flesh, blood, and bones, accompanied by His own human spirit (Luke 24:39). His spirit once inhabited His created physical human body, and today, His spirit resides within His newly created immortal body—both crafted by His Father, the one and only God. Yeshua is not merely spirit; God exists solely as spirit, without a human body, and He has never been a human being (Numbers 23:19, 1 Samuel 15:29, John 4:24).

The crux of 1 John 4:2b and 3a is that anyone who denies the existence of Yeshua as a man, a human individual with His own spirit—rather than a god, a hybrid, or a god-man—possesses a spirit that opposes Christ and is not of God. Are you among such individuals, my friend?

1 John 4:4 affirms that one is a child of God if they acknowledge that Yeshua existed as a human being and not as a god-man.

(1Jn 5:1) ...God’s Children: Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God; and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.

The verse 1 John 4:4 is directly associated with 1 John 5:1a, indicating that those who affirm the positive declaration described in the aforementioned scripture are indeed of God. Consequently, it follows that the reverse must be true for those who deny this affirmation; they are not of God and, thus, stand in opposition to the spirit of the Messiah.

The belief in the existence of Jesus and His divine origin from his Father, who is the only God, suggests that Jesus cannot be equated with God Himself. The notion of Jesus being sent by His God implies a distinction between the two; thus, Jesus is not God Himself. For instance, Jesus is documented as stating, “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent” (John 17:3). This statement is interpreted by some as a clear distinction between Jesus and the one true God, the Father.

In John 17:3, it is articulated: “And this is everlasting life, that they should know You, the only true God, and him whom You sent, Jesus Christ.”

Furthermore, in John 8:54, Jesus states, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifies me, whom you say is your God.” It is noteworthy that Jesus acknowledges His God as His Father, and the Pharisees do not react when Jesus implies that they share this same God. This suggests that the Pharisees never considered Jesus to be God, nor did they entertain the notion that He made such a claim; that idea would be quite absurd.

Therefore, I pose the question to you: Do you believe that Yeshua possesses a purely human nature, unblemished and immortalized in His glorified body and spirit today, or do you perceive Him as a hybrid, a kind of superhuman, or perhaps a mythological entity of an indistinct nature?

a nominal christain would not have s urvived nominal in the presence
of the early church .
Meaning they had been corrected and right quickly too .
At which p oint either they would have left or repented .
THis allowance of not correcting under banner that it is judging
Has literally destroyed many a church from within .
AND i aint talking numbers either . In those churches they swell
but under what .........................Cause it aint GOD .
The truth is no person sits in a place that does not make them feel good .
The question is what makes a soul feel good . IS IT THE TRUTH OF GOD , or the twisted dung of men .
THAT BE THE QUESTION my friend .
As for the sheep , ITS ONLY at peace and at rest and filled and fullfilled BY THE TRUTH .
Dung doctrine leaves it real empty .
SO we better real quickly start examining ourselves and what it is we been loving all along .
May i suggest , YET AGAIN , bible time in the house .

 

[JustMe]

You should always read some previous posts in the thread instead if just jumping in there. Usually the answer to your question was already presented.
Here In post #99, reveal the truth:

Revelation 5:13: All creation worships "Him (Father) who sits on the throne and the Lamb".
John 5:23: "That all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him".
Hebrews 1:6: The Father says, "Let all the angels of God worship him".

>>> Out Father honors and calls the Son God<<<

"But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God [Theos], is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom" Heb. 1:8

Short-sighted truth that seems to lack completeness.

Regarding John 5:23: Jesus was sent by his God and Father to fulfill God's will, and thus, honoring Yeshua is an act of obedience to God's command, not an acknowledgment of Yeshua as divine. Don't be so quick to the draw.

Read Yeshua's own statements regarding John 5:23, in John 5:19 and 5:30, where Yeshua denies equality with his God and emphasizes doing only what he sees his God, the Father doing.

The honor given to Yeshua is derived from God, and dishonoring Yeshua is seen as dishonoring God, not because Yeshua is God, but because he is God's authorized messenger or agent of our salvation.

And as I read your post, I see you ignored my advice to extent your reading past Hebrews 1:8 to know that Yeshua has a God as said many times in scripture. Hebrews 1:9 should do it.

God, his Father, speaking to the Son of God....
(Heb 1:9) You have loved righteousness and hated iniquity; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.

 

[amigo de christo]

You got it!
It means
I WAS
I AM
I WILL BE

No time with God.
I AM ...no beginning, no end.

