Believing without seeing (Faith before experience)

[Lizbeth]

Self-interest aside...what about the larger body coming into oneness as Jesus prayed it would?

I know that most are preoccupied with themselves...as they have been conditioned to be. The devil controls us much easier when all we are concerned with is our own aspirations.

But who has zeal for the Lord's house? Who has a heart like David in this?

Are Catholics the only ones to offer a universal standard of unity?

People will nod their head when it says...the Head of every man is Christ. But without a true witness to that, we could say that the head of every man is himself...to self-determine.

The religious system in the West is structured around the individualism of the greater temporal society. What about the society of God...what about the eternal kingdom order?

You err if you believe that unity comes with our careful observation, like religious Jews and Catholics do.

 

[Episkopos]

You err if you believe that unity comes with our careful observation, like religious Jews and Catholics do.

A careful observation? Where did you get that from? I think your careless reading of my posts mirrors your careless reading of the bible to come out with a twisted version of what you are attempting to read.

Have you any other method of communication beside reading and writing?

 

[Nancy]

1 Corinthians 2:2
"For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified."

There is the unity. Too simple I suppose
HUGS!

 

[ChristisGod]

1 Corinthians 2:2
"For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified."

There is the unity. Too simple I suppose
HUGS!

Amen !!!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

1 Corinthians 2:2
"For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified."

There is the unity. Too simple I suppose
HUGS!

Amen and Amen

 

[Episkopos]

1 Corinthians 2:2
"For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified."

There is the unity. Too simple I suppose
HUGS!

Yup...too simple. Too many ways to interpret Paul's statement. The Jews were expecting a conquering Messiah...but Paul recognized that God sent a suffering Messiah who would ultimately be put to death on a Roman cross. So that verse is about no longer expecting a political Messiah the way the Jews did.


It's too easy for dogmatic religionists to adopt whatever slogan seems to support an irresponsible response to a misunderstood gospel. In this case I don't think many here once championed a political Messiah...so it has really nothing to do with us.

The greasy grace modern gospel thinks that God is looking for a few thumbs up and for preferential treatment based on a self-serving acceptance of a free offer of salvation ...which is actually just a sample of a full product based on joining Christ in His death in order to also raised with Him.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yup...too simple. Too many ways to interpret Paul's statement. The Jews were expecting a conquering Messiah...but Paul recognized that God sent a suffering Messiah who would ultimately be put to death on a Roman cross. So that verse is about no longer expecting a political Messiah the way the Jews did.


It's too easy for dogmatic religionists to adopt whatever slogan seems to support an irresponsible response to a misunderstood gospel. In this case I don't think many here once championed a political Messiah...so it has really nothing to do with us.

The greasy grace modern gospel thinks that God is looking for a few thumbs up and for preferential treatment based on a self-serving acceptance of a free offer of salvation ...which is actually just a sample of a full product based on joining Christ in His death in order to also raised with Him.

Yep

The Jews expected a physical messiah and a physical kingdom

They failed to realize that their sin issue must be taken care of first. that no matter how hard they worked or how good they were. they were lost. As Jesus told the pharisee Nicodemus, You must first be born again.

Nicodemus finally got what Jesus meant.

Sadly. Many of Gods so called people (the jews and the church) have not gotten this yet. they are still waiting for God to just free them, when they are still dead..

Thats what the crucifixion is about.. Its about the atonment by the lamb of God for our sins.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I thought this thread was about faith in the unseen?

 

[marks]

I have unity with everyone who has faith in Christ, who have recieved him through faith. and have been adopted into his family.

Yeah, that's the thing. I too have unity with those who are trusting in Christ. Those who trust in their works or something beside Christ Himself, no, there is not that unity.

Personally, I find that the Body of Christ is much more unified than some give credit.

But then there are many who claim a Christianity but who are not actually God's children.

Much love!

 

[ScottA]

Thomas was unbelieving until Jesus appeared to him. Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Are we like Thomas who only relied on past experience to judge what is possible and what is impossible?

Do we have faith...enough faith to be qualified as having such by the Lord? Isn't the duty of a believer to believe? Yet, Jesus asks.... that when He returns, will He find faith on the earth.

If we take all the various experiences of everyone in the church...a little bit of this, a little bit of that...and if we rely on those experiences to inform the faith of individual believers...without trying to form one big picture, you get a fragmented jumble of disjointed pieces, like an undone puzzle.

