Believing without seeing (Faith before experience)

[Episkopos]

Wouldn't that be the result of ear-tickling? Comfort for the inner man. ???

Edification is for the inner man...the part of us that's created in God's image. The part of us that is regenerated at new birth.

Condemnation is for the outer man...the part of us that seeks control over our own lives and the lives of others. The part of us that is bent with the sin nature.

 

[amigo de christo]

It's to be expected that people who feel backed into a corner by the truth will lash out. That's the flesh. Religious sounding language is simply weaponized as desired when that happens.

Just consider the possibility that things are not as you think they are....or just stay as you are.

Here goes the great overseer accusing those of what HE DOES .
Epi you need to consider the possibility that things are not AS YOU THINK them to be .
Everything you seem to accuse others of , and i mean everything , you seem to be the ONE WHO is guilty of it

 

[amigo de christo]

Edification is for the inner man...the part of us that's crated in God's image. The part of us that is regenerated at new birth.

Condemnation is for the outer man...the part of us that seeks control over our own lives and the lives of others. The part of us that is bent with the sin nature.

There is no edification given unto to those who beleive not ON JESUS THE CHRIST .
There is but aspects about the truth given by carnal wisdom by which it claims man can attain unto THE TRUTH
and yet WILL NEVER KNOW THE TRUTH . YOU CANT be teaching aspects about the truth
and yet all the while DENY THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH EPI . You teach religoin it will save none .
GOTTA PREACH THE DIRE NEED TO BELIEVE ON JESUS CHRIST , THEN you shall see clearly HOW TO TEACH
HIS TEACHINGS . TILL THEN , you in a pit wherein there is no water and the bottom of that pit
could open any day . WHEN IT DO , In the day and hour IT DOES , your wailing begins .
AND I DONT WANT THAT FOR YOU EPI . TIME TO PREACH BOTH THE DIRE NECESSITY TO BELEIVE ON JESUS
and all HE DID teach n say . Teaching aspects about the scriptures WHILE DENYING THE DIRE NEED
of BELIEVING ON HIM WHO INSPIRED SAID SCRIPTURES , IS VAIN EPI . NUTTING BUT RELIGOIN AND EGO
epi . Now go and learn what that meaneth .

 

[amigo de christo]

No one here is denying the role that self examination plays in a believer's life. And the scripture says in context of self examination that if we would judge ourselves we will not be judged with the world.

Again if you examine what the overseer does and says you will find it is HE who has not examined HIMSELF .
NOT BY THE TRUTH . sure he might examine himself by what HE considers to be truth , by what he calleth the Spirit
But he is EGO LED . man cannot examine himself by the carnal mind . He must do so by the SPIRIT and by the TRUTH
of the WORD OF GOD . AND again if folks BELIEVE they have no NEED TO BELIEVE ON THE SON
well then they do as did the pharisees who examined themselves NOT BY THE WORD , though they indeed read the scrips
BUT RATHER by their own carnal mind and how it twisted such scripture unto their own destruction .
SOmething by grace i learned a long time ago .
Number one . NO MAN who is of GOD would ever even imply there is NO NEED TO BELIEVE ON JESUS CHRIST .
Number two , can a man say I BELIEVE and yet still dont follow HIM . YES that be true too . I SHOULD KNOW i was the worst .
BUT THIS I DO KNOW . NO TRUE LAMB WOULD EVER GO about saying That others have NO NEED TO BELIEVE JESUS IS THE CHRIST .
THAT IS A FACT .
I challenge any and all to go back tothe gospels and SEE IF JESUS ever went about
teaching the concept , OH IT DONT MATTER IF YOU BELIEVE NOT JESUS IS THE CHRIST , Ye can still pick up that cross
ALL WILL STILL BE WELL . YOU WONT FIND IT . JESUS DID AS GOD DID and TOLD HIM TO DO .
GOD TESTIFIED OF THE SON . And even when the jews tried so hard to accuse him
saying YOU testify of your own self . JESUS REMINDED THEM REAL FAST
IS IT NOT WRITTEN that the testimony OF TWO . THE FATHER TESTIFIED OF THE SON . HE DID SO IN EVERY WORD
and WORK JESUS EVER DID . and yet many cliam to know the scrips , YET WONT COME TO HIM
TO HE WHO INSPIRED THE SCRIPS so that they may have LIFE . EPI IS NO DIFFERENT than were the pharisees .
Want proof . THEY WOULD NOT BELIEVE ON JESUS and would attack and cast out any who DID .
EPI lashes out at us WHO REMIND folks YE MUST BELIEVE . HE CALLS THAT EGO and RELIGOIN . The man is doomed
to perditon on the path HE IS on . PERDITION . THUS its why i have tried to help him .
BUT like alexander the coppersmith , HE HAS GREATLY WITHSTOOD those words .

