Believing in yourself means having the courage to stand on your own two feet

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Wrangler

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I don't think it is inciteful at all.

I guess my sarcasm can be a bit too subtle. Yet, my answer yielded this contradiction & confession.

Yes, I exist outside of time because I am always here and now.

I don't believe in believing anything ... Why believe? Believing just means you don't really know. ...

We need to meet people where they are. I'll write a separate post on this.

you cannot have religion without it.

Very true.
 

Animal2692

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I don't rhink you can believe in yourself the same way as you would believe in a God, since you can confirm yourself to yourself.

I agree. Believing in a God is low key avoiding responsibility in my opinion. I'm saying this because those who believe in a God still take responsibility for many things, but it's only because of God that they're able to, not them. It's just this consistent rejection of the self and it's odd to me because even by claiming God is in control, it's you still choosing to believe that. And then of course you have the devil as the polar opposite as someone to take the blame. You do something bad? The devil took over. "The devil made me do it." And if you don't blame a devil, then you blame the fact that you are broken and fallen, born in sin. To further add insult to injury, you are born in sin due to someone else entirely other than yourself (Eve). So it's just too convenient in my opinion to say you sinned because humans are born in sin. If that's not a way of avoiding the crux of whatever you did wrong, then I don't know what is.

People assume you need a God because you cannot control certain things such as mother nature. And I agree, there are certain things you can't control. But here's the kicker, I dont even need to be able to control mother nature or what other people do. I only need to control my reactions to them. I would not even want to be in control of everything, it would be too tiresome and no fun. Being in control of myself only is simply enough despite whatever may happen. If a hurricane comes and sweeps me up for good, so be it. I did what I could and lived life to the fullest.
 
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Animal2692

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You know what grinds my gears about the whole religious stuff??? It's a human being who's doing all the interpreting of whichever holy book they're following. Does not matter if that particular believer is absolutely convinced that God is behind every word they impart, we only see their lips move, and hear the sounds of the language they use. Other than that, there's nothing I have ever noticed to be coming from a God.

The irony of what you said reminds me of protestants with their Sola Scriptura. It's odd to me that the idea of Sola Scriptura has led to so many denominations. Denominations is just another way of saying 'multiple interpretations'. Before protestantism there was really only catholicism and orthodoxy which are extremely close to one another. Protestants emphasize scripture only and yet the different types of protestants can't even get on the same page. The baptists for example see the pentecostals with their tongues as heretics and vice versa. One scripture....hundreds of denominations. And they want to claim the Bible is the word of God as if human interpretation doesn't exist.
 
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Animal2692

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Well I just hope you can wake up in time to realize that you are wasting precious time contemplating the non existence of time....while everything around you is subject to time. Then suddenly, your time is up and you face your maker. Creator of heaven and earth....just saying View attachment 22700

Everything with a form is subject to time. But there's a part of me that's not subject to time and that's what I call "I". My consciousness, my awareness is not subject to time. Awareness notices the changing, therefore it is itself, changeless and not subject to time. Everything comes and goes but that which notices the comings and goings itself doesn't come and go. There is something here which doesn't come and go and it's that background silence or stillness..even when there's noise and chaos. That's what I truly consider to be "the peace of God that passeth all understanding"
 
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Wrangler

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I don't believe in believing anything ... Why believe? Believing just means you don't really know. ...

You are absolutley right! Why believe? I know you meant it as a rhetorical question but that question deserves it's own thread. If I were to write a book about religion, chapter 1 would be entitled, "Why Believe?"

The basic answer is no one can effectively function without believing what they do not know. We would be paralyzed if we only allowed ourselves to act on what we know.

You undoubtedly heard the satanic mantra, "You should not assume because it makes an a$$ out of u and me." This is a paralyzing theology. I'll give to disparate examples. The 1st example is mundane. You are in bed and the alarm goes off, signaling it is time to get up to go to work. But you do not KNOW if your car was stolen. And even if it was not stolen, you don't KNOW if the battery or starter still work. Since you don't KNOW these things, it could be a waste of time to even get out of bed, only to not be able to get to work.

The 2nd example is high level. Scientific inquiry is grounded in belief. The basic scientific belief is the relationship between effects and causes. Scientist deliberately test this belief in all areas of inquiry. The specific belief or assumption has a technical name, hypothesis. Scientists busy themselves going about hypothesis testing. And the beauty is, their hypothesis does not have to be correct in order to add to human knowledge.