Who can see the bigger picture that is able to put all those seemingly unconnected experiences into a harmonious whole? And how can we trust that anyone has a greater gift than we do to accomplish the task?

Can we trust local pastors to see to the unity of the wider body? No, they are only concerned with their own flock...their own franchise...and are usually so dogmatically prejudiced that they are seeking only those who fit into their category.

Does the religious system operate by faith? No. It is by religious beliefs. Who then is sent by God to bring the body together? I'm not talking about hirelings or denominational appointees by men...no, who is sent by God? Has God left us rudderless...left us to our own devices and experiences? Do we care about God's church or just ourselves?

Unless we have faith in God that this can be accomplished...bringing the church into a singleness of mind and heart...then the church will be overcome by the world and deviated from God's purpose by human agendas.


What say you?

The church being a body of many [different] members rightly only has unity, not in being alike, but rather by being under One head, whom is Christ Jesus.

Faith is an interesting thing--to say the least. Faith is the response of believing as if knowing what is not actually known but felt within ones core or heart. Even so, amongst the many who only believe, the sure truth is actually known with out mere "belief" or faith, but as given by God to a few that become His witnesses--yes sent, by God as the sure foundation upon which faith can and does build by the spirit of God regardless of works which then are also sure to follow. It is by this kind of faith that we "lay up treasure in heaven"--as if putting our money where our mouth is, we invest in what we ourselves have only believed; while others who have come to know what many only believe, lay up treasure not by faith per se, but by acts in accordance with what we know to be true in spite of the crowds who may still have questions, whether believing or denying. Each, whether believing or knowing, have their own version to endure unto the end-- the one not seeing, and the other seeing against the greater tide...which tide is often the result of conjecture, unfortunately.

The one thing that bothers me most...is the lack of expectancy of things clearly foretold regarding what is actually not true and yet taught among the church as if it were. Very few expect to be corrected for false doctrine, in spite of the fact that it is a biblical reality of grand proportion.

 

[Episkopos]

Yep

The Jews expected a physical messiah and a physical kingdom

They failed to realize that their sin issue must be taken care of first. that no matter how hard they worked or how good they were. they were lost. As Jesus told the pharisee Nicodemus, You must first be born again.

Nicodemus finally got what Jesus meant.

Sadly. Many of Gods so called people (the jews and the church) have not gotten this yet. they are still waiting for God to just free them, when they are still dead..

Thats what the crucifixion is about.. Its about the atonment by the lamb of God for our sins.

Speaking of dogmatic....actually Jesus died for the sins of the world. People can try excluding those whom Jesus died for...and we'll see how that turns out.

 

[Mikey-for-sure]

You have far less than either of these. You have no unity, only a self-interested religious system adherence based on preference...and only a pretend righteousness based on your high opinion of your own beliefs.

This thread is about believing that there is such a thing as a corporate Body of Christ that can be presented to the world.

There is a lot of pessimism about this. Will the true church unite before the end?

Unity is feasible only after the fall of babylon.

Revelation 18:2
And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Revelation 17:17
For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Only then can the higher walk of zion be done in earnest free of unbelief (delusion)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yeah, that's the thing. I too have unity with those who are trusting in Christ. Those who trust in their works or something beside Christ Himself, no, there is not that unity.

Personally, I find that the Body of Christ is much more unified than some give credit.

But then there are many who claim a Christianity but who are not actually God's children.

Much love!

Thats because people look to denominations and things that divide us and not to the gospel and things that unit us..

It’s like the US right now. It is all me me me.. not we we we

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Speaking of dogmatic....actually Jesus died for the sins of the world. People can try excluding those whom Jesus died for...and we'll see how that turns out.

Who is excluding anyone?

Your right he was hung on the cross for the sins of the world.

But only those who have FAITH in what he did, and look to him are born again and have eternal life.

People seperate themselves through unbelief. It is not God who separates them

 

[Episkopos]

Who is excluding anyone?

Your right he was hung on the cross for the sins of the world.

But only those who have FAITH in what he did,

That is plainly ridiculous. Are you saying that only those who claim His sacrifice can have it? That's is the silliest notion. You are exalting a self-interested belief. God is not for that at all. But you would have to know God a little to realize that.

Are you the one to judge yourself as righteous based on your beliefs? Or is there a judgment day coming where all shall give an account of themselves.

You flatter yourself in an egotistical pride that will be stripped away soon enough.

and look to him are born again and have eternal life.

