Beware How You Posts

[marks]

I never claimed you teach God owes men salvation. Read more closely what I actually said: I said some teach God owes everyone an opportunity of salvation. So you're the one erecting a straw man because you've not really read what I stated. See that?

As far as owing everyone an opportunity for salvation?

He doesn't.

My apologies!

Please, allow me to restate . . .

Editted . . .

Whatever else you have to say about it, this misrepresents the position of many who do not hold your view.

It certainly does not represent my views, though I believe Jesus died for all mankind's sin. That everyone has the opportunity to know God.

My view is that God offers His grace freely to all men. If you want to misrepresent my view as if I thought that God owes the opportunity of salvation to all, and then argue against that view, that's fine, but that's pretty much the classic definition of the Straw Man argument, not an argument at all.

And so it does not engage another in a discussion of our respective understandings, instead, you end up engaging only with yourself, because, after all, I don't actually think out of some arrogance that God owes anyone the opportunity of salvation. So you supply that view, then knock it down, straw man, but you've not spoken towards my view.

Personally, I think it's important for us, if we are going to engage in these discussions, to actually be able to understand each other's points of view, even to the point of being able to correctly state the other person's view, whether we agree or not. Even to the point of being able to answer theological and soteriological questions correctly from that other person's frame of referrence. Even if we don't have the same POV.

Isn't it more honest to correctly state what someone else believes?

Much love!

Hopefully this will be more accurate. I apply this to myself also, we need to be able to correctly restate the other person's view.

 

[marks]

Perhaps God will have you face reality?

What fruit do you intend to produce with statements like this?

 

[Preacher4Truth]

My apologies!

Please, allow me to restate . . .



Hopefully this will be more accurate. I apply this to myself also, we need to be able to correctly restate the other person's view.

God owes no man anything. If we think he does, teach he does then that is not the Gospel and it is certainly not grace.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

What fruit do you intend to produce with statements like this?

What kind of fruit would come from you facing God's reality?

 

[Preacher4Truth]

My apologies!

Please, allow me to restate . . .



Hopefully this will be more accurate. I apply this to myself also, we need to be able to correctly restate the other person's view.

So, you see how God does not owe anyone an opportunity for salvation? Or, do you teach he does?

 

[DNB]

But again, I would say that is not the focus when the indwelling Holy Ghost would lead every believer to see to continue their reconciled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ.

How can you avoid people that make false claims about the Holy Ghost then if one looks for such people?

1 Corinthians 3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase....….21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's; 22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's; 23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

It is His workmanship in us and others that will be glorified.

2 Corinthians 3:1Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you? 2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: 3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

2 Corinthians 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Romans 12:1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. 3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.



Only you can know the Holy Spirit is in you.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

By His words towards professing believers is how we know He is in them.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith....26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

He is even in former believers still.

2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

So what's the evidence then, simply confessing Christ as Lord?
I would expect to see the 1st century phenomena that the Book of Acts testify to. I would expect to see men with undeniable wisdom, unequivocal patience and tolerance especially under persecution and torture. I would expect to see miracles, and an uncompromising love for others and to God. And this, I've never seen.
It seems that we both have different expectations for what the manifestation of the Holy Spirit is?

 

[Enow]

So what's the evidence then, simply confessing Christ as Lord?

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith....26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

From there, how He helps us to discern others in according to His words by how they walk and love others should inform us if they are abiding in Him as His disciples or not.

His disciples are led by the Holy Spirit to testify of the Son ( John 15:26-27 ) in seeking the glory of the Son ( John 16:14 ).

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

I would expect to see the 1st century phenomena that the Book of Acts testify to. I would expect to see men with undeniable wisdom, unequivocal patience and tolerance especially under persecution and torture. I would expect to see miracles, and an uncompromising love for others and to God. And this, I've never seen.
It seems that we both have different expectations for what the manifestation of the Holy Spirit is?

If we look for signs and wonders, via manifestations of the Holy Spirit, then our focus is not on the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, now is it?

Psalm 27:7 Hear, O Lord, when I cry with my voice: have mercy also upon me, and answer me. 8 When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, Lord, will I seek. 9 Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation.

 

[DNB]

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith....26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

From there, how He helps us to discern others in according to His words by how they walk and love others should inform us if they are abiding in Him as His disciples or not.

His disciples are led by the Holy Spirit to testify of the Son ( John 15:26-27 ) in seeking the glory of the Son ( John 16:14 ).

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.



If we look for signs and wonders, via manifestations of the Holy Spirit, then our focus is not on the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, now is it?

Psalm 27:7 Hear, O Lord, when I cry with my voice: have mercy also upon me, and answer me. 8 When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, Lord, will I seek. 9 Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation.

Well, all I can say is that I accepted the Gospel of Christ for no other reason, but that it made sense to me. No strange awareness came upon me, no insight that was out of character for me. But just logic and wisdom appealed to my intellect and conscience. It was a wisdom that corresponded to my view of the world, and my view of humans. It all made sense. I don't know what else to say about it.
All i can say is that the manifestation of the Holy Spirit in the Bible, are nothing compared to what Christians are evidencing today, or times past.

