Bible Study Methods

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Jay Ross

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That said, you have me interested because if we consider "son" to refer to Joseph's "calling" rather than his birth (which, linguistically, can be done) we come up with Joseph being 54 years old when Jacob was 130 years old.

John perhaps it would be good for you to develop your ideas around the quoted sentence from your post about the word "son."
 

John Caldwell

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John perhaps it would be good for you to develop your ideas around the quoted sentence from your post about the word "son."
David Mitchell has observed that some basic and important Hebrew terms are transliterated rather than translated: ben (son, descendant) being one of them. My observation here is dependent on some of his comments regarding the use of the word.

The idea is that the word "son" (בֵּן‎, ben) in Hebrew, just like "father", does not necessarily mean the word son as we typically use it in English. The word is related to בָּנָה‎ (bānâ) as the "builder" of the family name. Going back to Genesis 37:2 Joseph brought back a bad report about his brothers to Jacob and was the "son of his old age". Keep in mind the age difference between Jacob and his brothers was not very great (excluding Benjamin, who was the son born to Jacob in his old age).

Jacob was 17 years of age when he became the "firstborn" or "son" (or "builder" of the family name) - Israel's "son " in his old age.

If Joseph was 30 years old when he stood before Pharaoh from the point that he became the "son" of Israel's old age (the "firstborn" position) then his age (from birth) was 47. If there were seven years of plenty then at the beginning of the drought he would have been 54. (I recognize I misstated before because we have two more years of drought before Jacob would appear before Pharaoh). 54 plus two years of drought would make Joseph 56 years old (47 years since becoming Israel's "son" of his old age) when Jacob appeared before Pharaoh.

The calculation is dependent on Joseph becoming the firstborn when Ruben disgraces his father and Jacob bestowed the primogeniture on Joseph as being the "age" of which Joseph spoke.

What is interesting to me is that you come up with the same age (this method give us 56 years old) via a detailed timeline. It also solves a few issues (like Joseph really not born when Jacob was in his "old age" as all but Benjamin were born within Jacob's first 7 years of marriage).
 
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John Caldwell

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David Mitchell has observed that some basic and important Hebrew terms are transliterated rather than translated: ben (son, descendant) being one of them. My observation here is dependent on some of his comments regarding the use of the word.

The idea is that the word "son" (בֵּן‎, ben) in Hebrew, just like "father", does not necessarily mean the word son as we typically use it in English. The word is related to בָּנָה‎ (bānâ) as the "builder" of the family name. Going back to Genesis 37:2 Joseph brought back a bad report about his brothers to Jacob and was the "son of his old age". Keep in mind the age difference between Jacob and his brothers was not very great (excluding Benjamin, who was the son born to Jacob in his old age).

Jacob was 17 years of age when he became the "firstborn" or "son" (or "builder" of the family name) - Israel's "son " in his old age.

If Joseph was 30 years old when he stood before Pharaoh from the point that he became the "son" of Israel's old age (the "firstborn" position) then his age (from birth) was 47. If there were seven years of plenty then at the beginning of the drought he would have been 54. (I recognize I misstated before because we have two more years of drought before Jacob would appear before Pharaoh). 54 plus two years of drought would make Joseph 56 years old (47 years since becoming Israel's "son" of his old age) when Jacob appeared before Pharaoh.

The calculation is dependent on Joseph becoming the firstborn when Ruben disgraces his father and Jacob bestowed the primogeniture on Joseph as being the "age" of which Joseph spoke.

What is interesting to me is that you come up with the same age (this method give us 56 years old) via a detailed timeline. It also solves a few issues (like Joseph really not born when Jacob was in his "old age" as all but Benjamin were born within Jacob's first 7 years of marriage).
On a different topic (just thinking about what I wrote), @Jay Ross , the Hebrew use of "son" here also has implications regarding the title "Son of man". Jesus is the "firstborn" and is the "Builder" of the "family name" in terms of the human family.
 

Jay Ross

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What is interesting to me is that you come up with the same age (this method give us 56 years old) via a detailed timeline. It also solves a few issues (like Joseph really not born when Jacob was in his "old age" as all but Benjamin were born within Jacob's first 7 years of marriage).

