Bible Contradictions

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Lunar

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(thesuperjag;25750)
Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.Jag
the superjag:Could you please explain how you feel that makes Paul's view on being saved by faith alone compatible with James' view that one must be saved by both works and faith?
 

Christina

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Not at all it is in the understanding We are saved by grace alone everyone has this grace offered sinner,saint, athiest,christian the grace of God is always avaiable to anyone If one choose to accept this grace he must aquire faith in Christ dying for his sins, once one accepts Christ he is drawn to works rather that be spreading the good news or charity or whatever. One can not truly have faith without works because anyone who has ever felt the spirit of christ wants to shout about to everyone wants to be kinder gentler walk in the ways of christ ect. faith without works is dead (not of the spirit of the living God) another words if you just go to church to impress your neighbors and do good just for your own ego do you have faith?these are all connected in different ways and each aspostle is trying to explain from a different stand point these are not contrdictions once you understand them all
 

Lunar

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kriss:I actually don't think that those were the works that Paul and James were referring to. Paul seems to quite explicitly be referring to the Jewish law (this is best exemplified in his epistle to the Galatians), and James' letter is a reaction to that. During the fourth century James' views were seen as so radical, and in such stark contrast to Paul (ironically enough, his epistle to the Romans was supposed to best exemplify this difference) that Gaius Marius Victorinus denounced James' epistle as heretical and tried to exclude it from the developing biblical canon.
 

Christina

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I do agree that Paul liked to hang on to his Jewishness and this may have caused some disention between the two but Christ came to fulfill the law. I still do not see contradiction maybe you could explain more where you see this
 

Lunar

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(kriss;25759)
I do agree that Paul liked to hang on to his Jewishness and this may have caused some disention between the two but Christ came to fulfill the law. I still do not see contradiction maybe you could explain more where you see this
Er....well, no, I was referring to Paul specifically rejecting the relevance of the Jewish law. The Jewish law, in this sense, is the "works" that are being referred to. That's where the faith/works dichotomy originates from, I thought. We can see that Paul clearly made this the focus of a lot of his letters, like when he denounces circumcision.
 

Christina

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Yes but Paul always teaches on three levels Works can be good or bad and Works do dont really come into play until after the Millieum and the time of Grace is past.At the white throne judgement I strill dont see where you are trying to make this a contradiction??
 

Lunar

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The contradiction is this: Paul thinks works (the Jewish law) are not necessary for salvation. James thinks they are necessary, and that you cannot be justified in salvation through faith alone. These are two different views about how to achieve salvation, therefore, there is a contradiction.
 

Christina

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But they are both right my point from the beginning because two men disagree/say different things it isnt a contradiction when they are both right.the message to us is the same niether Works nor faith alone will save you
 

Logical_One

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thank you for clearing that up and not simply trying to decide for several days without coming to any conclusion.Really strengthened your position as people who know what they're talking about.
 

Christina

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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?Then he is not omnipotent.Is he able but not willing?Then he is malevolent.Is he both able and willing?Then whence cometh evil?Is he neither able nor willing?Then why call him God."-Epicurus couldnt help but notice your signatureIt called free will would you rather he just made us robots to do as we are told?obviously you have no children or you would have a clue if you had three chilren you loved and one was bad would you kill him?or would you hope your love and gudience would set him straight.Just because you could kill him doesnt mean you will or should
 

Logical_One

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theres a difference between killing someone and designing man without the capacity for evil, or maybe more empathy, or if you actually believe that whole adam & eve thing, less curiosity or something like that.The point is that there are lots of ways that god couldve prevented evil but didnt. Assuming of course that he exists and is all powerful.and I was under the impression that god has no problem wiping out civilizations that do bad things, it led to him killing over 2,000,000 people in the bible
 

Christina

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He did create man perfect stop putting God in your preconcieved notions He created us his children above all he wanted our love if you force or create someone to love you is it love? If you do not give them free will to learn to love you of their own accord you will never have true love. But with free will came freedom of choice not to love him and do evil would you have him just kill off anyone who doesnt love him would that make others do so? the ones he did kill was because they would have made the world so evil no one would have stood a chance to come to love him on their own. you are passing judgements on what you have no comprehension about.
 

Logical_One

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I'm not saying create us without love, I'm saying create us less curious. then no forbidden fruit eating, and no evil coming into our lives. we still have free will, just no innate need to disobey.create us more empathetic, so that we feel worse about doing evil things, and thus do far fewer evil things.there are plenty of ways that he couldve created us with free will, but generally less evil.but he didn'tI wonder why
 

Christina

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God never created us evil Satan introduced us to sin and evil we just took to it well God can not create or do evil Satan was not creatred evil he was the the most intellegent beatiful angel ever created but he having free will became full of pride he decided he should be God so went about trying to gain followers among gods other children is its Gods fault we went along? He could of just wiped us all out and started over but his love for us was to great as yours would be for your child so he divised a plan to save all who wanted to be saved even you. That is what saved by Grace means by Gods grace we can all everyone be saved
 

