Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
LOL The first bound Bible occurred in the 5th century.
Fathom was saying the church came before the bound Bible.
Believers who affair then marry are ongoing adulterers yet still saved ?
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LOL The first bound Bible occurred in the 5th century.
Fathom was saying the church came before the bound Bible.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
But I was answering Fathom, who had asked: "Which came first, the Bible or the church?" I said that even the earliest churches had a Bible, albeit not complete, because it lacked the New Testament. I don't see that the matter of whether it was bound or not makes any difference. The point is surely that the earliest Christians made use of the authority of the Bible they had. They didn't start inventing new doctrines. If we look at Peter's and Paul's preaching recorded in Acts and the epistles, we see that it is based firmly on what had already been written in The Old Testament. For example:
NKJV Act 7:42 Then God turned and gave them up to worship the host of heaven, as it is written in the book of the Prophets: 'DID YOU OFFER ME SLAUGHTERED ANIMALS AND SACRIFICES DURING FORTY YEARS IN THE WILDERNESS, O HOUSE OF ISRAEL?
1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Well the big difference is that Jewish and Christian texts existed in the early church but it was not like most of the Christians had copies. And the church existed before the Apostles wrote the New Testament.
The Christian church functioned mostly by word of mouth....preaching. Even though the first hand written bound Bible was produced by order of Emperor Constantine in the 4th century, the public was not allowed to have them. And if they caught you with one they might kill you.
Then came the invention of the Gutenberg printing press in the 15th century and the Protestant Reform in the 16th century.....people finally got Bibles in their hands if they had the money to buy them.....expensive.
New and different doctrines and beliefs and how they were practiced? Big topic.....
Jewish-Christians and Gentile-Christians believed and practiced Christianity differently. So the Bible starts out with two distinct denominations.
By the time of the Ecumenical Councils in the 4th century Christianity was a diverse belief.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
I agree that we should indeed be grateful to God that we have the whole Bible, and that most of us live in regimes where we are not punished for reading or believing it. I don't agree that the New Testament resulted from the early church adding doctrines to what had been revealed in the Old Testament. The apostles preached the same things they had heard directly from Christ Himself.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
I am not sure what you are trying to say here.
Doctrines, preachings, and practices.....and the differences. What the Apostles heard from Christ and what they understood is hard to nail down. Some how the Jewish-Christian Apostles thought that Christian should follow the Mosaic Law and sacrifice animals and not allow Gentile-Christians in the Temple. The Gentile-Christians did not follow the Mosaic Law.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
What I meant (and sorry if I was not clear) was that the early church did not "invent" doctrines which then became encoded in the New Testament. Rather, they sought to spread the gospel Christ had preached. 10 times, Paul refers to the gospel he preached as "the gospel of Christ." For example:
NKJV Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
As John Gill commented on the first phrase of that verse:
"This supposes that some were, though the apostle was not, ashamed of the Gospel; as all such are who hide and conceal it, who have abilities to preach it, and do not: or who preach, but not the Gospel; or who preach the Gospel only in part, who own that in private, they will not preach in public, and use ambiguous words, of doubtful signification, to cover themselves; who blend the Gospel with their own inventions, seek to please men, and live upon popular applause, regard their own interest, and not Christ's, and cannot bear the reproach of his Gospel."
Israel was first before scripture.
It was the responsibility of the church to decide what books enter into the canon of bible.
The church is known for its compassionate nature.
The church is body of Christ.
Are not, people who show compassion get prosecuted?
Christ states divorce only allowed in case of fornication
Do you believe Christ gave the Church authority to over-rule what He taught ?
Peter.... Now you have asked the correct question...
This raises a difficult question that no single passage fully answers. Scripture describes the division between the two groups in several ways. John says that the person who believes has already passed from death to life and will not come into judgment (John 5:24).
Yet! Five verses later, he speaks of those who have done good rising to life and those who have done evil rising to judgment (John 5:29).
So, Peter, can you believe and have done evil... and missed that boat? John does not say???
In Matthew 25, the sheep and goats are divided according to how they treated the hungry, the stranger, the sick, and the prisoner. The sheep are surprised because they did not realize they had been serving Christ (Matthew 25:37-40).