John, again you are relying on a mythical understanding that Jacob only spent 20 years in Haran, but the reality, if you do a timeline from scripture, is that Jacob statement of how many years he spent with Laban, clearly indicates that he spent 40 years living in Haran working for Laban.

If you look at the timeline of the births of Jacob sons, then, Rueben, his first born son, to his first wife, Leah, was probably born in the 8th year of his time in Haran, then Leah gave birth to another three sons, in quick succession possibly over a period of 4 to 5 years before she stopped bearing children for a period of time. Then Rachel gave Jacob her handmaiden, Bihah, to Jacob, as a wife, and within 1 year, probably, she had given birth to her first born son, Dan, and then within one or two years later she bears another son with Jacob, named, Naphtali, before she stops bearing children.

Then Lear gives he handmaiden, Zilpah, who probably within one year also bears Jacob a son, Gad, and then within one to two years also bears Jacob a second son, Asher.

Some time after this, Leah buys time in Jacob's bed using Rueben's mandrakes, and also bears Jacob another son, Issachar, and within one or two years then bears Zebulun. Then Leah also bears Jacob a daughter, Dinah, possibly one to two years later.

All of the above probably occurred within the first 22 years of Jacob living in Haran. He was possibly around 64 years old at this time.

It was not for another 10-11 years before Rachel bore Jacob a son, after God had opened her womb, and she gave birth to a son, Joseph, when Jacob was probably around 74-75 years old.

Six years later, Jacob flees from Laban while Rachel was carrying her second child, who was born near Bethlehem. It should be remembered that Rachel told her father that she could not get up for him from the saddle bags where she had hidden the household idols/gods, was in the way of women, i.e. being pregnant.

The above goes a long way in confirming that Jacob spent 40 years in Haran and not 20 years as your scenario above suggest. The commentator on the story of Jacob also got this wrong as well as the age of Joseph when his brothers first turned up in Egypt to get grain from him.

We now have the incident in Shechem of the Prince of the city bedding Dinah, and her brothers response of kill the men in Shechem because of this incident. Dinah would have been around the age of 18 to 19 years old when she "put" herself into the prince's bed. She may not have been completely innocent in this "crime of passion."

Jacob then moves quickly on from Shechem and near Bethlehem Rachel gives birth to her second son, Benjamin, before she dies during the birth of her second son. Rachel could have been around the age of 62 years old when she died. Jacob was possibly around the age of 83 year old when Benjamin was born.

In the above I have set out the timeline of Jacob covering the time period of the begetting of all of his sons.

Jacob's first 11 sons were born, from my research in establishing a time line for the book of Genesis, over a period of around 26 years and not as you have suggested over a period of only 6 - 7 years. The numbers do not work.

Joseph was some 15-26 years younger than his older brothers.

John you have again relied on what you have read rather than confirming what the other commentator have claimed.

We all need to meditate on the scriptures and put God's words to us into His context and not fit them into our poor "logical" reasoning.

Shalom
 

John Caldwell

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John, again you are relying on a mythical understanding that Jacob only spent 20 years in Haran, but the reality, if you do a timeline from scripture, is that Jacob statement of how many years he spent with Laban, clearly indicates that he spent 40 years living in Haran working for Laban.

If you look at the timeline of the births of Jacob sons, then, Rueben, his first born son, to his first wife, Leah, was probably born in the 8th year of his time in Haran, then Leah gave birth to another three sons, in quick succession possibly over a period of 4 to 5 years before she stopped bearing children for a period of time. Then Rachel gave Jacob her handmaiden, Bihah, to Jacob, as a wife, and within 1 year, probably, she had given birth to her first born son, Dan, and then within one or two years later she bears another son with Jacob, named, Naphtali, before she stops bearing children.

Then Lear gives he handmaiden, Zilpah, who probably within one year also bears Jacob a son, Gad, and then within one to two years also bears Jacob a second son, Asher.

Some time after this, Leah buys time in Jacob's bed using Rueben's mandrakes, and also bears Jacob another son, Issachar, and within one or two years then bears Zebulun. Then Leah also bears Jacob a daughter, Dinah, possibly one to two years later.

All of the above probably occurred within the first 22 years of Jacob living in Haran. He was possibly around 64 years old at this time.