So nice when those lights go on.

and now let alll get THIS
that title I AM belongs only TO GOD .
Yet JESUS used it .
EXACTLY . THE WORD WAS WITH GOD and THE WORD WAS GOD .
I AM ALPHA and OMEGA
The First and the last
the beginning and the end .
ONLY FOR GOD are those titles
AND YET JESUS used E VERY ONE OF THEM in revelation .
Aint that something . Exactly . Ex and may i say actly . Someone been lying to this generation
and doing all to remove the DIETY of CHRIST and ..............WOE unto them who do so .

 

[amigo de christo]

By grace thomas figured it out real fast the DAY he touched The hands of JESUS and saw him .
MY LORD and MY GOD , said t homas as he fell to his knees .
Lets not accuse thomas of blasphemy either . He doubted
for a time
but upon SEEING the RISEN savoir FOR HIMSELF
Had but these words to say
MY LORD and MY GOD . AND While JESUS had rebuked thomas for his lack of faith in believing HIS ressurection ,
HE DARN SURE never rebuked t homas for THAT LINE . just saying .

 

[keithr]

Anyone can simply pick'n'choose Bible Scripture while leaving other Bible Scriptures out, like you are doing. That's a clear sign of one following a CULT devised by men's doctrines.

Well you missed out that verse (John 3:16), so you're doing likewise! We can't quote every single relevant verse in the Bible when we comment on a topic - there are often too many verses to quote. That doesn't mean that we are picking and choosing. I picked a relevant verse, that's not difficult to understand, which does not harmonise with what you believe, so you should ask yourself, what does it mean? How does God giving His only begotten Son harmoise with your idea that God's Son is God (which is absurd!)?

You also need a lesson in Hebrews 1 about Jesus of Nazareth as Immanuel (God with us)...

Heb 1:1-8
1 God, Who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, Whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by Whom also He made the worlds;

The Father "made the worlds" by His Son Jesus Christ?? YES! That means you have to THINK! Just how old is The Son, since The Father made the worlds through The Son?? Can your brain grasp what that means? It means Jesus EXISTED PRIOR to His being born in the flesh.

Yes, I can grasp what it means. It means that Jesus is older than the universe, and yes, of course he existed prior to his human birth. But that does not mean that Jesus is God! Read what it says - "God ... has spoken to us by His Son". Jesus is God's Son; he is not God! God has appointed Jesus heir of all things - God hasn't appointed Himself as heir of Himself. It is obvious that Jesus is not God!

So you CANNOT use FLESH as an excuse for not admitting The Son of God being part of The Godhead.

You think that God came in the flesh, was killed, and then restored Himself to life. I believe that God sent His Son in the flesh, whom God restored to life after he was killed (Acts 2:32 WEB, "This Jesus God raised up, to which we all are witnesses"). Your idea doesn't make sense. God is immortal (He cannot possibly die), so He couldn't have died. Jesus wasn't immortal (although he has been immortal since his resurrection), and God sent him to die for our sins. 1 Corinthians 15:3 (WEB):

(3) For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,​

This word "Godhead" has probably helped to confuse you. A better translation is "divine nature", e.g. Acts 17:29 (UASV):

(29) Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and design of man.​

Romans 1:20 UASV

(20) For his invisible attributes are clearly seen from the creation of the world, being perceived through what has been made, even his eternal power and divine nature, so that they are without excuse.​

God's divine nature is an invisible attribute of God. His divine nature is not a "Godhead" of which His Son is a part.

3 Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Jesus of Nazareth is the "brightness of His glory", meaning The Father's glory, and Jesus is "the express image of His person", meaning the express Image of The Father, and Jesus upholds ALL THINGS by the word of His power. And only The Son was born in the flesh to die on the cross to purge the sins of those who would believe, The Father having been excluded in that.

"The Father having been excluded in that"? The Father is God (YHVH):

Jeremiah 10:10 WEB

(10) But Yahweh {YHVH} is the true God. ...​

John 17:1-3 WEB

(1) Jesus said these things, and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said, “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may also glorify you;​

(2) even as you gave him authority over all flesh, so he will give eternal life to all whom you have given him.​

(3) This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.​

Hebrews 1:3,4 ISV

(3) He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of his being, and he holds everything together by his powerful word. After he had provided a cleansing from sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Highest Majesty​

(4) and became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is better than theirs.​

Jesus, since his resurrection by God, has become much superior to the angels; he is now exactly like his Father YHVH, and he has sat down at God's right hand (Jesus is not God, the Highest Majesty, but he has sat down beside Him).

Christ's Spirit was NEVER created, otherwise He would never have been WITH The Father when ALL things were created through Christ in the beginning!

That is not logical. You are assuming that God did not create His Son, and then His Son created everything else. It is illogical to conclude that God's Sons must be God just because God chose to have His Son create the angels, the physical universe, and all life on earth. Colossians 1:15 (ISV):

(15) The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.​

Jesus is the image, or likeness, of God; he is not God.