Christina

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I think one of the harest things for doubters and believers to comprehend is God simply set out a group of ten Laws (ten comandments for man to follow and if everyone follwed them there would be none of this evil in the World but man thinks he can do it betterAll the killing in the name of God is blasphemous to him he hates it. God never created a religion all religious denomination were created by men, for men Gods Word is not catholic or prodestant, or Islamic or Buddists these are all creations of Men who have decided to worship God in ways they have decided is proper so you have religious war after religious War God set out a way for all to live their lives and to come to him of their own free will and forgive them for all their shortcomings. But its men who would rather fight about who's ideas are right or wrong who has the best religion denomination God says there is no denominations there is only me accept the gift of my son who died for all your sins and thats it then just live by my laws (commandments) to bad we do not listen
 

Lunar

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(kriss;25890)
But they are both right my point from the beginning because two men disagree/say different things it isnt a contradiction when they are both right.the message to us is the same niether Works nor faith alone will save you
kriss:I really don't think it's quite that simple. Ephesians 2:8-9 makes it very clear that it is not a matter of both faith and works, it is a matter of faith alone.
 

Pariah

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Hi All,For those seeking answers, does this help? Consider yourself as a police officer at the scene of a car accident in the middle of an intersection in a city. As you interview the witnesses, you will get more details than from others. Some will see it from a different view than others. Some may remember key points and some others may remember details. It doesn't mean that those that address the key points did not notice the details... it's just that he or she is telling it as they believe they should. Every witness will be delivering the report from recollection and towards the scene of the car accident. Then the evidence is collected from the scene due to skid marks... the damage... the speed variable... as well as the collection of eyewitnesses' reports to find out exactly what had happened.When you are recollecting a series of events, one could address key points and seem contradictory when someone else includes more details about the same event. When in flow of two accounts... one would be assuming that the time and place is contradictory when in fact.. they are just two witnesses telling their story from their view. Some may start their story at a different point as well as another at a later point about the same story in setting the backdrop of the same event.John 12: 1Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead. Mark 14: 1After two days was the feast of the passover, and of unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death. 2But they said, Not on the feast day, lest there be an uproar of the people. 3And being in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, John 12: 2There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him. Mark 14: ....as he sat at meat, there came a woman having an alabaster box of ointment of spikenard very precious; John 12: 3Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, Mark 14: 3....and she brake the box, and poured it on his head. John 12:3 ....and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment. Mark 14: 4And there were some that had indignation within themselves, and said, Why was this waste of the ointment made? 5For it might have been sold for more than three hundred pence, and have been given to the poor. And they murmured against her. John 12: 4Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him, 5Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? 6This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. 7Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this. Mark 14:6And Jesus said, Let her alone; why trouble ye her? she hath wrought a good work on me. 7For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always. John 12: 8For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always. Mark 14: 8She hath done what she could: she is come aforehand to anoint my body to the burying. 9Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world, this also that she hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her. John 12: 9Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead. 10But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death; 11Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus. 12On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, 13Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord. 14And Jesus, when he had found a young ***, sat thereon; as it is written, 15Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ***'s colt. 16These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him. 17The people therefore that was with him when he called Lazarus out of his grave, and raised him from the dead, bare record. 18For this cause the people also met him, for that they heard that he had done this miracle. 19The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him. 20And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast: 21The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus. 22Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus. 23And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. 24Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. Note the passage of time. It was later that this verse was referring to...Mark 14: 10And Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve, went unto the chief priests, to betray him unto them. 11And when they heard it, they were glad, and promised to give him money. And he sought how he might conveniently betray him. So the witness in Mark skipped ahead to the time when Judas betrayed Jesus...while John included more details as there was another day before the betrayal event... which still leads up to Judas betraying Jesus. Now consider... if two witnesses were copying each other, they would make sure they had all their "stories straight". Thus not only are the two witnesses of this account is genuine, but it goes to the credibility of the copying down through history in keeping the accounts from alterations to "fix" contradictions perceived when in fact... it is the readers (that's us) that is not understanding what is written thus again... it always goes back to those that seek the truth.. ask the Lord for wisdom in understanding the scriptures. Sometimes it can be staring right at us in the face, but we are just not perceiving it.
 

Logical_One

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Pariah

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Now for those that seek the truth....James wasn't about salvation in regards to faith with works. It was about believers abusing the issuing of verbal faith in getting out of helping the poor. We see the precedent of the abuse towards the poor when they were favoring the rich over the poor. Then it leads to the verbal abuse of issuing faith in getting out of helping the poor by their saying... "Be warmed and be filled" as if by saying their faith to the poor, God will do this for them. This is so because we note two term in reference to that issued faith. What does it profit him? Who? The poor. Can faith save him? Who? The poor. It is not about the saving faith of the believers as it is about the abuse of the faithsayers. To the eyes of the poor, the church just got a collection at the end of their service and yet the believers of that church were sending them away naked and starving by issuing faith that God will take care of them to be warmed and to be filled, thus from the eyes of the poor, the faith of the faithsayers was dead because thay had the means to meet their needs as well as their own for today, but yet were unwilling to act on that faith in God in providing for their needs for tomorrow.James had nothing to do with the faith of salvation. It was about the abuse of verbal faith from the faithsayers towards the poor in getting out of helping the poor when they had the means to do so.May the Lord cause the increase cause I have shared this so many times and nobody has acknowledged it yet (none to my recollection) , but that is what is written. And that is why it is not contradictory to the message of salvation.