It was not for another 10-11 years before Rachel bore Jacob a son, after God had opened her womb, and she gave birth to a son, Joseph, when Jacob was probably around 74-75 years old.

Six years later, Jacob flees from Laban while Rachel was carrying her second child, who was born near Bethlehem. It should be remembered that Rachel told her father that she could not get up for him from the saddle bags where she had hidden the household idols/gods, was in the way of women, i.e. being pregnant.

The above goes a long way in confirming that Jacob spent 40 years in Haran and not 20 years as your scenario above suggest. The commentator on the story of Jacob also got this wrong as well as the age of Joseph when his brothers first turned up in Egypt to get grain from him.

We now have the incident in Shechem of the Prince of the city bedding Dinah, and her brothers response of kill the men in Shechem because of this incident. Dinah would have been around the age of 18 to 19 years old when she "put" herself into the prince's bed. She may not have been completely innocent in this "crime of passion."

Jacob then moves quickly on from Shechem and near Bethlehem Rachel gives birth to her second son, Benjamin, before she dies during the birth of her second son. Rachel could have been around the age of 62 years old when she died. Jacob was possibly around the age of 83 year old when Benjamin was born.

In the above I have set out the timeline of Jacob covering the time period of the begetting of all of his sons.

Jacob's first 11 sons were born, from my research in establishing a time line for the book of Genesis, over a period of around 26 years and not as you have suggested over a period of only 6 - 7 years. The numbers do not work.

Joseph was some 15-26 years younger than his older brothers.

John you have again relied on what you have read rather than confirming what the other commentator have claimed.

We all need to meditate on the scriptures and put God's words to us into His context and not fit them into our poor "logical" reasoning.

Shalom
I guess the difference is I am not relying on either of the reasoning I have offered.

It is not because I have read that bar means "builder" that I believe it. The reason I believe it us that the language is used similarly in the Greek and I have studied Greek at the graduate level. So I accept that viewing Joseph as being 56 years old as a possibility based on the language. That does not mean I hold that position.

I do believe that Joseph stood before Pharoah when he was 30 (I lean towards as being 30 years old). And I believe that there were 7 years of abundance followed by 2 years prior to Jacob arriving before Pharoah. So I lean towards a younger age.

But I really do not hold a position either way.

For me it is about acknowledging possible interpretations and choosing from the best of those interpretations based on the context of the passage and Scripture as a whole.

But I do not really have an opinion on this topic. I am getting old and cannot waste too many brain cells on one topic for fear of running out before I die.
 

Jay Ross

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But I do not really have an opinion on this topic. I am getting old and cannot waste too many brain cells on one topic for fear of running out before I die.

John you are not the only one who is getting old, I am no spring chicken myself, yet I enjoy using my brain cells on understanding God's plans for mankind and how those plans have unfolded so far. I am sorry that you are feeling that you need to preserve your brain cells from instigating a change in your understanding of God.

I contemplate such matters as to whether or not God promised Abraham and his descendants the "whole earth" or just the "promised land" as many claim is the case. I contemplate whether the Book of Revelation is linear in its revelation of the End Time prophecies and judgement.

What I know is that God is looking for a relationship with each and every person, but so many people have made the relationship process so complex that it is frightening many away from God because of the hypocrisy on display by those proponents. Is the bible truly literal? Or should we understand the bible as a series of pictures that portrays God's plans for all of mankind.

We have some on this forum who read the English translations as if they are infallible and should be understood within a literal context. Or they spiritualise the Scripture such that Christ is the centre of everything and every story or parable.

An example of this can be found in the "usual" understanding of Matt 25:14-30 and Luke 19:11-27 where the main character has now been made to be Jesus who has gone away to heaven instead of the original character being presented as the "man" of deceptions, i.e. Satan.

Although mankind has complicated God's Salvation process to the point where it is barely recognisable, God is still able to connect with people despite those with a theological bent getting in the way.

Jesus made it very simple for people to receive salvation. He simple told us to believe in Him, Whom His Father, God, had sent to redeem those who believed in Him.

Sadly the salvation process has been complicated by people like us trying to explain the process to others when all that is needed is faith in Jesus through our believing in Him and his redemptive work.