If the hypothesis is right or wrong, they've learned something. "Trial and error" is the scientific way, the way to effectively live and begins with faith.
 

Wrangler

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Other than that, there's nothing I have ever noticed to be coming from a God

In another thread, I provided 5 proofs of God. Proofs of god's existence

I do hope you give this some consideration, starting with what you expect to be indicative of a Creator? (I don't want to hijack this thread. Perhaps you can join the conversation in that thread).
 

Animal2692

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You are absolutley right! Why believe? I know you meant it as a rhetorical question but that question deserves it's own thread. If I were to write a book about religion, chapter 1 would be entitled, "Why Believe?"

The basic answer is no one can effectively function without believing what they do not know. We would be paralyzed if we only allowed ourselves to act on what we know.

You undoubtedly heard the satanic mantra, "You should not assume because it makes an a$$ out of u and me." This is a paralyzing theology. I'll give to disparate examples. The 1st example is mundane. You are in bed and the alarm goes off, signaling it is time to get up to go to work. But you do not KNOW if your car was stolen. And even if it was not stolen, you don't KNOW if the battery or starter still work. Since you don't KNOW these things, it could be a waste of time to even get out of bed, only to not be able to get to work.

The 2nd example is high level. Scientific inquiry is grounded in belief. The basic scientific belief is the relationship between effects and causes. Scientist deliberately test this belief in all areas of inquiry. The specific belief or assumption has a technical name, hypothesis. Scientists busy themselves going about hypothesis testing. And the beauty is, their hypothesis does not have to be correct in order to add to human knowledge.

If the hypothesis is right or wrong, they've learned something. "Trial and error" is the scientific way, the way to effectively live and begins with faith.

Well, scientists also form their hypothesis based off empirical evidence and then they conduct an experiment to test that hypothesis in order to gain more empirical evidence. In religion there's no experiment to be done in an effort to gain empirical evidence. Because of this objective focus, science has contributed much more to humanity than religion ever has in my opinion..albeit with destruction here and there along the way. But nonetheless, we owe a lot to science.

You can believe whatever you want, but how many times have you believed something only for it to be shattered later on? My gripe is when people believe something and forget that it's only a belief subject to doubt and being proven wrong later. They have a belief and confuse it with fact which is why there's so much conflict between religions and religion gets a bad rap for being divisive. If we know that beliefs are subject to scrutiny and change, then why do we act like they're not?
 
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Wrangler

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The irony of what you said reminds me of protestants with their Sola Scriptura. It's odd to me that the idea of Sola Scriptura has led to so many denominations. Denominations is just another way of saying 'multiple interpretations'. Before protestantism there was really only catholicism and orthodoxy which are extremely close to one another. Protestants emphasize scripture only and yet the different types of protestants can't even get on the same page. The baptists for example see the pentecostals with their tongues as heretics and vice versa. One scripture....hundreds of denominations. And they want to claim the Bible is the word of God as if human interpretation doesn't exist.

Great point! The way I see the flowering of denomination is the beauty of God tailoring a different focus that appeals to different groups. No religion has such flowering of denominations to cater to the preferences as Christianity.

Many denominations are more culturally driven than doctrinal dispute driven. For instance, a friend married a woman from South Korea. Guess what congregation she went to? The Korearn church who performed their services in her later tongue. And there is no conflict between one group focusing more or less on different parts of Scripture. We are not all called to missionary work in Africa. Some are called to help in their own backyard.

The Apostle Paul writes that he is all things to all people so that he might save a few. Indeed. I don't speak Korean but thank God some of his children do and spread the Good News to those people. :)
 

Animal2692

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Great point! The way I see the flowering of denomination is the beauty of God tailoring a different focus that appeals to different groups. No religion has such flowering of denominations to cater to the preferences as Christianity.

Many denominations are more culturally driven than doctrinal dispute driven. For instance, a friend married a woman from South Korea. Guess what congregation she went to? The Korearn church who performed their services in her later tongue. And there is no conflict between one group focusing more or less on different parts of Scripture. We are not all called to missionary work in Africa. Some are called to help in their own backyard.

