Bible alone?

[rjs330]

The church is the body of Christ. All believers everywhere are part of the church as a whole.

As we see in the NT there were also gatherings if believers who were also called the church.

Each church had leaders within them including elders. There was not a central church government that handled matters of faith in the church. Timothy was exhorted to have answers himself.

Paul himself stated he and the other apostles had the authority and teachings of Christ. But yet God gave teachers to the church to teach. No where does Paul or Peter teach of one single central authority of church government.

Each church governed themselves and had their own elders, men of faith

 

[theefaith]

How do we know what Christ taught? How do we know what the apostles taught?

Scripture! Jesus also used scripture to support his authority. He used scripture to rebuke Satan. And if course we know Christ was God and had full authority.

We know what to believe and what sound doctrine is because we have Christa words and the Apostles writings to teach us that.

How do we know if what the preacher it teacher is telling us is true and accurate and of sound doctrine? Scripture!

Jesus taught that in Matthew 15 when he rebuked the teachers for nullifying the scriptures with their traditions. He put scripture over the traditions.

II Tim 3:16-17 says all scripture is inspired. It doesn't say all teaching or traditions are inspired.

Other scriptures also refer to this.

Now that does not mean that we don't listen to others who teach us. Far from it. We have been given teachers to teach us. We have evangelists and teachers who help us and teach and train us. Who reprove and rebuke us. BUT they must adhere to what the scripture says. Because otherwise we don't know what sound doctrine is. Have we moved to false teachers? How do we know? Because we measure it against what the apostles and Christ taught. And how do we know what the apostles and Christ taught? The inspired scriptures.

Sola Scriptura does not mean we don't listen to anyone. Or that no one can teach us. No it means Scripture is the ultimate authority of the teachings of Christ and the sound doctrine provided to us by the apostles.

If a teacher or tradition runs counter to scripture then the teacher or tradition is not of sound doctrine. We may not add requirements or traditions to salvation or righteousness that scripture does not support or teach. We may not add additional doctrine to what the scripture teaches.

what scripture? Without Peter and the apostles How do you know what is and more over what is not scripture?

 

[theefaith]

1st and 2nd Maccabees anyone? Obedience to hierarchical authority or consensus or anarchy?

 

[theefaith]

You can’t read it yourself and make your own faith on your private judgement?
Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3 one faith revealed by Christ to the apostles acts 2:42

 

[Marymog]

Understanding the Bible isn't as hard as you suggest......

2,000 years of arguing about it makes it clear that it is hard to understand. Scripture even says some scripture is hard to understand. Scripture even says some people twist it. Soooooooo if it is sooooo easy to understand, how do men twist it?

Keeping it real....Mary

BTW...Who is Cady and Zoe? I love the name Zoe

 

[BreadOfLife]

How do we know what Christ taught? How do we know what the apostles taught?

Scripture! Jesus also used scripture to support his authority. He used scripture to rebuke Satan. And if course we know Christ was God and had full authority.

We know what to believe and what sound doctrine is because we have Christa words and the Apostles writings to teach us that.

How do we know if what the preacher it teacher is telling us is true and accurate and of sound doctrine? Scripture!

Jesus taught that in Matthew 15 when he rebuked the teachers for nullifying the scriptures with their traditions. He put scripture over the traditions.

II Tim 3:16-17 says all scripture is inspired. It doesn't say all teaching or traditions are inspired.

Other scriptures also refer to this.

Now that does not mean that we don't listen to others who teach us. Far from it. We have been given teachers to teach us. We have evangelists and teachers who help us and teach and train us. Who reprove and rebuke us. BUT they must adhere to what the scripture says. Because otherwise we don't know what sound doctrine is. Have we moved to false teachers? How do we know? Because we measure it against what the apostles and Christ taught. And how do we know what the apostles and Christ taught? The inspired scriptures.

Sola Scriptura does not mean we don't listen to anyone. Or that no one can teach us. No it means Scripture is the ultimate authority of the teachings of Christ and the sound doctrine provided to us by the apostles.

If a teacher or tradition runs counter to scripture then the teacher or tradition is not of sound doctrine. We may not add requirements or traditions to salvation or righteousness that scripture does not support or teach. We may not add additional doctrine to what the scripture teaches.

