Believers who affair then marry are ongoing adulterers yet still saved ?

[Grailhunter]

Not quite true. Jesus Himself taught the two on the road to Emmaus from the Scriptures:

NKJV Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

The Bereans were commended for checking in the Scriptures the truth of Paul's preaching:

NKJV Act 17:10 Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews.
Act 17:11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

Agreed, they did not have the New Testament at that time, but what they did have of the Bible was authritative.

LOL The first bound Bible occurred in the 5th century.
Fathom was saying the church came before the bound Bible.

 

[David Lamb]

LOL The first bound Bible occurred in the 5th century.
Fathom was saying the church came before the bound Bible.

But I was answering Fathom, who had asked: "Which came first, the Bible or the church?" I said that even the earliest churches had a Bible, albeit not complete, because it lacked the New Testament. I don't see that the matter of whether it was bound or not makes any difference. The point is surely that the earliest Christians made use of the authority of the Bible they had. They didn't start inventing new doctrines. If we look at Peter's and Paul's preaching recorded in Acts and the epistles, we see that it is based firmly on what had already been written in The Old Testament. For example:

NKJV Act 7:42 Then God turned and gave them up to worship the host of heaven, as it is written in the book of the Prophets: 'DID YOU OFFER ME SLAUGHTERED ANIMALS AND SACRIFICES DURING FORTY YEARS IN THE WILDERNESS, O HOUSE OF ISRAEL?

1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

 

[Grailhunter]

But I was answering Fathom, who had asked: "Which came first, the Bible or the church?" I said that even the earliest churches had a Bible, albeit not complete, because it lacked the New Testament. I don't see that the matter of whether it was bound or not makes any difference. The point is surely that the earliest Christians made use of the authority of the Bible they had. They didn't start inventing new doctrines. If we look at Peter's and Paul's preaching recorded in Acts and the epistles, we see that it is based firmly on what had already been written in The Old Testament. For example:

NKJV Act 7:42 Then God turned and gave them up to worship the host of heaven, as it is written in the book of the Prophets: 'DID YOU OFFER ME SLAUGHTERED ANIMALS AND SACRIFICES DURING FORTY YEARS IN THE WILDERNESS, O HOUSE OF ISRAEL?

1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

Well the big difference is that Jewish and Christian texts existed in the early church but it was not like most of the Christians had copies. And the church existed before the Apostles wrote the New Testament.

The Christian church functioned mostly by word of mouth....preaching. Even though the first hand written bound Bible was produced by order of Emperor Constantine in the 4th century, the public was not allowed to have them. And if they caught you with one they might kill you.

Then came the invention of the Gutenberg printing press in the 15th century and the Protestant Reform in the 16th century.....people finally got Bibles in their hands if they had the money to buy them.....expensive.

New and different doctrines and beliefs and how they were practiced? Big topic.....
Jewish-Christians and Gentile-Christians believed and practiced Christianity differently. So the Bible starts out with two distinct denominations.

By the time of the Ecumenical Councils in the 4th century Christianity was a diverse belief.

 

[David Lamb]

Well the big difference is that Jewish and Christian texts existed in the early church but it was not like most of the Christians had copies. And the church existed before the Apostles wrote the New Testament.

The Christian church functioned mostly by word of mouth....preaching. Even though the first hand written bound Bible was produced by order of Emperor Constantine in the 4th century, the public was not allowed to have them. And if they caught you with one they might kill you.

Then came the invention of the Gutenberg printing press in the 15th century and the Protestant Reform in the 16th century.....people finally got Bibles in their hands if they had the money to buy them.....expensive.

New and different doctrines and beliefs and how they were practiced? Big topic.....
Jewish-Christians and Gentile-Christians believed and practiced Christianity differently. So the Bible starts out with two distinct denominations.

By the time of the Ecumenical Councils in the 4th century Christianity was a diverse belief.

I agree that we should indeed be grateful to God that we have the whole Bible, and that most of us live in regimes where we are not punished for reading or believing it. I don't agree that the New Testament resulted from the early church adding doctrines to what had been revealed in the Old Testament. The apostles preached the same things they had heard directly from Christ Himself.

 

[Grailhunter]

I agree that we should indeed be grateful to God that we have the whole Bible, and that most of us live in regimes where we are not punished for reading or believing it. I don't agree that the New Testament resulted from the early church adding doctrines to what had been revealed in the Old Testament. The apostles preached the same things they had heard directly from Christ Himself.