 

[SovereignGrace]

What kind of fruit would come from you facing God's reality?

I liken this place to Mars Hill. Paul goes to Athens, Greece, the place where all the intellects go to learn worldly wisdom. He then goes to Mars Hill and is grieved by all the various idols in place. It was so far into idolatry, that they have an altar to the 'unknown god', just in case there was a god out there they do not know exists, so as to not tick it off.


I read that they would trade idols like ppl today trade baseball cards. That's how far gone they were into their idolatry. I bet they were very tolerant of each other's idols and wished not to offend. Then Paul comes in and tells them about the one true God, and God the Son who died for sinners. He firmly witnessed to them and by God regenerating them, they believed his preaching.

When he first witnessed to them, he was gentle with them.

Later on, in the letter written to the church at Galatia, he wrote, I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.[Galatians 5:12] So, Paul was gentle at times, and also rather straightforward[firm] at times. That is the way we need to be, even on here.

 

[Enow]

Well, all I can say is that I accepted the Gospel of Christ for no other reason, but that it made sense to me. No strange awareness came upon me, no insight that was out of character for me. But just logic and wisdom appealed to my intellect and conscience. It was a wisdom that corresponded to my view of the world, and my view of humans. It all made sense. I don't know what else to say about it.

So is born again of the Spirit anyone that believed in Jesus Christ. The Father reveals the Son to us so we can believe in Him ( Matthew 11:25-27 ) that I why little children are free to come to Him ( Mark 10:13-15 ) as it is the Father that draws them unto the Son ( John 6:44 ) and it is the Father that gives them unto the Son to save them ( John 6:37-40 ) The fact that we believe is a work of God Himself ( John 3:18-21 )

[QUOTE[All i can say is that the manifestation of the Holy Spirit in the Bible, are nothing compared to what Christians are evidencing today, or times past.[/QUOTE]

If you are referring to such experiences like another baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues, Pensacola Outpouring, Toronto's Blessings, "holy laughter" movement, slain in the "spirit", and such manifestations today, I can say by the Word of God and the indwelling Holy Spirit in us that those are not manifestations of the Holy Spirit and therefore hardly of God at all. 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 1 Timothy 4:1-2 2 Corinthians 13:5 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15

 

[marks]

What kind of fruit would come from you facing God's reality?

What I'm saying is, just trying to slap someone down seems rather meaningless to me.

 

[Enow]

What I'm saying is, just trying to slap someone down seems rather meaningless to me.

Especially when there is no edification or reproof from the scripture to correct any supposed erring brother in love.

 

[marks]

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

And that reminds me . . . thank your for posting this . . . I needed that reminder!

 

[marks]

As far as owing everyone an opportunity for salvation?

He doesn't.

And neither do I teach that God owes His creation anything at all.

But in His love He gives freely, and desires that we freely receive.

 

[DNB]

So is born again of the Spirit anyone that believed in Jesus Christ. The Father reveals the Son to us so we can believe in Him ( Matthew 11:25-27 ) that I why little children are free to come to Him ( Mark 10:13-15 ) as it is the Father that draws them unto the Son ( John 6:44 ) and it is the Father that gives them unto the Son to save them ( John 6:37-40 ) The fact that we believe is a work of God Himself ( John 3:18-21 )

[QUOTE[All i can say is that the manifestation of the Holy Spirit in the Bible, are nothing compared to what Christians are evidencing today, or times past.

If you are referring to such experiences like another baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues, Pensacola Outpouring, Toronto's Blessings, "holy laughter" movement, slain in the "spirit", and such manifestations today, I can say by the Word of God and the indwelling Holy Spirit in us that those are not manifestations of the Holy Spirit and therefore hardly of God at all. 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 1 Timothy 4:1-2 2 Corinthians 13:5 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15[/QUOTE]
Well, ike I said, my experience was what it was. My neighbour preached the Gospel to me, and I marveled when I heard it, and felt that it was the truth. I cannot say who was pulling my strings, for like I said, i reacted no way out of character for myself, and could understand all that was said (it was within my current intellect to comprehend the principles. There was no mystical or supernatural experience, on any level.

No, I was referring to the NT manifestation of the Spirit. Nothing is comparable since then, or even close.

 

[Enow]

If you are referring to such experiences like another baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues, Pensacola Outpouring, Toronto's Blessings, "holy laughter" movement, slain in the "spirit", and such manifestations today, I can say by the Word of God and the indwelling Holy Spirit in us that those are not manifestations of the Holy Spirit and therefore hardly of God at all. 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 1 Timothy 4:1-2 2 Corinthians 13:5 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15

Well, ike I said, my experience was what it was. My neighbour preached the Gospel to me, and I marveled when I heard it, and felt that it was the truth. I cannot say who was pulling my strings, for like I said, i reacted no way out of character for myself, and could understand all that was said (it was within my current intellect to comprehend the principles. There was no mystical or supernatural experience, on any level.

No, I was referring to the NT manifestation of the Spirit. Nothing is comparable since then, or even close.

Okay. Thanks for the clarification, brother.