Abraham was counted as righteous because He believed God and His words over his life and his descendants.

We need to step into the same faith that Abraham had, even though the redemptive process has been changed from Abraham's time, within the present world context.

When the bible stories require us to hold to an illogical understanding of how they transpired it becomes very difficult for us to accept the rest of the Biblical Story and the means of salvation that it represents for us today and into the future. That is why God is going to re-establish the foundation of our relationship with Him in the Near Future when He establishes His Everlasting Kingdom on the earth during the time of those kings that are the feet of the statue that holds dominion over the land of Babylon at this present time, at the end of this present age.

Shalom
 

John Caldwell

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John you are not the only one who is getting old, I am no spring chicken myself, yet I enjoy using my brain cells on understanding God's plans for mankind and how those plans have unfolded so far. I am sorry that you are feeling that you need to preserve your brain cells from instigating a change in your understanding of God.

I contemplate such matters as to whether or not God promised Abraham and his descendants the "whole earth" or just the "promised land" as many claim is the case. I contemplate whether the Book of Revelation is linear in its revelation of the End Time prophecies and judgement.

What I know is that God is looking for a relationship with each and every person, but so many people have made the relationship process so complex that it is frightening many away from God because of the hypocrisy on display by those proponents. Is the bible truly literal? Or should we understand the bible as a series of pictures that portrays God's plans for all of mankind.

We have some on this forum who read the English translations as if they are infallible and should be understood within a literal context. Or they spiritualise the Scripture such that Christ is the centre of everything and every story or parable.

An example of this can be found in the "usual" understanding of Matt 25:14-30 and Luke 19:11-27 where the main character has now been made to be Jesus who has gone away to heaven instead of the original character being presented as the "man" of deceptions, i.e. Satan.

Although mankind has complicated God's Salvation process to the point where it is barely recognisable, God is still able to connect with people despite those with a theological bent getting in the way.

Jesus made it very simple for people to receive salvation. He simple told us to believe in Him, Whom His Father, God, had sent to redeem those who believed in Him.

Sadly the salvation process has been complicated by people like us trying to explain the process to others when all that is needed is faith in Jesus through our believing in Him and his redemptive work.

Abraham was counted as righteous because He believed God and His words over his life and his descendants.

We need to step into the same faith that Abraham had, even though the redemptive process has been changed from Abraham's time, within the present world context.

When the bible stories require us to hold to an illogical understanding of how they transpired it becomes very difficult for us to accept the rest of the Biblical Story and the means of salvation that it represents for us today and into the future. That is why God is going to re-establish the foundation of our relationship with Him in the Near Future when He establishes His Everlasting Kingdom on the earth during the time of those kings that are the feet of the statue that holds dominion over the land of Babylon at this present time, at the end of this present age.

Shalom
Actually, I am reserving my brain cells to learn and grow in my understanding of God. That is important to me. Arguing whether my calculation of Joseph's age when his brothers came to Egypt is not a top priority for me (I am glad it is important to others and will consider their ideas as well).

BTW, do you believe Joseph was 30 years old when he stood before Pharoah?
 
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Jay Ross

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Actually, I am reserving my brain cells to learn and grow in my understanding of God. That is important to me. Arguing whether my calculation of Joseph's age when his brothers came to Egypt is not a top priority for me (I am glad it is important to others and will consider their ideas as well).

BTW, do you believe Joseph was 30 years old when he stood before Pharoah?

Yes, that is what is recorded in the scriptures, but when that occurred relative to the seven years of plenty is not recorded in the scriptures and too many people are making the wrong assumption that it occurred when the beginning of the seven years of plenty started without considering the ramifications of how that interacts with the rest of the storyline of Jacob and his descendants. However, after constructing a timeline for the life and times of Jacob and his descendants, Joseph, according to my research, was appointed to be second in command in the kingdom of Egypt by Pharaoh around 15 or so years before the seven years of plenty began.

I did this research over 15 years ago and have not found anyone yet, who can refute my understanding on the timeline of the Book of Genesis.