I am not sure what you are trying to say here.
Doctrines, preachings, and practices.....and the differences. What the Apostles heard from Christ and what they understood is hard to nail down. Some how the Jewish-Christian Apostles thought that Christian should follow the Mosaic Law and sacrifice animals and not allow Gentile-Christians in the Temple. The Gentile-Christians did not follow the Mosaic Law.

 

[David Lamb]

I am not sure what you are trying to say here.
Doctrines, preachings, and practices.....and the differences. What the Apostles heard from Christ and what they understood is hard to nail down. Some how the Jewish-Christian Apostles thought that Christian should follow the Mosaic Law and sacrifice animals and not allow Gentile-Christians in the Temple. The Gentile-Christians did not follow the Mosaic Law.

What I meant (and sorry if I was not clear) was that the early church did not "invent" doctrines which then became encoded in the New Testament. Rather, they sought to spread the gospel Christ had preached. 10 times, Paul refers to the gospel he preached as "the gospel of Christ." For example:

NKJV Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

As John Gill commented on the first phrase of that verse:

"This supposes that some were, though the apostle was not, ashamed of the Gospel; as all such are who hide and conceal it, who have abilities to preach it, and do not: or who preach, but not the Gospel; or who preach the Gospel only in part, who own that in private, they will not preach in public, and use ambiguous words, of doubtful signification, to cover themselves; who blend the Gospel with their own inventions, seek to please men, and live upon popular applause, regard their own interest, and not Christ's, and cannot bear the reproach of his Gospel."

 

[Fathom]

Not quite true. Jesus Himself taught the two on the road to Emmaus from the Scriptures:

NKJV Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

The Bereans were commended for checking in the Scriptures the truth of Paul's preaching:

NKJV Act 17:10 Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews.
Act 17:11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

Agreed, they did not have the New Testament at that time, but what they did have of the Bible was authritative.

Israel was first before scripture.

It was the responsibility of the church to decide what books enter into the canon of bible.

 

[Fathom]

Do you claim if the church teaches other allowable conditions for divorce then the church OVER-RIDES the teachings of Christ ?
eg Christ teaches divorce is only allowed in the case of fornication
Matt 19:9
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

The church is known for its compassionate nature.

The church is body of Christ.

Are not, people who show compassion get prosecuted?

 

[PeterAndroz]

The church is known for its compassionate nature.

The church is body of Christ.

Are not, people who show compassion get prosecuted?

Christ states divorce only allowed in case of fornication
Do you believe Christ gave the Church authority to over-rule what He taught ?

 

[Linda]

The question is framed so that the answer is already inside the premises. You state as established that the gospel "teaches they ARE saved, they ARE HS sealed," and then ask whether they go to heaven. Having assumed the conclusion, the scenario is decoration.

The sharper problem is the proof-texting. You cite Ephesians 1:13 for the sealing. The same author, in the same letter, four chapters later, writes Ephesians 5:5: no whoremonger, nor unclean person, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. You cannot cite Ephesians 1 as settled apostolic teaching and treat Ephesians 5 as though it were not there.
Add 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, written to a church and listing adulterers among those who shall not inherit the kingdom, and Galatians 5:19-21, and Hebrews 13:4. Whatever the resolution is, it has to hold all of those together, and your framing does not attempt it.
The New Testament does not describe a person who believes the right propositions and knowingly persists in what God calls sin and is thereby fine. That configuration is absent. Romans 6:1 raises it precisely to reject it. The texts assume throughout that trust and repentance are one motion rather than two, and the question depends on prying them apart and treating the first as a completed transaction the second cannot affect.
I would not go with a confident verdict on Fred and Sue individually. The texts describe the character of a life, and neither of us has access to what is actually happening in two people's repentance.

It cannot be undone!

 

[Pierac]

According to the 1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph 1:13 Gospel that Gal 1:11-12 Christ taught to ONLY Paul
I AM saved, AM HS sealed because I place my faith, trust, belief in ONLY the death, burial, resurrection of Christ and NOT anything I do
Titus 3:5-7, Gal 2:16, Eph 2:8-9, Rom 3:28, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:1
.
Now tell us how you are saved ?

Peter.... Now you have asked the correct question...

This raises a difficult question that no single passage fully answers. Scripture describes the division between the two groups in several ways. John says that the person who believes has already passed from death to life and will not come into judgment (John 5:24).