Yet you can't get any TWO of the tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant denominations to agree on their interpretations of Scripture.

Authority comes from Scripture and Oral Teaching - the Bible itself is CLEAR about this.
Jesus told the leaders of His Church:
Luke 10:16
Whoever LISTENS to YOU LISTENS to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

He didn't instruct ANYBODY to write a Book - but to Teach ALL nations by PREACHING to them (Matt. 28:19-20).
Paul told the Thessalonaians:
2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from us."

EITHER/OR - not "Solely" from what is written. He put ORAL Tradition ON PAR with Scripture.

Sola Scriptura is a self-defeating, man-made farce that was invented in the 16th century. It was never taught for 1500 years by the historic Christian Church PRIOR to the 16th century.

 

[CadyandZoe]

2,000 years of arguing about it makes it clear that it is hard to understand. Scripture even says some scripture is hard to understand. Scripture even says some people twist it. Soooooooo if it is sooooo easy to understand, how do men twist it?

Keeping it real....Mary

BTW...Who is Cady and Zoe? I love the name Zoe

There are different reasons why people make mistakes. Some make mistakes unintentionally, while others make mistakes on purpose. Some are skilled readers, others need training and practice. But in my experience, talking with folks on the internet, most people understand the Bible. those who twist it on purpose have an agenda.

If you have a moment, I would like to say one other thing. My teacher once told me there are two kinds of beliefs: religious beliefs and rational beliefs. Religious beliefs are ideas we affirm because our religion tells us what to believe. If a person wants to be a good Baptist, for instance, he or she will affirm Baptist dogma. If another person wants to be a good Mormon, that person will affirm and defend the tenets of Mormonism.

If a person holds Rational beliefs, that individual has listened to arguments, thought carefully about them, and finding them reasonable, affirms the veracity of the ideas presented. The difference between religious beliefs and rational beliefs comes down to this. A religious belief is an idea I borrowed from someone else; a rational belief is an idea that I own myself. One can not be talked out of a religious belief because one has not arrived at that belief through argumentation; those who hold rational beliefs are willing to be corrected, because such individuals are seeking the truth and willing to hear new information, and better arguments.

The disciples of Jesus held religious beliefs, being devout Jews who loved God and wanted to serve him. Jesus helped his disciples learn how to have rational beliefs and to question authoritarian belief structures. For instance, during the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus constantly repeated this refrain, "You have heard it said . . . but I tell you." In other words, our religious teachers say one thing, but when we examine the scriptures we find something else. The disciples must have the courage to own the truth rather than borrow the truth from others.

Zoe is my wife. She has been a Christian much longer than I. She has a good heart and street smarts, very practical and level headed. Her compass always points north, and her BS meter is much more finely tuned than mine. She seems to have x-ray vision because she can see right through me. (smile) I love her very much.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

There are different reasons why people make mistakes. Some make mistakes unintentionally, while others make mistakes on purpose. Some are skilled readers, others need training and practice. But in my experience, talking with folks on the internet, most people understand the Bible. those who twist it on purpose have an agenda.

If you have a moment, I would like to say one other thing. My teacher once told me there are two kinds of beliefs: religious beliefs and rational beliefs. Religious beliefs are ideas we affirm because our religion tells us what to believe. If a person wants to be a good Baptist, for instance, he or she will affirm Baptist dogma. If another person wants to be a good Mormon, that person will affirm and defend the tenets of Mormonism.

If a person holds Rational beliefs, that individual has listened to arguments, thought carefully about them, and finding them reasonable, affirms the veracity of the ideas presented. The difference between religious beliefs and rational beliefs comes down to this. A religious belief is an idea I borrowed from someone else; a rational belief is an idea that I own myself. One can not be talked out of a religious belief because one has not arrived at that belief through argumentation; those who hold rational beliefs are willing to be corrected, because such individuals are seeking the truth and willing to hear new information, and better arguments.

The disciples of Jesus held religious beliefs, being devout Jews who loved God and wanted to serve him. Jesus helped his disciples learn how to have rational beliefs and to question authoritarian belief structures. For instance, during the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus constantly repeated this refrain, "You have heard it said . . . but I tell you." In other words, our religious teachers say one thing, but when we examine the scriptures we find something else. The disciples must have the courage to own the truth rather than borrow the truth from others.