Paul, meanwhile, speaks of “those who belong to Christ” being raised at his coming (1 Corinthians 15:23, ESV).
Do faith, good conduct, mercy, and belonging to Christ all describe the same dividing line? Or do they describe different aspects of judgment? No single passage fully explains the relationship. Let's not forget being written in the Book of life before the foundation of the world.
Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
So Peter... tell me how you fit in Jesus' words above... Tell us all the great things you have done! Tell us how demons fear you! We await your greatness to show us the way before Jesus returns!
You see, Peter... anyone can make a post; some of us are better than others... but that doesn't make us right. So stop trying to be some supreme leader here on this site! Just know... You will have to give an account! So, Peter... on this forum, can you tell Jesus... Did I not prophesy in Your name on the forum, and in Your name cast out demons, like (Pierac) and in Your name perform many miracles for others to see and be humbled by my post?
Peter, could you be headed for these words....? I never knew you!
Now... I ask you... how you are saved?
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""This raises a difficult question that no single passage fully answers""
Who did Christ select as Apostle & Minister to Pierac ?
Acts 9:15, Rom 11:13, Rom 15:16.
Did the other Apostles agree ?
Gal 2:7-9
...
What actual verses did that Apostle teach that states how Pierac is forgiven of ALL sin, saved & HS sealed ?
1 Cor 15:1-4, Eph :1:13, Col 2:13
What verses did that Apostle teach was the performance requirement to be saved, forgiven & HS sealed ?
Titus 3:5-7, Eph 2:8-9, Gal 2:16, Rom 3:28, Rom 4:5, Rom 5:1
...
Do you believe that Apostle is wrong or contradicting what Christ taught him in Gal 1:11-12 ?
I believe we see what we want to see....
ESV Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable
use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory
You can not will your way to God!
NET Bible Pro 20:24 The steps of a person73 are ordained by74 the LORD — so how can anyone75 understand his own way?
Pro 20:24
73 tn Heb "the steps of a man"; but "man" is the noun גֶּבֶר (gever, in pause), indicating an important, powerful person. BDB 149-50 s.v. suggests it is used of men in their role of defending women and children; if that can be validated, then a translation of "man" would be appropriate here. But the line seems to have a wider, more general application. The "steps" represent (by implied comparison) the course of life (cf. NLT "the road we travel").
74 tn Heb "from the LORD"; NRSV "ordered by the Lord"; NIV "directed by the Lord."
sn To say that one's steps are ordained by the LORD means that one's course of actions, one's whole life, is divinely prepared and sovereignly superintended. Ironically, man is not actually in control of his own steps.
75 tn The verse uses an independent nominative absolute to point up the contrast between the mortal and the immortal: "and man, how can he understand his way?" The verb in the sentence would then be classified as a potential imperfect; and the whole question rhetorical. It is affirming that humans cannot understand very much at all about their lives.
Net Bible Eph 1:11 In Christ28 we too have been claimed as God's own possession,29 since we were predestined according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will
29 tn Grk "we were appointed by lot." The notion of the verb κληρόω (klēroō) in the OT was to "appoint a portion by lot" (the more frequent cognate verb κληρονομέω [klēronomeō] meant "obtain a portion by lot"). In the passive, as here, the idea is that "we were appointed [as a portion] by lot" (BDAG 548 s.v. κληρόω 1). The words "God's own" have been supplied in the translation to clarify this sense of the verb. An alternative interpretation is that believers receive a portion as an inheritance: "In Christ we too have been appointed a portion of the inheritance." See H. W. Hoehner, Ephesians, 226-27, for discussion on this interpretive issue.
sn God's own possession. Although God is not mentioned explicitly in the Greek text, it is clear from the context that he has chosen believers for himself. Just as with the nation Israel, the church is God's chosen portion or possession (cf. Deu_32:8-9).
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Explain why these 2 verses appear to contradict the one above.
1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Pet 3:9 ...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1st Timothy 2:4
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. 2nd Peter 3:9
Did you get your verses from the Holy Book of Universalism?
God’s Stated Desire and Purpose
1 Timothy 2:3-4 (NASB) This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.1 Timothy 4:10 (NASB) For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
John 12:32 (ESV) And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
God desires all people to be saved. God is described as the Savior of all. Christ draws all people to Himself. These are not peripheral texts; they are central statements about God’s character and intention. Yet... They do not teach universalism as a mechanical certainty, but they do set the scope of God’s redemptive will far beyond what Christian theology has usually acknowledged.