Yet! Five verses later, he speaks of those who have done good rising to life and those who have done evil rising to judgment (John 5:29).

So, Peter, can you believe and have done evil... and missed that boat? John does not say???

In Matthew 25, the sheep and goats are divided according to how they treated the hungry, the stranger, the sick, and the prisoner. The sheep are surprised because they did not realize they had been serving Christ (Matthew 25:37-40).

Paul, meanwhile, speaks of “those who belong to Christ” being raised at his coming (1 Corinthians 15:23, ESV).

Do faith, good conduct, mercy, and belonging to Christ all describe the same dividing line? Or do they describe different aspects of judgment? No single passage fully explains the relationship. Let's not forget being written in the Book of life before the foundation of the world.

Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

So Peter... tell me how you fit in Jesus' words above... Tell us all the great things you have done! Tell us how demons fear you! We await your greatness to show us the way before Jesus returns!

You see, Peter... anyone can make a post; some of us are better than others... but that doesn't make us right. So stop trying to be some supreme leader here on this site! Just know... You will have to give an account! So, Peter... on this forum, can you tell Jesus... Did I not prophesy in Your name on the forum, and in Your name cast out demons, like (Pierac) and in Your name perform many miracles for others to see and be humbled by my post?

Peter, could you be headed for these words....? I never knew you!

Now... I ask you... how you are saved?

 

[PeterAndroz]

Peter.... Now you have asked the correct question...

This raises a difficult question that no single passage fully answers. Scripture describes the division between the two groups in several ways. John says that the person who believes has already passed from death to life and will not come into judgment (John 5:24).

Yet! Five verses later, he speaks of those who have done good rising to life and those who have done evil rising to judgment (John 5:29).

So, Peter, can you believe and have done evil... and missed that boat? John does not say???

In Matthew 25, the sheep and goats are divided according to how they treated the hungry, the stranger, the sick, and the prisoner. The sheep are surprised because they did not realize they had been serving Christ (Matthew 25:37-40).

Paul, meanwhile, speaks of “those who belong to Christ” being raised at his coming (1 Corinthians 15:23, ESV).

Do faith, good conduct, mercy, and belonging to Christ all describe the same dividing line? Or do they describe different aspects of judgment? No single passage fully explains the relationship. Let's not forget being written in the Book of life before the foundation of the world.

Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

So Peter... tell me how you fit in Jesus' words above... Tell us all the great things you have done! Tell us how demons fear you! We await your greatness to show us the way before Jesus returns!

You see, Peter... anyone can make a post; some of us are better than others... but that doesn't make us right. So stop trying to be some supreme leader here on this site! Just know... You will have to give an account! So, Peter... on this forum, can you tell Jesus... Did I not prophesy in Your name on the forum, and in Your name cast out demons, like (Pierac) and in Your name perform many miracles for others to see and be humbled by my post?

Peter, could you be headed for these words....? I never knew you!

Now... I ask you... how you are saved?

""This raises a difficult question that no single passage fully answers""
Who did Christ select as Apostle & Minister to Pierac ?
Acts 9:15, Rom 11:13, Rom 15:16.
Did the other Apostles agree ?
Gal 2:7-9
...
What actual verses did that Apostle teach that states how Pierac is forgiven of ALL sin, saved & HS sealed ?
1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph :1:13, Col 2:13
What verses did that Apostle teach was the performance requirement to be saved, forgiven & HS sealed ?
Titus 3:5-7, Eph 2:8-9, Gal 2:16, Rom 3:28, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:1
...
Do you believe that Apostle is wrong or contradicting what Christ taught him in Gal 1:11-12 ?

 

[Pierac]

""This raises a difficult question that no single passage fully answers""
Who did Christ select as Apostle & Minister to Pierac ?
Acts 9:15, Rom 11:13, Rom 15:16.
Did the other Apostles agree ?
Gal 2:7-9
...
What actual verses did that Apostle teach that states how Pierac is forgiven of ALL sin, saved & HS sealed ?
1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph :1:13, Col 2:13
What verses did that Apostle teach was the performance requirement to be saved, forgiven & HS sealed ?
Titus 3:5-7, Eph 2:8-9, Gal 2:16, Rom 3:28, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:1
...
Do you believe that Apostle is wrong or contradicting what Christ taught him in Gal 1:11-12 ?

I believe we see what we want to see....

ESV Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable
use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory

You can not will your way to God!

NET Bible Pro 20:24 The steps of a person73 are ordained by74 the LORD — so how can anyone75 understand his own way?