 

[amigo de christo]

Here we go

Those who base their faith on things unseen.. are decieved

Thank you my friend, for telling us all what we have said all along

Lambs must band together now and contend for the true faith , while there still be time to do so .
SO i invite us to reread the entire letter of john .
JOHN who in his short epistle wrote more on love and reminded more on that in that epistle .
YET HIS LOVE sure seemed to include THE DIRE NEED TO BELIEVE ON JESUS AS THE CHRIST , THEN TO LOVE one another .
John who wrote much about love had this to say about the seducers in HIS day .
WHO IS A LIAR . now lets take heed and pay real close attention to that . cause it is written
ALL LIARS shall have their part in the LAKE OF FIRE . THE LAKE OF FIRE , which i assure us IS REAL .
WHO is a liar , HE WHO DENIES that JESUS IS CHRIST . OOPSY all other religoins DO THAT .
YET EPI teaches THEY and others have NO NEED TO BELEIVE JESUS IS THE CHRIST
they too can just pick up that cross , KNOW GOD , be fine .
SO do allow me a reminder , for i did not finish that which john wrote .
WHO IS A LIAR but he who denies JESUS is the CHRIST
HE IS ANTI CHRIST . SO WHAT RELIGOIN , what kind of love or cross
would give the idea we dont NEED TO BELEIVE JESUS IS THE CHRIST , that in fact WE CAN DENY THIS fact
not BELIEVE IT . ANTI CHRIST would . WE got a huge problem and yet for the sake of unity
and fellowship many seem to overlook THIS HUGE PROBLEM .
SO again i will remind us of what john , who knew JESUS wrote .
IF ANY COMES and brings NOT THIS GOSPEL . OOPSY . THIS lamb will not make a bed of unity
with such as DENY THE GOSPEL . I WONT DO IT . I will have NO FELLOWSHIP with the works of darkness .
I SUGGEST folks do the same . IF this were my SITE , EPI WOULD BE BANNED .
Sounds harsh i know . BUT TRY and remember something
I DID TRY and TRY and TRY and TRY to reason with HIM FIRST . BUT that man preaches ANOTHER go spell .
HE is dangerous . HE refuses to repent and not only that
but no matter how often MANY and myself have tried to correct him , NOT ONLY does he not heed it
HE DOUBLES DOWN ALL EFFORTS to expose US as false . NOW this needs to be dealt with .
Since the mods wont ban him . I SUGGEST lambs start doing that which is necessary .
DELIVER HIM OVER TO GOD and lET GOD JUDGE HIM
and I do pray HE REPENTS . But his doctrine is deadly .

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Edification is for the inner man...the part of us that's created in God's image. The part of us that is regenerated at new birth.

Condemnation is for the outer man...the part of us that seeks control over our own lives and the lives of others. The part of us that is bent with the sin nature.

Regeneration is for the spirit.

It is dead and must be born.. This is what it means to be born again.

A dead spirit can not enter into the presence of God. that is why only the high priest could enter. and even him, only once a year after he sacrificed numerous animals for his sin, and the only reason he was even allowed in was to spill the blood of the animal on the mercy seat. so the sin of the people was covered (atoned)

but this is foreign to you I guess.

 

[Episkopos]

Regeneration is for the spirit.

It is dead and must be born.. This is what it means to be born again.

