Believing without seeing (Faith before experience)

[St. SteVen]

This thread is about believing that there is such a thing as a corporate Body of Christ that can be presented to the world.

Putting denominational and personal agendas aside would help greatly.

There is a lot of pessimism about this. Will the true church unite before the end?

Do we need to?
Perhaps it is more about accepting EVERYONE in the body DESPITE our differences.
Our current battle is against our own flesh and blood, not our spiritual enemy.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Wrong again. It's those who base their BELIEFS on things unseen, to puff up their religious outer man...are deceived.

Well its a good thing no one here is puffing themselves up in the religious man.

well except maybe you and your followers.

Judgment will reveal this as per the biblical testimony. I don't expect all the self-aggrandizing responders to understand this. I write these things to warn the wise.

You can't warn people when you yourself need warned.

You keep attacking people who trust God and God alone.. and refuse to puff themself up.. While almost every post you make is a post to puff yourself up.

You are being warned. like you have in ever chatroom you have visited..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Sadly, yes.

As I understand it, Catholics surrender their own personal beliefs, assuming they ever had any,
to the authority and rule of the religious institution, that claims they have that authority.
(our way or the highway)

That's what unity looks like. Any takers?

Is this the way the church started? I think you make a great point here..

 

[St. SteVen]

Based on our own past experience we can't imagine a unified church. However, the church began when ALL experienced the grace from heaven in a common event, Pentecost. Do we need a new Pentecost whereby nobody has to say to his fellow believer.."know the Lord?!

I suppose we need to determine what went wrong after the first Pentecost.
History tends to repeat itself.

You may have gathered from many of my previous topics that I am more focused on tolerance and inclusiveness than unity.
Unity requires changing EVERYONE to fall in line under one standard. (not going to happen) And who decides what standard?
But tolerance and inclusiveness requires individual change. And preserves your personal standard. (this could happen)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I suppose we need to determine what went wrong after the first Pentecost.
History tends to repeat itself.

You may have gathered from many of my previous topics that I am more focused on tolerance and inclusiveness than unity.
Unity requires changing EVERYONE to fall in line under one standard. (not going to happen) And who decides what standard?
But tolerance and inclusiveness requires individual change. And preserves your personal standard. (this could happen)

there is only one item we all need to be unified on.

Most differences in denomination are based on a few doctrines and how they play church

 

[Episkopos]

Sadly, yes.

As I understand it, Catholics surrender their own personal beliefs, assuming they ever had any,
to the authority and rule of the religious institution, that claims they have that authority.
(our way or the highway)

That's what unity looks like. Any takers?

It's one option for religious consumers! The unity thing is attractive. The humility thing is good. In stark contrast to protestant...me and my churchy thing.

For me, the only reason to abandon a human hierarchical system is for something directly from God. My wife and I were called out of the system to break bread from house to house in 1990. While the road has been long and perilous, the depth of encounter with the Lord is worth every difficulty. Experiencing a revival changes everything.


What I think isn't worth a hill of beans is to create religious franchises whereby hucksters peddle their form of twisted doctrine...molly coddling the flesh to puff up the outer man. Definitely something to avoid.

 

[Episkopos]

I suppose we need to determine what went wrong after the first Pentecost.
History tends to repeat itself.

You may have gathered from many of my previous topics that I am more focused on tolerance and inclusiveness than unity.
Unity requires changing EVERYONE to fall in line under one standard. (not going to happen) And who decides what standard?
But tolerance and inclusiveness requires individual change. And preserves your personal standard. (this could happen)

Although I don't see settling for the status quo as being acceptable...I do think your take on things is superior to the judgmental mindset of those who have been indoctrinated into thinking they are somehow more special to God than others.

 

[Behold]

What I teach against is religious certainty based on dogmatic beliefs

Here is how you go to heaven.
Nothing else, will get you there.

Jesus said...."You MUST be born again"..

And that is not by works or water.

 

[Ritajanice]

Wrong again. It's those who base their BELIEFS on things unseen, to puff up their religious outer man...are deceived.

Judgment will reveal this as per the biblical testimony. I don't expect all the self-aggrandizing responders to understand this. I write these things to warn the wise.

When we are “ birthed in the Spirit “ that is “ unseen”.....did you see the Holy Spirit.....birthing your spirit into his?

 

[Ritajanice]

Here is how you go to heaven.
Nothing else, will get you there.

Jesus said...."You MUST be born again"..

And that is not by works or water.

Does he actually understand what “ Born Again “ mean?

 

[Behold]

Does he actually understand what “ Born Again “ mean?

Is it possible to refer to Jesus as a "whipping boy" as he does, and to the Grace of God as "free stuff" and him understand your question?

I asked Him to explain Why Jesus who saves us, keeps us saved..