The Apostle Paul writes that he is all things to all people so that he might save a few. Indeed. I don't speak Korean but thank God some of his children do and spread the Good News to those people. :)

One day they agree that faith in Jesus is all that matters and the next day they say only their way is the correct way and that your way is a one way ticket to hell. Just ask any Baptist or Catholic if the Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses are Christians.
 
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Wrangler

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have you believed something only for it to be shattered later on?

Yes, many times.

I am a big Star Trek fan. There is an episode of TNG where Data is talking to Commander Riker about love in relationships and how painful it is when the reality does not meet the initial hope. He asked if that is the risk of having such relationships. Riker smiled and said, "Every single time."

Data retorted that perhaps it is best not to have such relationships, to avoid the heartbreak that is likely to follow. Riker, being a wise Commander, explained that having love in ones life is what makes life worth living and knowing there is risk, makes the love all the more precious.
 
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Animal2692

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Really? You mean to say that you are not more aware of the world around you now than your first memory?

It's not that I am more aware of the world around me now than my first memory. It's that I'm aware of more things. The content increases or decreases, but the awareness doesn't fluctuate. For example when I go to sleep, I'm not focusing on anything. I'm no longer aware of my surroundings. Yet I'm still aware because that's how I still know whether I'm dreaming or not. That's how you can wake up the next day and say you had a dream. How do you know had a dream? Because there was an awareness of it.
 
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Wrangler

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In religion there's no experiment to be done in an effort to gain empirical evidence. Because of this objective focus, science has contributed much more to humanity than religion ever has in my opinion

Wow! Another idea that deserves its own thread!
Science answers the question HOW?
Religion answers the question WHY?

Science's focus is the material, outer world.
Religion's focus is the spiritual, inner world.​

What scientists choose to focuses on is subjective, not objective; it is a choice of the one making the inquiry. Therefore, science and math are much more culturally rooted than many believe. That is, the proclaimed objectivity is an illusion, giving one a false confidence in what is right. Science is wrong many times (Denying there are only 2 genders (as only 2 die from COVID), the deadliness of COVID, the health dangers of the vaccine, the Global Warming hoax, thinning ozone, danger of DDT are but recent examples). No doubt can seriously doubt the politicization of science. A learned person would not have as much faith in it as Western Civilization has done in recent decades.

Read into the hilarious history of the saying 'Blowing Smoke Up One's A$$' for it's scientific origins from 1746.

Having said all that, you are VERY wrong about one thing; that there is no empirical evidence, no objective focus regarding religion. The question is, what evidence will you accept?

Objective benefits are clear. Religion is a pathway to a happier, longer life. And not embracing an abundant life when it is available is not rational.


I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.
Jesus, John 10:10
 

Jane_Doe22

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Well, scientists also form their hypothesis based off empirical evidence and then they conduct an experiment to test that hypothesis in order to gain more empirical evidence. In religion there's no experiment to be done in an effort to gain empirical evidence. Because of this objective focus, science has contributed much more to humanity than religion ever has in my opinion..albeit with destruction here and there along the way. But nonetheless, we owe a lot to science.

You can believe whatever you want, but how many times have you believed something only for it to be shattered later on? My gripe is when people believe something and forget that it's only a belief subject to doubt and being proven wrong later. They have a belief and confuse it with fact which is why there's so much conflict between religions and religion gets a bad rap for being divisive. If we know that beliefs are subject to scrutiny and change, then why do we act like they're not?
Speaking as a religious person AND a trained scientist: in both fields you learn step by step, think and test things out, and make corrections. Sometimes those corrections are major and feels like you just tossed tons of what you “knew” into the bin, along with all the time & energy & personal investment into it. But realistically that time was not wasted, as their were lessons learned along the way that now enables us to move forward.

@Animal2692 , I understand you’ve been burned by your previous religious experience- that’s super rough and my heart goes out to you. There’s that pain, anger, and wrath.

But do NOT generalize all other religious people based on only your experience. Other people have different experiences, and if you fail to honestly study them as well, then you’re not being scientific at all.
 
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Wrangler

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My gripe is when people believe something and forget that it's only a belief subject to doubt and being proven wrong later. They have a belief and confuse it with fact which is why there's so much conflict between religions and religion gets a bad rap for being divisive.

Agreed.

One day they agree that faith in Jesus is all that matters and the next day they say only their way is the correct way and that your way is a one way ticket to hell. Just ask any Baptist or Catholic if the Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses are Christians.