Zoe is my wife. She has been a Christian much longer than I. She has a good heart and street smarts, very practical and level headed. Her compass always points north, and her BS meter is much more finely tuned than mine. She seems to have x-ray vision because she can see right through me. (smile) I love her very much.

That is a lovely description of your wife

Also, "Mormons" are on this forum as well (*Jane points at herself*).

 

[rjs330]

what scripture? Without Peter and the apostles How do you know what is and more over what is not scripture?

what scripture? Without Peter and the apostles How do you know what is and more over what is not scripture?

You answered the question yourself. Jesus referred to the OT as scripture. Peter and Paul are Apostles and refer to their writings as scripture. There is nowhere in any of their letters that they refer to anything else as scripture other than the OT. They also do not refer to any other writings as scripture including the didache.

Like I said, I am NOT putting down you traditions. There is nothing wrong with them. If they help you be closer to God or they bless you then Go For It!

But they are not scripture and they are not REQUIRED for faith.

 

[rjs330]

Yet you can't get any TWO of the tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant denominations to agree on their interpretations of Scripture.

Authority comes from Scripture and Oral Teaching - the Bible itself is CLEAR about this.
Jesus told the leaders of His Church:
Luke 10:16
Whoever LISTENS to YOU LISTENS to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

He didn't instruct ANYBODY to write a Book - but to Teach ALL nations by PREACHING to them (Matt. 28:19-20).
Paul told the Thessalonaians:
2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from us."

EITHER/OR - not "Solely" from what is written. He put ORAL Tradition ON PAR with Scripture.

Sola Scriptura is a self-defeating, man-made farce that was invented in the 16th century. It was never taught for 1500 years by the historic Christian Church PRIOR to the 16th century.

Again, we no longer have the traditions that the apostles taught. We don't really know what they are. We do have what they wrote though. AND you actually use them to support your contentions, so they are valuable to you and you recognize their authority. We do NOT have the oral teachings of the apostles anymore. The only oral teachings we have are Christ's.

The Bible is only a book because that's what it is called. It contains the letters of the apostles which is mentioned in Thessalonaians. It's merely the collection of the writings conveniently put in one place. It's much easier to carry around than a bunch of individual letters. It's not the book itself that is inspired, but the letters and writings IN the book that are.

And the matter of protestant doctrines is meaningless. Because none of the disagreements of certain doctrines are critical to the faith and salvation of the individual believer. Because we believe that faith in Christ is what saves, not whether or not you speak in tongues. Or whether or not you are baptised by full emersion or sprinkling.

You see as YOU SAID authority was given to the apostles. We don't have them anymore. But we do have what they wrote. IF we still had them and had their oral teachings we could definately put them on par with their letters. But we don't.

 

[theefaith]

question authoritarian belief structures. For instance, during the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus constantly repeated this refrain, "You have heard it said . . . but I tell you." In other words, our religious teachers say one thing, but when we examine the scriptures we find something else. The disciples must have the courage to own the truth rather than borrow the truth from others.

Really the you have heard it said was the word of the Lord! Even the commandments of God!

Jesus never taught anyone to question authority but to obey all valid hierarchical authority Matt 23:1-3

 

[theefaith]

You answered the question yourself. Jesus referred to the OT as scripture. Peter and Paul are Apostles and refer to their writings as scripture. There is nowhere in any of their letters that they refer to anything else as scripture other than the OT. They also do not refer to any other writings as scripture including the didache.

Like I said, I am NOT putting down you traditions. There is nothing wrong with them. If they help you be closer to God or they bless you then Go For It!

But they are not scripture and they are not REQUIRED for faith.

1st & 2nd Maccabees scripture?

Even if you know what is the Bible you don’t have authority to read for yourself and make your own faith eph 4:5 Jude 1:3 only one faith revealed by God and taught, we must be taught!

Holy Spirit leads (Jn 16:13) Peter and the apostles and their successors into all truth without error, (Jn 8:32) then they are to teach and instruct the people (matt 28:19 Lk 1:4 Lk 10:16 acts 8:30-31) in obedience to thee faith (rom 1:5 acts 2:42)

 

[theefaith]

Again, we no longer have the traditions that the apostles taught. We don't really know what they are. We do have what they wrote though. AND you actually use them to support your contentions, so they are valuable to you and you recognize their authority. We do NOT have the oral teachings of the apostles anymore. The only oral teachings we have are Christ's.