Romans 6:23 (KJV) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
The contrast here is between death and life, not between eternal suffering and eternal bliss. Sin produces death; the gift of God is life. If the consequence of sin were eternal conscious torment, one would expect Paul to say so here. Instead, he says death, the loss of life, the return to dust that Genesis predicted. And this death is overcome not by the soul’s natural immortality but by the gift of God, which is eternal life in Christ Jesus.
The argument does not stop there. Jesus died on the cross precisely so that you might have life. He absorbed the full wage, death, genuine death, so that death would not be the final word.
A question presses here, and it is better answered than left to nag us. If death is the wage and everyone dies, believers included, in what sense did Christ pay it in their place? Scripture speaks of two deaths, not one. When Jesus promised his followers they would never see death (John 8:51), he was not promising they would not be buried, since all of them were. Revelation says of those in the first resurrection that over them the second death has no power (Revelation 20:6). The first death is common to all. The second is what the redeemed are spared.
One further observation belongs with the wage language. Scripture insists the work was done once. Christ suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous (1 Peter 3:18); he was offered once to bear the sins of many (Hebrews 9:28); the offering was made once for all (Hebrews 10:10). If the penalty for sin were unending by its nature, a single finite act would be a strange way to discharge it. How the atonement works is a larger subject than a chapter on judgment can carry, and I am not taking it up. But the emphasis on once bears on the second pillar.
The cross dealt with death; the resurrection reversed it. What then is the second resurrection for? When the rest of the dead rise... One possibility the text raises is that it is a resurrection to both judgment and life, and that those two words belong together rather than in sequence.
On this reading, judgment and grace are not competing forces, one following the other. They are both active, both movements of the same God toward the same purpose. Isaiah 26:9 states, “For when your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness” (ESV). If judgment can teach, can we read it as grace in its corrective form?
The text suggests one more important connection. Revelation 20:14 says that death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire. Paul describes the same final victory in different language: “The last enemy to be destroyed is death” (1 Corinthians 15:26). In both passages, death is not merely weakened or temporarily defeated. It is brought to an end.
Now place these passages beside Romans 6:23: “The wages of sin is death” (KJV). If death is the consequence of sin, then as long as sin continues to produce that consequence, death is still operating as its wage. If sin remains forever and its punishment continues forever, then death also continues in some form. That seems difficult to reconcile with Paul’s declaration that death, the last enemy, will finally be destroyed.
This connection does not prove exactly what happens to those who face final judgment. It rules out one possibility more clearly than it identifies the final outcome. If death is truly abolished, then sin cannot continue producing death forever.
This could happen in at least two ways: either sinners finally cease to exist, or they cease to be sinners.
The first possibility supports conditional immortality; the second supports universal restoration. The language of judgment allows the first possibility, while the wider redemptive movement of Scripture may point toward the second. What this argument challenges most directly is the idea of sin being punished without end, because that would mean its wage continues to be paid even after Scripture says that death has been destroyed.
Your welcome
All throughout the New Testament... The apostles were wrong, as Jesus Himself proved over and over again when He had to correct them over and over again! Now you speak of the one who said we know in part? So how much Did he get taught in Gal 1:11-12? well keep reading... Gal 1:15–18
1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; and admits He sees dimly!!!
Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly,
God has only spoken to around 30 to 40 individuals out of the many Billions of human souls that have ever lived per scripture. And the one who heard from the Son told you He only knows in part! After how many years???
Gal 1:15 But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased 16 to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood,17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went away to Arabia, and returned once more to Damascus. 18 Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas, and stayed with him fifteen days.
You have no idea what Christ taught him...!!! but he tells us it's only a Part! Quit acting like you know it all!
Know this in scripture it's the ones whom assummed they were saved that were the ones who were not, and the one who were suprised they were accepted! Were!
Mat 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
Rejected
Mat 25:37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Accepted
Only one was poor in Spirit! Are you poor in Spirit, or do you claim slavation for your soul as a fact like those in Mat 7:22?
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