He's not ready for that Doctrine yet, as its CROSS RELATED.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Although I don't see settling for the status quo as being acceptable...I do think your take on things is superior to the judgmental mindset of those who have been indoctrinated into thinking they are somehow more special to God than others.

You mean like you?

 

[St. SteVen]

For me, the only reason to abandon a human hierarchical system is for something directly from God. My wife and I were called out of the system to break bread from house to house in 1990. While the road has been long and perilous, the depth of encounter with the Lord is worth every difficulty. Experiencing a revival changes everything.

I haven't looked at the current stats, but it seems there is a move away from the institutional church. On the other hand,
I can see the value of the cooperative effort to build something that facilitates a comfortable environment to meet in.

I was involved for a short time helping out with a church plant extension of the church we were attending at that time.
Considered a campus of the parent church, the whole thing fit in a trailer that we drove to the elementary school where we rented space.
And I remembered having the feeling of the early church as we carried all our gear in to set up in the cafeteria.

After a Sunday of arriving early and setting up for a small congregation and staying late to pack everything back in the trailer,
it really makes one appreciate having your own building where everything is pretty well ready to go.

 

[Episkopos]

I haven't looked at the current stats, but it seems there is a move away from the institutional church. On the other hand,
I can see the value of the cooperative effort to build something that facilitates a comfortable environment to meet in.

Comfortable for what part of us? For the inner man. Good! For the uncrucified aspirations of the carnal religious outer man? No.

 

[Lizbeth]

Self-examination is good. But how much self does it take to discern eternal things? All the claiming based on what is unseen that the self can be fully deceived about. For that there is the word of God...and pesky prophets who want for the name of God to be not blasphemed in the world because of the high-mindedness of the uncrucified.

Self examination is in the light of the Lord...He brings to light things we may not be able to see otherwise. "If we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship one with the other and His blood cleanses us from all sin." It takes willingness, honesty and love of the truth even when it hurts.

 

[St. SteVen]

It's one option for religious consumers! The unity thing is attractive.

Seems most religious consumers want someone else to do their spiritual thinking for them.
That sort of unity isn't a valuable outcome as much as a result of the surrender of their spiritual well-being to someone else.
These folks are easy to identify. When asked what THEY believe, they inform you of the POSITION of their church.
They have delegated their personal beliefs to an institution. Is it fair to call that unity?

The humility thing is good. In stark contrast to protestant...me and my churchy thing.

Is that fair? Protestants broke away from the Church (capital C) for good reasons.
Oh course they had to rebuild from scratch. Though most ended up as RCC clones anyway.

What I think isn't worth a hill of beans is to create religious franchises whereby hucksters peddle their form of twisted doctrine...molly coddling the flesh to puff up the outer man. Definitely something to avoid.

Let's not throw the Christ child out with the bath water. Most of these folks had a real call of God on their lives.

It doesn't really help to unify us by bashing those different from ourselves. Do you see anyone doing it right?

 

[St. SteVen]

Comfortable for what part of us? For the inner man. Good! For the uncrucified aspirations of the carnal religious outer man? No.

Might I interest you in a nice bed of nails? It's a little rusty, but should still work. - LOL

 

[St. SteVen]

Comfortable for what part of us? For the inner man. Good!

Wouldn't that be the result of ear-tickling? Comfort for the inner man. ???

 

[Episkopos]

Seems most religious consumers want someone else to do their spiritual thinking for them.
That sort of unity isn't a valuable outcome as much as a result of the surrender of their spiritual well-being to someone else.
These folks are easy to identify. When asked what THEY believe, they inform you of the POSITION of their church.
They have delegated their personal beliefs to an institution. Is it fair to call that unity?


Is that fair? Protestants broke away from the Church (capital C) for good reasons.
Oh course they had to rebuild from scratch. Though most ended up as RCC clones anyway.


Let's not throw the Christ child out with the bath water. Most of these folks had a real call of God on their lives.

It doesn't really help to unify us by bashing those different from ourselves. Do you see anyone doing it right?

I see humility is right. I see honesty as right. I see religious posturing as wrong. I see self-justification based on beliefs is wrong.

There is a war within each person. The outer man of self-preservation...and an enslaved inner man.

Jesus came to save the inner man by crucifying the enslaving outer man that tries to steal salvation for himself. Whoever does that (enslavement) will be judged. The irony is that they who identify with the part of them that wants to be saved...will be condemned.

But we have to surrender to God's will for that spiritual operation to take place. We have to become a living sacrifice to God...where we lose our lives.

 

[St. SteVen]

Self examination is in the light of the Lord...He brings to light things we may not be able to see otherwise. "If we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship one with the other and His blood cleanses us from all sin." It takes willingness, honesty and love of the truth even when it hurts.

Agree.
And you can do that no matter where you attend church. Or even if you don't.