That's not how it works. Those who are born again have a taste of the divine life...as a sample...meant to attract them to God. We love Him because He first loved us. Taste and see that the Lord is good.

When I see people not understanding (even a mocking incredulous posturing) that being born of the Spirit means an entering into an eternal consciousness...I wonder just how much human manipulation goes into all the religious claims of people.

People seperate themselves through unbelief. It is not God who separates them

Your scheme is so easy-peasy because it isn't real. In your view all one has to do is nod one's approval of Christ's sacrifice being all about you...and its a done deal. Maybe in your own mind.

The "what's in it for me" Western attitude, is not of God. Why can't people fathom that? The mind boggles.

The "name it claim it" crowd preaches a false gospel...a selfish gospel that seeks to shut out those whom Christ died for. Does that scheme have any truth to it at all? No.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That is plainly ridiculous. Are you saying that only those who claim His sacrifice can have it?

No, I said what Jesus said. That whoever believes in him will NEVER DIE and HAS ETERNAL LIFE

That's is the silliest notion. You are exalting a self-interested belief. God is not for that at all. But you would have to know God a little to realize that.

One things is for sure. You do not know God.

Are you the one to judge yourself as righteous based on your beliefs? Or is there a judgment day coming where all shall give an account of themselves.

You flatter yourself in an egotistical pride that will be stripped away soon enough.

I am not the one boasting in myself my friend. You opened a thread about blind faith. Yet all you have spoken of since you opened it is afaith in things which are seen.

That's not how it works. Those who are born again have a taste of the divine life...

Thats not how it works. Those who are born again are alive in Christ, new creation in christ.

They WILL taste the life of the spirit..Its not that they HAVE to..

as a sample...meant to attract them to God. We love Him because He first loved us. Taste and see that the Lord is good.

The lord is good. He is so good. He came as the lamb of God who took the sin of the world. So we could be made the righteousness of christ in him

When I see people not understanding (even a mocking incredulous posturing) that being born of the Spirit means an entering into an eternal consciousness...I wonder just how much human manipulation goes into all the religious claims of people.

You want to see human manipulation. Read your posts. It is full of them

Your scheme is so easy-peasy because it isn't real. In your view all one has to do is nod one's approval of Christ's sacrifice being all about you...and its a done deal. Maybe in your own mind.

The "what's in it for me" Western attitude, is not of God. Why can't people fathom that? The mind boggles.

The "name it claim it" crowd preaches a false gospel...a selfish gospel that seeks to shut out those whom Christ died for. Does that scheme have any truth to it at all? No.

You know. I bet the jews who refused to look t the serpent on the pole that that it was to easy easy also. So in unbelief they kept walking and died.

That and you just shows how hard it is to just look at the cross in faith and recieve the salvation God wants to give you.

you want to earn something you will never earn.

 

[Episkopos]

Unity is feasible only after the fall of babylon.

Revelation 18:2
And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Revelation 17:17
For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Only then can the higher walk of zion be done in earnest free of unbelief (delusion)

There is wisdom in your response. Great post!

 

[Episkopos]

No, I said what Jesus said. That whoever believes in him will NEVER DIE and HAS ETERNAL LIFE

One things is for sure. You do not know God.

From your perspective, life is death and death is life. So yes from your perspective I'm the one that doesn't know God.

Those who enter INTO (eis) Jesus have...to walk in right now...eternal life. The sample of grace at regeneration is a sample of His life. Going to Jesus to enter INTO Him one finds the full measure of grace which is His resurrection life.

You are basing a whole understanding of the gospel on a surface reading of the bible. The bible is understood by the Spirit and not meant to make up religious schemes with.

I am not the one boasting in myself my friend. You opened a thread about blind faith. Yet all you have spoken of since you opened it is afaith in things which are seen.

We have to believe something is before we believe in it. Jesus came to bring His Bride His life...an eternal life. We enter into that life by believing INTO Him...to be where He is. If you don't believe that is possible...you will NEVER seek, ask, or knock, for it.

Thats not how it works. Those who are born again are alive in Christ, new creation in christ.

They WILL taste the life of the spirit..Its not that they HAVE to..

The lord is good. He is so good. He came as the lamb of God who took the sin of the world. So we could be made the righteousness of christ in him

The key word is IN Him..for those who believe INTO Him.

You want to see human manipulation. Read your posts. It is full of them

Using the opposite rule....yes.