Pro 20:24
73 tn Heb "the steps of a man"; but "man" is the noun גֶּבֶר (gever, in pause), indicating an important, powerful person. BDB 149-50 s.v. suggests it is used of men in their role of defending women and children; if that can be validated, then a translation of "man" would be appropriate here. But the line seems to have a wider, more general application. The "steps" represent (by implied comparison) the course of life (cf. NLT "the road we travel").

74 tn Heb "from the LORD"; NRSV "ordered by the Lord"; NIV "directed by the Lord."

sn To say that one's steps are ordained by the LORD means that one's course of actions, one's whole life, is divinely prepared and sovereignly superintended. Ironically, man is not actually in control of his own steps.

75 tn The verse uses an independent nominative absolute to point up the contrast between the mortal and the immortal: "and man, how can he understand his way?" The verb in the sentence would then be classified as a potential imperfect; and the whole question rhetorical. It is affirming that humans cannot understand very much at all about their lives.



Net Bible Eph 1:11 In Christ28 we too have been claimed as God's own possession,29 since we were predestined according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will



29 tn Grk "we were appointed by lot." The notion of the verb κληρόω (klēroō) in the OT was to "appoint a portion by lot" (the more frequent cognate verb κληρονομέω [klēronomeō] meant "obtain a portion by lot"). In the passive, as here, the idea is that "we were appointed [as a portion] by lot" (BDAG 548 s.v. κληρόω 1). The words "God's own" have been supplied in the translation to clarify this sense of the verb. An alternative interpretation is that believers receive a portion as an inheritance: "In Christ we too have been appointed a portion of the inheritance." See H. W. Hoehner, Ephesians, 226-27, for discussion on this interpretive issue.

sn God's own possession. Although God is not mentioned explicitly in the Greek text, it is clear from the context that he has chosen believers for himself. Just as with the nation Israel, the church is God's chosen portion or possession (cf. Deu_32:8-9).

---

​

 

[PeterAndroz]

I believe we see what we want to see....

ESV Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable
use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory

You can not will your way to God!

NET Bible Pro 20:24 The steps of a person73 are ordained by74 the LORD — so how can anyone75 understand his own way?

Pro 20:24
73 tn Heb "the steps of a man"; but "man" is the noun גֶּבֶר (gever, in pause), indicating an important, powerful person. BDB 149-50 s.v. suggests it is used of men in their role of defending women and children; if that can be validated, then a translation of "man" would be appropriate here. But the line seems to have a wider, more general application. The "steps" represent (by implied comparison) the course of life (cf. NLT "the road we travel").

74 tn Heb "from the LORD"; NRSV "ordered by the Lord"; NIV "directed by the Lord."

sn To say that one's steps are ordained by the LORD means that one's course of actions, one's whole life, is divinely prepared and sovereignly superintended. Ironically, man is not actually in control of his own steps.

75 tn The verse uses an independent nominative absolute to point up the contrast between the mortal and the immortal: "and man, how can he understand his way?" The verb in the sentence would then be classified as a potential imperfect; and the whole question rhetorical. It is affirming that humans cannot understand very much at all about their lives.



Net Bible Eph 1:11 In Christ28 we too have been claimed as God's own possession,29 since we were predestined according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will



29 tn Grk "we were appointed by lot." The notion of the verb κληρόω (klēroō) in the OT was to "appoint a portion by lot" (the more frequent cognate verb κληρονομέω [klēronomeō] meant "obtain a portion by lot"). In the passive, as here, the idea is that "we were appointed [as a portion] by lot" (BDAG 548 s.v. κληρόω 1). The words "God's own" have been supplied in the translation to clarify this sense of the verb. An alternative interpretation is that believers receive a portion as an inheritance: "In Christ we too have been appointed a portion of the inheritance." See H. W. Hoehner, Ephesians, 226-27, for discussion on this interpretive issue.

sn God's own possession. Although God is not mentioned explicitly in the Greek text, it is clear from the context that he has chosen believers for himself. Just as with the nation Israel, the church is God's chosen portion or possession (cf. Deu_32:8-9).

​

---

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Explain why these 2 verses appear to contradict the one above.
1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Pet 3:9 ...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Grailhunter]

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Explain why these 2 verses appear to contradict the one above.
1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Pet 3:9 ...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1st Timothy 2:4
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. 2nd Peter 3:9

Did you get your verses from the Holy Book of Universalism?