Be that as that may be, I still need to be challenged by knowledgeable people on the subject matters that I am interested in. Sadly, these people are few and far between and their interests do not always fully overlap with mine. It is easy to find those who express their opinions on many subjects, but whether or not they are knowledgeable is, more times than not, questionable.

Take it easy and step into God's purposes just for you.

Shalom
 
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marks

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On another thread a member asked how I advocate approaching the study of Scripture. Unfortunately the entire purpose of that thread was to troll me (which I knew before responding, but did anyway). So let’s look at methods.

Hopefully we can learn from each other and perhaps gain tools for our personal studies.

I have adopted the process(es) that I’ve learned from the works I’ve suggested elsewhere (New Testament Exegesis by Gordon Fee; The Hermeneutical Spiral by Grant Osborne; and Grasping God’s Word by Duvall and Hays). So for a source or fuller explanation of my method you may want to consult these references.

My process is, briefly, as follows:

Pray.Read the entire book from which the passage you want to explore comes at least twice without using a commentary.

Survey the historical context in general. Consider the original audience and how they are similar and how they are different from us.

Read the text through in several translations to include competing translations (especially competing translations).

Analyze sentence structures and syntactical relationships. Make a sentence flow and a sentence diagram (I prefer vertically if examining larger passages, indenting to show any shifts).

The first thing you want to do in a sentence diagram is to distinguish between major and minor clauses. Clauses are those parts of the sentence that contain a subject and a predicate. The difference between a major and minor clause is that a major clause can stand alone while a minor clause cannot.

Research the historical and cultural background. Pay attention to how the original audience would have understood the authors words and how the words have been understood throughout history.

I guess that’s it in a “nutshell”, although I’m sure it’s incomplete.

Personally I recommend reading and re-reading passages, chapter, books, 50, 100 times. Try Colossians, it's short, and deep. Read it literally 100 times in a row. That would be 3 times a day for a month. The book itself only takes 10 minutes to read. Get the audio version and listen to it every time you drive your car. Go without commentaries, and use the most literal translation you can handle.

Awkward sounding passages, things you feel you don't understand, give extra attention to. Read slowly. Work out the clauses. Cross-check with a language scholar. I like Robertson's Word Pictures of the NT. I also like Vincent's Word Studies. This can help us to know which words belong with which, since you need the syntax, not just the word order.

Start comparing the main themes you find with their parallel passages. Such as Colossians 3, put on the new man which is renewed in knowledge of the one creating him, word searches will show a parallel in Ephesians 4, put on the new man who is created after God, in righteousness and true holiness.

Or later in 3, husbands and wives, like in Ephesians 5, or 1 Peter 3.

Examine the parallel passages, learn what they say, so as you read through Colossians, when you come to the part about the new man, you can recall to mind what the other passages say about the new man, and you will read with the full context in mind.

Read large amount quickly, read small passages v-e-r-y- -s-l-o-w-l-y. Make it a goal to learn "what the passage says", then go on to what it may mean.

I find that once I've isolated what is actually written, and what the other relevant passages say in their own right, then very little actual interpretation is required. Just to believe what it says.

Much love!
 

marks

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Am I correct in also seeing all the rest of the "trees" as representing not trees and the eating of pieces of fruit, at all, but a whole lot more in the life we live and the choices we make and the paths we take?

Hi Willie,

Here is an interesting thing . . .

Joel 1
11 Be ye ashamed, O ye husbandmen; howl, O ye vinedressers, for the wheat and for the barley; because the harvest of the field is perished.
12 The vine is dried up, and the fig tree languisheth; the pomegranate tree, the palm tree also, and the apple tree, even all the trees of the field, are withered: because joy is withered away from the sons of men.

All the trees are withered, become joy is withered away from the sons of man.

Much love!
 

marks

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It does make me wonder. Especially since ALL the rest of "the trees" are open to us to partake of. It seems to speak a lot to the foolishness of the religious taboos we put on things (acts and actions) that are contrary to the things we, personally decide are acceptable and "approved."
It's like we have walked through the Garden, tacking up "No Trespassing" signs on certain trees we select. And as we do so, we pass other groups nailing up their own "Verboten!" signs on different trees..... or, maybe even on our own favorite trees.
This came up the other day at home . . . there are things that we do that we know are sin, and God calls them sin. There are things we do that we don't think are sin, but God calls them sin. And I think there are things we do that God does not call sin, but we do.