5 For unto which of the angels said He at any time, "Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten Thee?" And again, "I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son?"
6 And again, when He bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, He saith, "And let all the angels of God worship Him."
7 And of the angels He saith, "Who maketh His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire."
8 But unto the Son He saith, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of Thy kingdom."
KJV

Did you miss that above Scripture?? Is it not in your New Testament Bible? Or do you even have... a Bible with The New Testament in it??

Don't be stupid and insulting (especially at Christmas! ). Of course I have not missed that verse. God calls His Son a god. I believe God, that He has a "firstbegotten" son, and that he is mighty, a god who will establish a kingdom on earth and will rule over mankind for 1,000 years, and will then turn over the Kingdom to God - 1 Corinthians 15:27-28 (WEB):

(27) For, “He put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when he says, “All things are put in subjection”, it is evident that he is excepted who subjected all things to him.​

(28) When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.​

How is it that Jesus Christ being a flesh descendant of David, and called "The Son of David", that David in spirit called Jesus "my Lord"? That is what Jesus is asking those Pharisees who sought to trap Him.

The answer is simple, IF... one believes The Bible Scriptures as written...

The Father told David that He would raise up a Righteous Branch to sit upon David's earthly throne forever, that being Jesus Christ Who is to inherit David's earthly throne when He returns in the future at His 2nd coming

Yes, Jesus is David's Lord, just as he is our Lord. 1 Corinthians 8:6 WEB

(6) yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we live through him.​

(I'll have to continue in another post.)

 

[keithr]

I like that Micah 2:5 example showing Jesus Christ having existed from "everlasting" so I'll quote it here...

Mic 5:2
2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto Me That is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
KJV

Better translations:

Micah 5:2 WEB

(2) But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, being small among the clans of Judah, out of you one will come out to me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings out are from of old, from ancient times.​

or UASV+

(2) But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, the one too little to be among the kinsmen of Judah, from you one will go out for me to be ruler in Israel, whose origin is from of old, from the days of long ago.​

or NET

(2) As for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, seemingly insignificant among the clans of Judah – from you a king will emerge who will rule over Israel on my behalf, one whose origins are in the distant past.​

YLT

(2) And thou, Beth-Lehem Ephratah, Little to be among the chiefs of Judah! From thee to Me he cometh forth—to be ruler in Israel, And his comings forth are of old, From the days of antiquity.​

Merry Chrismas!

 

[Aunty Jane]

Actually, I WAS has a very specific meaning in Greek...
so I don't really know why you're disagreeing with a language.

If you use a Greek interlinear with a good concordance, we see that the word used is “egō eimi” and it has a range of meanings....”egō” is “I”...and “eimi” can mean any of these definitions.....
“εἰμί eimí, i-mee'; the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic):—am, have been, it is I, was.” (Strongs)

So when Jesus answered a past tense question, he gave a past tense answer.....not “I am” but “I was” or “have been”.
John 8:58 has no connection with Exodus 3:15 at all....which in Hebrew says “I Will Be What I will Be”...not “I Am” as the meaning of God’s name.

Which beginning?
Does God have a beginning?
Maybe it's a way of speaking between finite beings?

That doesn’t really answer the question, does it? If God is eternal then if the trinity is true, the son had no beginning either....yet the Bible says he did...and not just as a human.
Col 1:15 calls Jesus “the firstborn of ALL creation”...which makes him what Rev 3:14 says....”the beginning of God’s creation”.

I'll let God be the judge of who has the light and who does not.
I'll let God be the judge of who is on the narrow path and who is not.

We will all have to do that...it’s not an option. But the Bible does clearly state in the words of Jesus that it won’t be the deluded majority. Why do only “few” find the right path? (Matt 7:13-14) while the majority will be stunned at their rejection? (Matt 7:21-23)

I have to agree.
The new churches/denominations sure are following teachings that have never been in the church from the beginning.
The devil certainly has invaded the true church and caused many to fall away...just like Paul said about the end times...
many falling away due to teachings of demons.

The “falling away” that Jesus and his apostles foretold, took place many centuries before the Reformation, which did not unite Christians, but merely split them up into ever increasing denominations....and some even pretend to be “non-denominational” by avoiding difficult topics....”pretend it’s not there and it will go away” doesn’t really work with the truth....which can sometimes be very inconvenient.

The “Catholic” church is what Christianity became and as foretold, it went rapidly off the rails as soon as the restraining influence of the apostles was gone.
This apostasy is old....it’s nothing new. Roman Catholicism merely politicised the church and gave it a “holy” excuse for “unholy” political bloodshed.....witch hunts, and confessions extracted by torture.
How in anyone’s imagination they can cling to a church with such a despicable history, is beyond me.