A dead spirit can not enter into the presence of God. that is why only the high priest could enter. and even him, only once a year after he sacrificed numerous animals for his sin, and the only reason he was even allowed in was to spill the blood of the animal on the mercy seat. so the sin of the people was covered (atoned)

but this is foreign to you I guess.

I do podcast videos to help people out of their lack of proper instruction.

But you can't learn anything if you don't watch them...

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I do podcast videos to help people out of their lack of proper instruction.

But you can't learn anything if you don't watch them...

Why would I watch them if you prove over and over what you say that you do not understand.

Forgiveness is based on atonment. Without atonement there is no forgiveness.

Thats what the OT law showed..

its obvious you have failed to grasp the law like most jews did

no podcast you can post will help you with this. Only a study of the word and a repentance from religion will

and @Laurina and @faithfulness I pray you learn to study this for yourself.. because I truly fear for both of you

 

[Episkopos]

Why would I watch them if you prove over and over what you say that you do not understand.

Forgiveness is based on atonment. Without atonement there is no forgiveness.

Thats what the OT law showed..

its obvious you have failed to grasp the law like most jews did

no podcast you can post will help you with this. Only a study of the word and a repentance from religion will

and @Laurina and @faithfulness I pray you learn to study this for yourself.. because I truly fear for both of you

Thankfully, not everyone here has drunk the kool-aid like you and your like. A few still receive sound doctrine. Your insistence on believing a lie, although popular at this time, and until Babylon is exposed and destroyed, has a time limit. Better to repent now.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Thankfully, not everyone here has drunk the kool-aid like you and your like.

Sadly. To many drink the Kool-Aid you are offering.

A few still receive sound doctrine. Your insistence on believing a lie, although popular at this time, and until Babylon is exposed and destroyed, has a time limit. Better to repent now.

No one is recieving sound doctrine from you. Once again. You do not even understand the law. how can you teach what you do not understand?

again, You opened an OP on faith in unseen. Yet everything you propose is based on things seen. and you attack those who have true faith in the unseen.

You contradict yourself as usual.

 

[Episkopos]

Sadly. To many drink the Kool-Aid you are offering.

No one is recieving sound doctrine from you. Once again. You do not even understand the law. how can you teach what you do not understand?

again, You opened an OP on faith in unseen. Yet everything you propose is based on things seen. and you attack those who have true faith in the unseen.

You contradict yourself as usual.

Make believe beliefs you mean. Real faith has power. Read the bible.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Make believe beliefs you mean. Real faith has power. Read the bible.

Your right it does have power.

Power to save

Power to walk

And power to overcome.

so why do you not have faith to recieve the power that saves? Why are you still trying to save yourself?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Thomas was unbelieving until Jesus appeared to him. Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Are we like Thomas who only relied on past experience to judge what is possible and what is impossible?

Do we have faith...enough faith to be qualified as having such by the Lord? Isn't the duty of a believer to believe? Yet, Jesus asks.... that when He returns, will He find faith on the earth.

If we take all the various experiences of everyone in the church...a little bit of this, a little bit of that...and if we rely on those experiences to inform the faith of individual believers...without trying to form one big picture, you get a fragmented jumble of disjointed pieces, like an undone puzzle.

Who can see the bigger picture that is able to put all those seemingly unconnected experiences into a harmonious whole? And how can we trust that anyone has a greater gift than we do to accomplish the task?

Can we trust local pastors to see to the unity of the wider body? No, they are only concerned with their own flock...their own franchise...and are usually so dogmatically prejudiced that they are seeking only those who fit into their category.

Does the religious system operate by faith? No. It is by religious beliefs. Who then is sent by God to bring the body together? I'm not talking about hirelings or denominational appointees by men...no, who is sent by God? Has God left us rudderless...left us to our own devices and experiences? Do we care about God's church or just ourselves?

Unless we have faith in God that this can be accomplished...bringing the church into a singleness of mind and heart...then the church will be overcome by the world and deviated from God's purpose by human agendas.


What say you?

