@Behold, would you expound the following:

[marks]

The controversial doctrine of Sinless Perfection, as it is known,

I'm hoping you realize this is not a doctrine I teach.

While it is true that the Holy Spirit never causes anyone to sin, it is not true that Christians are perfect in the sense that the lives they lead are immune to the presence and power of sin, although that is what we should aim for.

At the heart of my teaching is this . . . We rest in the finished work of Christ on the Cross. The ceasing from our own works is the cessation of living a life of "obedience for acceptance". We rest in Christ, justified, alive unto God, without hindrance. While we rest in Christ in this way, we do not sin, but we can lose confidence in Him, and sin revives in us, as we try to "make it right" with God. Jesus already did that, we cannot add to it, but by resting in it, we find what we wanted all along. A clean and pure life.

He who has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure. What hope? The hope - that is, the end of things that our faith is pointing to - the hope that when we see Him, we WILL be like Him, for we WILL see Him as He is.

We have confidence in the end result that He will accomplish in us, and that confidence frees us from the rollercoaster merry-go-round of struggling against sin. Even the fiercest temptations, even the most difficult afflictions, are joy when we are enjoying our fellowship with our Father. And we are free to be with Him at all times, because THAT is what Jesus bought with His death.

We can deny Him the fruit of His labor, but to deny Him His right to us, is to deny ourselves sanctification. When I accept the work He has done for me, I can rejoice in the light! And that is His command. We are to rejoice at all times.

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

In verse 9 he'll use the aorist, simple past tense,

What is this?

So here is a question . . . if the child of God commits a sin, does this mean that they do not have fellowship with God?

His position in Christ does not change. But his fellowship / relationship / connectedness is altered...Isaiah 59:2.

 

[justbyfaith]

And still, after an entire day of posting (in which @Behold has placed about two other threads on the boards), he has failed to yet answer this question of an exegesis of the scriptures at hand (1 John 1:7-9).

I suppose I should give him more time.

In three days, however, I am going to call him on the fact that he has not answered the question if he has not yet answered it by that time.

 

[Stumpmaster]

I'm hoping you realize this is not a doctrine I teach.

It's good you don't teach Sinless Perfection, and I wasn't singling out anyone in particular.

Another problem passage for the Perfectionists is in Hebrews 12 which portrays sin as trying to thwart the Christian before the race is finished, and addresses the need for us Christians to be corrected with chastisements, something that would not be necessary were we already in a state of sinless perfection.

Heb 12:1-6 Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which does so easily beset (thwart) us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, (2) looking unto Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. (3) For consider him that has endured such gainsaying of sinners against themselves, that you wax not weary, fainting in your souls. (4) You have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin: (5) and you have forgotten the exhortation, which reasons with you as with sons, My son, regard not lightly the chastening of the Lord, Nor faint when you are reproved of him; (6) For whom the Lord loves he chastens, And scourges every son whom he receives.

 

[justbyfaith]

It's good you don't teach Sinless Perfection, and I wasn't singling out anyone in particular.

Another problem passage for the Perfectionists is in Hebrews 12 which portrays sin as trying to thwart the Christian before the race is finished, and addresses the need for us Christians to be corrected with chastisements, something that would not be necessary were we already in a state of sinless perfection.

Heb 12:1-6 Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which does so easily beset (thwart) us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, (2) looking unto Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. (3) For consider him that has endured such gainsaying of sinners against themselves, that you wax not weary, fainting in your souls. (4) You have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin: (5) and you have forgotten the exhortation, which reasons with you as with sons, My son, regard not lightly the chastening of the Lord, Nor faint when you are reproved of him; (6) For whom the Lord loves he chastens, And scourges every son whom he receives.

Although, if you continue down to verse 11, you will find that chastening produces the peaceable fruit of righteousness in those who are exercised thereby. And therefore, while entire sanctification may still be ahead for some, it is still not something entirely apart from the spectrum of what is real.

1Th 5:23, And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24, Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

 

[marks]

Although, if you continue down to verse 11, you will find that chastening produces the peaceable fruit of righteousness in those who are exercised thereby.

Yes. It works!

 

[marks]

What is this?