The Bible is only a book because that's what it is called. It contains the letters of the apostles which is mentioned in Thessalonaians. It's merely the collection of the writings conveniently put in one place. It's much easier to carry around than a bunch of individual letters. It's not the book itself that is inspired, but the letters and writings IN the book that are.

And the matter of protestant doctrines is meaningless. Because none of the disagreements of certain doctrines are critical to the faith and salvation of the individual believer. Because we believe that faith in Christ is what saves, not whether or not you speak in tongues. Or whether or not you are baptised by full emersion or sprinkling.

You see as YOU SAID authority was given to the apostles. We don't have them anymore. But we do have what they wrote. IF we still had them and had their oral teachings we could definately put them on par with their letters. But we don't.

is justification and salvation the same?

 

[CadyandZoe]

question authoritarian belief structures. For instance, during the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus constantly repeated this refrain, "You have heard it said . . . but I tell you." In other words, our religious teachers say one thing, but when we examine the scriptures we find something else. The disciples must have the courage to own the truth rather than borrow the truth from others.

Really the you have heard it said was the word of the Lord! Even the commandments of God!

Jesus never taught anyone to question authority but to obey all valid hierarchical authority Matt 23:1-3

What they "heard" was teaching from the scribes and Pharisees.

 

[theefaith]

No Jesus said Matt 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

God commandments

 

[rjs330]

question authoritarian belief structures. For instance, during the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus constantly repeated this refrain, "You have heard it said . . . but I tell you." In other words, our religious teachers say one thing, but when we examine the scriptures we find something else. The disciples must have the courage to own the truth rather than borrow the truth from others.

Really the you have heard it said was the word of the Lord! Even the commandments of God!

Jesus never taught anyone to question authority but to obey all valid hierarchical authority Matt 23:1-3

Jesus and the apostles also warned us against false teachers. And he was speaking to the Jews at the time. So unless you are obeying the Pharisees, who are the Jewish leaders you are not following his teaching in Matthew.

Are you following the Jewish teaching? Remember Paul taught us we are no longer bound by the Jewish law.

And we agree on the apostles! That's why we believe in the scriptures! Because they are the teaching of the apostles. They are not the traditions of men. Scripture is the ultimate authority because they are the teachings of the apostles.

 

[theefaith]

Jesus and the apostles also warned us against false teachers. And he was speaking to the Jews at the time. So unless you are obeying the Pharisees, who are the Jewish leaders you are not following his teaching in Matthew.

Are you following the Jewish teaching? Remember Paul taught us we are no longer bound by the Jewish law.

And we agree on the apostles! That's why we believe in the scriptures! Because they are the teaching of the apostles. They are not the traditions of men. Scripture is the ultimate authority because they are the teachings of the apostles.

the kingdom authority (keys) power (bind) of Israel was taken from the successors of Moses matt 21:43 and given to Peter the apostles and their successors Matt 16:18 matt 18:18

 

[rjs330]

is justification and salvation the same?

No.
The greek word for saved is so and the justified is dikaioo. Two different words with two different meanings.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Again, we no longer have the traditions that the apostles taught. We don't really know what they are. We do have what they wrote though. AND you actually use them to support your contentions, so they are valuable to you and you recognize their authority. We do NOT have the oral teachings of the apostles anymore. The only oral teachings we have are Christ's.

The Bible is only a book because that's what it is called. It contains the letters of the apostles which is mentioned in Thessalonaians. It's merely the collection of the writings conveniently put in one place. It's much easier to carry around than a bunch of individual letters. It's not the book itself that is inspired, but the letters and writings IN the book that are.

And the matter of protestant doctrines is meaningless. Because none of the disagreements of certain doctrines are critical to the faith and salvation of the individual believer. Because we believe that faith in Christ is what saves, not whether or not you speak in tongues. Or whether or not you are baptised by full emersion or sprinkling.