You know. I bet the jews who refused to look t the serpent on the pole that that it was to easy easy also. So in unbelief they kept walking and died.

That's it? That's all there is? Look at a bible or an imagined Jesus...and live?

That and you just shows how hard it is to just look at the cross in faith and recieve the salvation God wants to give you.

you want to earn something you will never earn.

I'm talking about actual faith that moves God....and translates the saint into God's real holy presence ...you are talking of a religious scheme that people justify themselves in.

You think that praying is earning? Do you ever pray? Or is that works?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Do we have faith...enough faith to be qualified as having such by the Lord? Isn't the duty of a believer to believe? Yet, Jesus asks.... that when He returns, will He find faith on the earth.

Faith is a gift and God gives different amounts in accordance to His purpose and plans for that individual; some have great faith and others have weak faith. We are respinsible to care for that gift, nourish it. Spiritual gifts are to be used prayerfully, diligently.

Unless we have faith in God that this can be accomplished...bringing the church into a singleness of mind and heart...then the church will be overcome by the world and deviated from God's purpose by human agendas.

You don't seem to trust in the sovereignty of God. The Holy Spirit is in control and His plan is being accomplished. You seem to think man is screwing it up. You don't trust local Pastors as if God is not working through them. Some are better than others, some are not Spirit -filled; so you have to find one. We see many imperfections all around and so on the outside, no church is perfect! We might hear a few doctrines that are off and check that church off your list, then another and another until it seems none are worthy. That is an unfair judgment, a chopping block that leaves you all alone. So now you decide to set up your own church or blog and really teach everyone the real truth - because local churches don't have it! Don't deceive yourself and realize this: God factors in all our errors. The Body is a mixed bag of forgiven misfits outwardly, but spiritually, we are purified, as ONE. What you see is the sin and errors, false doctrines (not admitting that YOU have them). But which ones are false, yours or my mine, or just maybe most of Christianity is off kilter? No, God is right on schedule with His plan and the Church is right where He expected it to be.
I have never agreed 100% of the time with my Pastor, probably 98%: but he taught me so much and I am grateful had found the right church after going too many in my area. I've learned from dozens of scholars and don't believe I am 100% with any of them either, but close. You have to check out many before you find home. There is always one out there for you, God prepared one for you, or do you think He wants you to go off on your own? I have been to many churches once and would likely not return. But if there was only one in a fifty mile radius,, I'd go to that one and give and receive whatever I could.

 

[Episkopos]

Faith is a gift and God gives different amounts in accordance to His purpose and plans for that individual; some have great faith and others have weak faith. We are respinsible to care for that gift, nourish it. Spiritual gifts are to be used prayerfully, diligently.

You don't seem to trust in the sovereignty of God. The Holy Spirit is in control and His plan is being accomplished. You seem to think man is screwing it up. You don't trust local Pastors as if God is not working through them. Some are better than others, some are not Spirit -filled; so you have to find one. We see many imperfections all around and so on the outside, no church is perfect! We might hear a few doctrines that are off and check that church off your list, then another and another until it seems none are worthy. That is an unfair judgment, a chopping block that leaves you all alone. So now you decide to set up your own church or blog and really teach everyone the real truth - because local churches don't have it! Don't deceive yourself and realize this: God factors in all our errors. The Body is a mixed bag of forgiven misfits outwardly, but spiritually, we are purified, as ONE. What you see is the sin and errors, false doctrines (not admitting that YOU have them). But which ones are false, yours or my mine, or just maybe most of Christianity is off kilter? No, God is right on schedule with His plan and the Church is right where He expected it to be.
I have never agreed 100% of the time with my Pastor, probably 98%: but he taught me so much and I am grateful had found the right church after going too many in my area. I've learned from dozens of scholars and don't believe I am 100% with any of them either, but close. You have to check out many before you find home. There is always one out there for you, God prepared one for you, or do you think He wants you to go off on your own? I have been to many churches once and would likely not return. But if there was only one in a fifty mile radius,, I'd go to that one and give and receive whatever I could.

Have you not settled for what appeals to you? The religious product is designed to be bought. How can you trust your own discernment when so many choose other preferences than your own? What qualifies you as a chief inspector? How do you know you have merely chosen one human option among many?

I believe the truth is found by a full consecration in seeking God directly...not sampling religious products. But few will be that diligent. Most will settle for what is convenient.