Believing without seeing (Faith before experience)​

Love your title heading. It points again to one of my favorite passages because there is so much hope in it of “believing without seeing(Faith before experience)”

If we’d pay attention Paul believes without seeing, Paul has Faith in Christ before experience. We say blessed are those who have not seen yet still believe …are those who do not and have not seen (witnessed) Christ but still believe. yet Paul did see Christ. Paul Witnessed Christ being taught of the Revelation of Christ. Saying multiple times Christ stood and spoke to him on the ship, even telling his when and where to go. It is easier to say we see Christ in our own walk but to me Paul expounds on what “believing without seeing(Faith before experience)” is “towards others” who have not seen.

Does Paul (Christ speaking in Paul) “believe without seeing(Faith before experience)” in the following?
Since you seek proof of Christ speaking in me which is not weak (as you claim Christ speaking in me is weak) but is mighty in you.

Here Christ speaking in Paul gives proof
“Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. (Believing without seeing, Faith before experience)…Christ is going to speak to them through Paul. Have no fellowship with unfruitful work of darkness, but rather reprove them. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. But things that are reproved are brought to the light: for whatsoever makes manifest is the Light of Christ. Christ speaking in Paul’s call to them “Awake you that sleep arise from the dead and Christ will give you Light”

Paul speaks to them in the passage where they are calling him a reprobate…basically a liar as they called and are calling Christ a liar. There works are darkness are unfruitful. Paul knows this is death in them. Yet Paul urges them on to better. Paul has No fellowship with their claims of they fail and are as reprobates. Instead Christ in Paul intreats them to come to the Light … here is belief in what is not seen, Faith before experience Paul calls “I trust (in Christ) you Will know we are not reprobates. I trust you will know we do not fail. We are not unapproved.
I pray you do no evil not so we appear approved but that you learn of God being taught of Him to do that which is honest (made manifest being brought into the Light). We rejoice when we are weak and YOU are strong. This we believe not in sight that we are weak in Him as He was also crucified in weakness, but have Faith he Lives and we also Live by the power of God towards YOU. We also wish for your perfection.

That is active Faith. It isn’t Paul talking a lot of hoopla nonsense but believing Christ raises up the dead unto Life, Faith before experience. That they will see…

 

[St. SteVen]

If we’d pay attention Paul believes without seeing, Paul has Faith in Christ before experience.

How literal should we be with the "seeing" aspect?
We could say, as you have done, that Paul believed in Christ without "seeing" (Christ).
But his encounter with Christ on the road to Damascus was an "eye-opener". - LOL

So, if we define "seeing" as having concrete evidence, where does that put Saul (Paul)?
Should we add the other four senses? Or even consider an internal spiritual witness?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

How literal should we be with the "seeing" aspect?
We could say, as you have done, that Paul believed in Christ without "seeing" (Christ).
But his encounter with Christ on the road to Damascus was an "eye-opener". - LOL

Exactly. Still think 2 Corinthians 13:3-10 tells of believing without (before) seeing, Faith before experience. Yet Hope. Which has nothing (Imo) to do with Paul hasn’t witnessed Christ but instead he hasn’t witnessed Christ in them but believes they will see what they haven’t seen, Faith before experience …another is “I am persuaded better things of you” by who? Is “better things” of you the power of God towards you which is mighty, therefore Paul said I live by Faith in Christ by whom I have been persuaded of better things to come. How can someone be persuaded of better things to come while being accused as being a reprobate? Only way I know is by Faith in Christ.

 

[St. SteVen]

Exactly. Still think 2 Corinthians 13:3-10 tells of believing without (before) seeing, Faith before experience. Yet Hope. Which has nothing (Imo) to do with Paul hasn’t witnessed Christ but instead he hasn’t witnessed Christ in them but believes they will see what they haven’t seen, Faith before experience …another is “I am persuaded better things of you” by who? Is “better things” of you the power of God towards you which is mighty, therefore Paul said I live by Faith in Christ by whom I have been persuaded of better things to come. How can someone be persuaded of better things to come while being accused as being a reprobate? Only way I know is by Faith in Christ.

I agree.
Something has been bothering me about this whole topic since I first saw it.
Which appears in the OP.

Thomas was unbelieving until Jesus appeared to him. Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Seems we have used the "blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." phrase as a way of patting ourselves on the back.
Even labeled Thomas as "Doubting Thomas", as in: DON'T be a Doubting Thomas.