You see as YOU SAID authority was given to the apostles. We don't have them anymore. But we do have what they wrote. IF we still had them and had their oral teachings we could definately put them on par with their letters. But we don't.

WRONG.

As I showed earlier - Paul puts Oral Teaching ON PAR with the written (Scripture):
2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from us."

And there is NO expiration date on 2 Thess. 2:15 . . .

Furthermore - the Canon of Scripture itself is a Church Tradition that is NOT in Scripture. In other words - there is NO list of Books in the Bible that says "These are the Books you should adhere to."
This decision was made by the Holy Spirit and spoken through his CHURCH.

- The Synod of Rome (382) is where the canon was first formally identified.
- 11 years later, it was confirmed at the Synod of Hippo (393).
- At the Council (or Synod) of Carthage (397), it was yet again confirmed. The bishops wrote at the end of their document, "But let Church beyond sea (Rome) be consulted about confirming this canon". There were 44 bishops, including St. Augustine who signed the document.
- 7 years later, in 405, in a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse, he reiterated the canon.
- 14 years after that, at the 2nd Council (Synod) of Carthage (419) the canon was again formally confirmed.

The Canon of Scripture was officially closed at the Council of Trent in the 16th century because of the perversions happening within Protestantism and the random editing and deleting of books from the Canon.

So - WHO told YOU that the Bible was the Word of God?
Answer: His CHURCH.

NEXT: We'll discuss WHO told you it is our "Sole Authority" because that's NOT in the Bible, either . . .

 

[Brakelite]

Jesus promised... God promised the holy Spirit to anyone searching for truth, they would find it. Your whole argument directly contracticts and denies the very words and promises of the Son of God. You make Him a liar.

KJV Luke 11:9-13
9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Soooo you troll your way into our conversation but you really don't answer my questions....AGAIN....Fascinating...

We are discussing whether scripture alone is sufficient for salvation. The first quote above was my answer. Did you not see it?

Two points.
1. Prophecy informed us (and he shall speak great words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and think to change times and laws...Daniel 7:25) that there would be a power that would attempt to change God's laws, and times. This is precisely what Catholicism boasts to have done, and in this very thread, claims power and authority to do; change scripture, define what is and what is not scripture, have sole authority to interpret scripture, even to withhold scripture if deemed appropriate to do so. She has changed the day for corporate worship from the seventh day too the first, changed the Ten Commandments to suit, thus holding tradition as having greater authority than scripture. And because she decides what traditions are important, therefore it is the church's priests and councils etc who have exalted themselves as a higher authority than scripture itself. That being the case, of course she can change it at will.

2. Another prophecy speaks of the same power that would "magnify himself even to the Prince of the host, and by him the daily would be taken away, and the place of His sanctuary be cast down". Daniel 8:11
I grew up as Catholic, and was even an altar boy. I remember when entering the church the first thing one saw was a bowl of water. Inside were candles. Incense. Then there was a barricade which separated the common folk from the "holy place", where the alatar was. At the top of the altar was a box....the "tabernacle", in which was a veil and behind that the "host", purported to be God Himself which was, when eaten, a repeat of Calvary. The sacrifice of the mass. The laver. Candles. Incense. Confessionals. (It was in 1984 that the then pope demanded that Catholics ought never to approach God directly, but to always confess their sins to priests). You have the separation between the common people and the holy. You have the mediator/priest instead of Christ, the one and only Mediator between man and God. 1 Tim.2:5 And of course the 'most holy place", called the tabernacle, wherein is God. (One can also find bells, angels, special garments all of which are counterfeits of the true sanctuary in heaven. (Hebrews 8:1,2)
This is a counterfeit of the heavenly sanctuary. In Rome there is a throne even with two angels on each side, and surrounded by four men, the pope being upon the throne. Another counterfeit of the throne room of God. This is how the place of His sanctuary has been cast down. Daniel 8:11.
We have a Mediator in heaven, Jesus Christ our Saviour and Lord. We need no other to tell us what scripture is, what it means, and that we can ignore it if the all powerful authority of the church says so.

As to the different pseudo "Protestant" denominations, some of which have vastly different interpretations of scripture in some areas. One must remember the rock from which they were hewn. Who is their mother? Whose daughters are they? And what kind of daughters are they? What should we expect from members of the same family?