I agree and personally and passionately hate such prosylitizers (who rely on coercion). Yet, I suspect for some people, these denominations who so prosylitize do attract and save some who would otherwise not be saved.
 

Wrangler

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It's that I'm aware of more things.

You cannot believe this.

That is, you cannot believe 'I'm aware of more things' is NOT a change over time.

The content increases or decreases, but the awareness doesn't fluctuate.

You cannot believe this.

That is, you cannot believe that being more aware of more things over time does not increase what you are able to perceive now compared to when you had your first memory. You have grown in stature and wisdom immeasurably since then. For instance, your command of language was not a given, right out of the chute. :p
 

Wrangler

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"The devil made me do it." And if you don't blame a devil, then you blame the fact that you are broken and fallen, born in sin. To further add insult to injury, you are born in sin due to someone else entirely other than yourself (Eve).

This is a tough one that I struggled with for decades myself.

It's about grace. When you realize the weight of the consequences of choices you and others make, your heart is crushed as you KNOW you (or they) failed to meet your own standards and have failed to live up to your own expectations and there is no one you can pass off the blame, then what? You might then say to yourself to 'get over yourself.' But then you realize that you are your own God and cannot. And then you are doomed to despair (or live in denial).
 

Animal2692

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Wow! Another idea that deserves its own thread!
Science answers the question HOW?
Religion answers the question WHY?

Science's focus is the material, outer world.
Religion's focus is the spiritual, inner world.​

What scientists choose to focuses on is subjective, not objective; it is a choice of the one making the inquiry. Therefore, science and math are much more culturally rooted than many believe. That is, the proclaimed objectivity is an illusion, giving one a false confidence in what is right. Science is wrong many times (Denying there are only 2 genders (as only 2 die from COVID), the deadliness of COVID, the health dangers of the vaccine, the Global Warming hoax, thinning ozone, danger of DDT are but recent examples). No doubt can seriously doubt the politicization of science. A learned person would not have as much faith in it as Western Civilization has done in recent decades.

Read into the hilarious history of the saying 'Blowing Smoke Up One's A$$' for it's scientific origins from 1746.

Having said all that, you are VERY wrong about one thing; that there is no empirical evidence, no objective focus regarding religion. The question is, what evidence will you accept?

Objective benefits are clear. Religion is a pathway to a happier, longer life. And not embracing an abundant life when it is available is not rational.


I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.
Jesus, John 10:10

I've heard that one before. "Science answers the how whereas religion answers the why." That why is based on belief, not empirical evidence. Ok, you might argue that there IS empirical evidence because there's trees, animals, and stars around us. But those don't necessarily have to imply that there is a God. That's more post hoc than anything. And going back to what I was saying, you believe because you don't know. In religion, there is no way to verify any answer to 'why', you have to believe it. I just prefer to rely on a more reliable source such as science and if I don't know something, then I just admit that I don't know instead of swapping that not knowing with a belief. I see how you're trying to link belief to science in the sense of scientists make hypotheses but scientists do not hold a belief the same way that religious folks do. A hypothesis is more like an educated guess than anything, they don't necessarily believe that hypothesis, rather they test it via experiment. A religious person simply believes, does not run and cannot run any experiments to verify it.

Science is wrong many times but that doesn't completely invalidate it. It's a tool, I just consider it to be more reliable than religion. Do you want to drive a nail into a piece of wood with your bare hand or with a hammer?

"Religion is like a blind man looking in a black room for a black cat that isn't there, and finding it." Oscar Wilde
 
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Animal2692

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This is a tough one that I struggled with for decades myself.

It's about grace. When you realize the weight of the consequences of choices you and others make, your heart is crushed as you KNOW you (or they) failed to meet your own standards and have failed to live up to your own expectations and there is no one you can pass off the blame, then what? You might then say to yourself to 'get over yourself.' But then you realize that you are your own God and cannot. And then you are doomed to despair (or live in denial).

Well getting over yourself doesn't necessarily mean renouncing yourself, but renouncing whatever limiting beliefs you had about yourself. It just means letting go of whatever baggage you're carrying. If you picked up some baggage, you can also put it back down...because you picked it up. Being my own God, I accept that I'll make mistakes along the way and that's alright. Even if you decide to pass off the blame, it is still you doing it, is it not?
 
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