Verb tense, normally a simple past tense.

His position in Christ does not change. But his fellowship / relationship / connectedness is altered...Isaiah 59:2.

So reconciliation to God is not total?

 

[marks]

And still, after an entire day of posting (in which @Behold has placed about two other threads on the boards), he has failed to yet answer this question of an exegesis of the scriptures at hand (1 John 1:7-9).

I suppose I should give him more time.

In three days, however, I am going to call him on the fact that he has not answered the question if he has not yet answered it by that time.

What is it you are hoping to accomplish?

 

[justbyfaith]

So reconciliation to God is not total?

Isaiah 59:2 tells us that sin separates us from God.

And since the blood of Jesus covers our sins so that we stand in a position of grace, this separation can only be referring to relationship / fellowship / connectendess.

What is it you are hoping to accomplish?

For him to see his error while exegeting the verses. For him to see that the verses do in fact contradict his teaching.

Or, if they don't, for him to make clear how these verses can be included in the theology that he has presented to us.

 

[marks]

make clear how these verses can be included in the theology that he has presented to us.

I've done that but you don't accept it.

Isaiah 59:2 tells us that sin separates us from God.

And since the blood of Jesus covers our sins so that we stand in a position of grace, this separation can only be referring to relationship / fellowship / connectendess.

Covers our sin? or sends it away? Because the word used is to send away. Another word thats used is to free us from our sins. In Romans 6, it says we have been "justified away from our sins".

Does Isaiah tell us that sin in the Christian separates them from God? Because if that is true, how do we come back to God when we're done sinning? How would we ever be done sinning if God has withdrawn from us?

Rather, even while we were sinners, Jesus died for us, reconciling us to God.

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

Covers our sin? or sends it away?

Covers it (Romans 4:7) in justification; and sends it away (1 John 3:5) in sanctification.

Does Isaiah tell us that sin in the Christian separates them from God?

Yes (Isaiah 59:2).

God accepts the prayer of repentance; for in repenting one is asking the Lord to take away or else cover his sin; and in this the sin will no longer separate him.

The believer has access to the throne room because his sins are covered; and has access to relationship when his sins are confessed so that they are taken away.

The more sin is confessed, the more access there is to the Lord in relationship.

 

[marks]

The more sin is confessed, the more access there is to the Lord in relationship.

Hebrews 4
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Why is it that we can come boldly to the throne of grace? Is it because we have confessed our sins? Or because Jesus is our High Priest, and He understands our infirmities. Sin is not the issue. It was dealt with at the cross, and we have been reconciled to God. Reconciliation is nothing if not complete.

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

Hebrews 4
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Why is it that we can come boldly to the throne of grace? Is it because we have confessed our sins? Or because Jesus is our High Priest, and He understands our infirmities. Sin is not the issue. It was dealt with at the cross, and we have been reconciled to God. Reconciliation is nothing if not complete.

Much love!

We can come boldly to the throne of grace because our sins are covered.

The reason why we come before the throne room is because we have practical sins that we are needing to have Him deal with. For the sake of fellowship / relationship / connectedness, we come before Him and are transparent before Him so that the blood of Jesus can cleanse us from all sin (which is more than just covering it).

 

[marks]

We can come boldly to the throne of grace because our sins are covered.

How do you describe "justification"?

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

How do you describe "justification"?

Much love!

"just-as-if-i'ed-never sinned"

Maybe even "just-as-if-I-don't sin."

 

[justbyfaith]

Or, to be declared righteous.

In this, it is impossible for God to lie (Hebrews 6:18, Titus 1:2). He calls those things which are not as though they are, creating a new reality (Romans 4:17).

 

[Stumpmaster]

Although, if you continue down to verse 11, you will find that chastening produces the peaceable fruit of righteousness in those who are exercised thereby. And therefore, while entire sanctification may still be ahead for some, it is still not something entirely apart from the spectrum of what is real.

Yes. The Epistle to the Hebrews and Chapter 12 in particular are much loved and oft frequented spiritual pastures for me. Still, there are some who insist that having come to Christ the first time they need have no further recourse to His forgiveness since they are forever absolved of all sin, whenever and however such may occur. My response is to refer them to these 4 verses among the seven letters to the ekklesias as recorded in the book of Revelation.