On the other hand we are admonished to NOT be gullible, but be good Bereans, testing what we hear against the Bible.
Didn't Peter run to the grave after receiving the news of Jesus resurrection from the dead? To TEST what he had heard. To SEE for himself.
Rather than believing the report as given. Perhaps we've been too hard on Thomas?

.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Reminds me of “a prayer of Faith shall save the sick” twice at least in these few verses “a prayer of Faith shall save the sick” is prayed in trust of what not yet seen will be made seen.

Who is sick? Those who despise their brothers whom they have seen …then how can they love God? For if you hate your brother then you haven’t seen God and the love of God is not in you. you remain in darkness still. Evident in they stand as the accusers of their brothers. “Y’all weak reprobates”

But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test. (How bold to say “I trust” “we ourselves do not fail the test”)

Now I Pray (a prayer of Faith) that you do no wrong; not that we may appear approved, but that you may do what is right …you yourselves being taught of God that you ought to love your brothers… even though we may appear unapproved. (Judged by sight as “unapproved” yet “approved” by Faith in Christ.
For we ourselves can do nothing against (Christ) the truth, but (only) for (Christ) the truth.
For we rejoice when we ourselves are weak (crucified with Christ) but you are strong (raised up from the dead, for we will be present with you alive in Christ) this we also pray for (a prayer of Faith in Christ that shall save the sick) that you be made complete.

Or that is what it means to me. It is very Hope filled what is happening there between brothers.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I agree.
Something has been bothering me about this whole topic since I first saw it.
Which appears in the OP.

Seems we have used the "blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." phrase as a way of patting ourselves on the back.
Even labeled Thomas as "Doubting Thomas", as in: DON'T be a Doubting Thomas.

On the other hand we are admonished to NOT be gullible, but be good Bereans, testing what we hear against the Bible.
Didn't Peter run to the grave after receiving the news of Jesus resurrection from the dead? To TEST what he had heard. To SEE for himself.
Rather than believing the report as given. Perhaps we've been too hard on Thomas?

.

I think so too. I didn’t until taking a closer look at it this morning. I can relate the most to doubting Thomas. I always have because of his timidness I’ve always rooted for Thomas. Because I can so relate to him the most. Something that stood out one day to me that helped though is …and I probably won’t be able to find it now. But Thomas is instructed that the spirit given unto him of timidness and doubt and fear unto bondage again is not the Spirit God gives unto Thomas. And to grow instead in the Spirit God gives unto Thomas of power and of Love and of a Sound Mind. That stood out to me as no I don’t see Thomas as someone to whip or ridicule but that he is like all of us, all men who have walked in the spirit the world gives one of fear unto bondage. But God gives unto Thomas the Spirit of God: of power, of love and of a Sound Mind. In Christ.

 

[St. SteVen]

I think so too. I didn’t until taking a closer look at it this morning. I can relate the most to doubting Thomas. I always have because of his timidness I’ve always rooted for Thomas. Because I can so relate to him the most. Something that stood out one day to me that helped though is …and I probably won’t be able to find it now. But Thomas is instructed that the spirit given unto him of timidness and doubt and fear unto bondage again is not the Spirit God gives unto Thomas. And to grow instead in the Spirit God gives unto Thomas of power and of Love and of a Sound Mind. That stood out to me as no I don’t see Thomas as someone to whip or ridicule but that he is like all of us, all men who have walked in the spirit the world gives one of fear unto bondage. But God gives unto Thomas the Spirit of God: of power, of love and of a Sound Mind. In Christ.

Yes, I agree.
It just occurred to me that everyone in the room had "seen" except for Thomas.
Yet we count them among those who believe that have NOT seen? ???
There was no criticism for the others, who HAD seen before they believed.

 

[St. SteVen]

Reminds me of “a prayer of Faith shall save the sick” twice at least in these few verses “a prayer of Faith shall save the sick” is prayed in trust of what not yet seen will be made seen.

Yes, speak to the mountain and it SHALL be moved. (thrown into the sea) ???
I can't speak for everyone else, but that has rarely worked for me.
I did my part, but the mountain remains. Go with Plan B?