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence you are fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of its place, except you repent.
Rev 2:16 Repent therefore; or else I come to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of my mouth.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how you have received and did hear; and keep it, and repent. If therefore you will not watch, I will come as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I reprove and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

 

[marks]

Yes. The Epistle to the Hebrews and Chapter 12 in particular are much loved and oft frequented spiritual pastures for me. Still, there are some who insist that having come to Christ the first time they need have no further recourse to His forgiveness since they are forever absolved of all sin, whenever and however such may occur. My response is to refer them to these 4 verses among the seven letters to the ekklesias as recorded in the book of Revelation.

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence you are fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of its place, except you repent.
Rev 2:16 Repent therefore; or else I come to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of my mouth.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how you have received and did hear; and keep it, and repent. If therefore you will not watch, I will come as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I reprove and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Yes, this is one of the few places in the New Testament where metanoia is specifically applied to a believer. Change your mind, and do the first works.

Why would that be? Why is Jesus telling the messenger to repent and do certain works? I think there is a clue in the next part, "I will remove your candlestick", your church will be taken away. If you are not remaining in love, how can you serve?

Now . . . is this passage teaching us that if we sin as children of God that we remain unforgiven, and therefore under God's condemnation, being spiritually dead? Until we return for forgiveness? At which time we are restored to spiritual life?

Much love!

 

[marks]

"just-as-if-i'ed-never sinned"

Maybe even "just-as-if-I-don't sin."

Romans 6:7 "For he that has died is free from sin."


The thing is, the word here is not actually 'free', it is "has been justified", a perfect tense verb, something that when accomplished, remains an accomplished fact. Think, a "rung bell". You cast a bell, hang the clapper, but you don't ring it. It is an 'unrung bell'. Then you ring it. The bell has been rung. It will never again be an 'unrung bell'. The single act has forever altered the bell.

The one who has died, this one,

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Our old man is crucified with Him. And in our death we have been justified,

Justify . . . to set right. To render or show just, or innocent. When you follow the word through it's uses and origin, this means to show as being righteous when compared to the standard of righteousness.

In Jesus, He showed Himself the Just One, by never falling short of righteousness.

In God's children, we are begotten again, a new creature, created in righteousness and true holiness (Eph 4).

Being reborn, from God, we have been justified away from sin, now all things are new, now all things are of God (2 Cor 5).

The new man is created patterned after God, righteous, truly holy, put that man on, which is to say, live in your justification. This is living in innocence of sin, and free from sin's power.

Much love!

 

[Stumpmaster]

Yes, this is one of the few places in the New Testament where metanoia is specifically applied to a believer. Change your mind, and do the first works.

Why would that be? Why is Jesus telling the messenger to repent and do certain works? I think there is a clue in the next part, "I will remove your candlestick", your church will be taken away. If you are not remaining in love, how can you serve?

Now . . . is this passage teaching us that if we sin as children of God that we remain unforgiven, and therefore under God's condemnation, being spiritually dead? Until we return for forgiveness? At which time we are restored to spiritual life?

Much love!

Staying with the subject of perfection but also touching on election and holiness, it seems from both Scripture and experience, that God gives us direction and we either co-operate with this, going the distance and overcoming dangers to reach our destination, or we suffer the consequences. I believe the journey to perfection requires us to follow the Way of Holiness Hebrews 12:14, which is illuminated by the Word of God Psalms 119:105, signposted with the Work of God John 14:6, and completed according to the Will of God 2 Timothy 4:8.

God foreknows all those who will abide in Him and act in ways that accompany salvation Hebrews 6:9, bringing forth fruit unto holiness Romans 6:22, and these He has elected to be conformed the image of Christ Romans 8:29.

Heb 6:9-12 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. (10) For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which you have showed toward his name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister. (11) And we desire that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: (12) That you be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Note this verse regarding the return of Israel from captivity:
Jer 31:21 Set thee up waymarks, make thee high heaps: set thine heart toward the highway, even the way which thou wentest: turn again, O virgin of Israel, turn again to these thy cities.