But God has given us all things richly to enjoy. Only in faith.

Much love!
 

marks

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First, there are no passages that state Adam was created with a “spiritual life” so that he could spiritually die. Scripture describes “spiritual life” as being “in Christ”, and Christ Himself as this “life”.

John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

The Bible gives us a definition of eternal life. So no guesswork needed. This is why reconciliation, return to friendship.

Much love!
 
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marks

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As such, I believe it reasonable that man would fall short of the glory of God because man was created short of the glory of God.

Genesis 1:31 "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

Falling short of God's glory is the indictment against man in Romans 3.

Much love!
 
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Jay Ross

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Start comparing the main themes you find with their parallel passages. Such as Colossians 3, put on the new man which is renewed in knowledge of the one creating him, word searches will show a parallel in Ephesians 4, put on the new man who is created after God, in righteousness and true holiness.

Mark, what we must be also careful of is actually only reading what is in the text: - below are two screen shoot of different interlinears and their respective understandings: -

upload_2019-11-26_7-31-50.png

upload_2019-11-26_7-32-7.png

In both interlinears above, the word "man" is omitted as it is not in the Greek source text for Col 3:10.

Now the screen shot of Eph 4:23-24 in the PC Study Bible tells us the following: -

upload_2019-11-26_7-43-20.png

where "kainon" has the meaning of "refreshed like 'new'" and not "new" as is what is presented in our English Translations.

We all have to be careful that we do not let our English "understanding" of the translations that we use, dictate our understanding of the passage being studied. Both the Colossian and Ephesians passages are saying the same thing, but they are speaking of absorbing the "newer knowledge" and putting that "newer knowledge" into practice as we continue to grow into the nature of Christ.

We must remember that our human nature always wants to be something we are not, immediately, and baulks at the "work" that is necessary to change from our old self into the "newer" better self through the renewing of our individual minds in the knowledge of God. So often, our minds tells use that we have been "renewed" but the outworking of the "newer self" does not shout out this fact as we have not moved very far from our "old self."

Scripture does remind us that our hearts and mind can be very deceptive and that we must be careful not to deceive ourselves into believing that we have become something that we have not achieved yet.

Yes we should read passages over and over again, but we also should take the time out to meditate on the passage and chew the cud, so to speak, on the passage in question.

We must be careful that we truly do understand God's words to us in the scriptures and that it has not been corrupted through our "private," as some would call it, interpretation of the passage .

Shalom
 

marks

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Both the Colossian and Ephesians passages are saying the same thing, but they are speaking of absorbing the "newer knowledge" and putting that "newer knowledge" into practice as we continue to grow into the nature of Christ.
Well of course that's what it means.

We must remember that our human nature always wants to be something we are not, immediately, and baulks at the "work" that is necessary to change from our old self into the "newer" better self through the renewing of our individual minds in the knowledge of God. So often, our minds tells use that we have been "renewed" but the outworking of the "newer self" does not shout out this fact as we have not moved very far from our "old self."

I'm not talking about reforming the old man. Naturally that cannot occur.

Again, of course, the old man does not want the things of God. But definitely, we every one of us need to make our calling and election sure.

Yes we should read passages over and over again, but we also should take the time out to meditate on the passage and chew the cud, so to speak, on the passage in question.

Nice we agree on this!

Much love!
 

marks

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We must be careful that we truly do understand God's words to us in the scriptures and that it has not been corrupted through our "private," as some would call it, interpretation of the passage .

You may want to check your interlinears on this passage in Peter . . . his "private interpretations" actually refers to the origin of the prophecy.

No prophecy came of private interpretation, but holy men of God spoke as the Spirit moved them. One of the many misunderstood passages in the Bible.

The KJV is awkward here, "came of private interpretation", and people assume that means themselves, but it means the prophet.

Much love!
 

marks

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In both interlinears above, the word "man" is omitted as it is not in the Greek source text for Col 3:10.

Context . . .

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stripping off the old human together with his practices, and putting on the new . . .

Yes. You are correct that "man" is not used in verse 10. Just the same . . .

Put off the old man together with his practices, and put on the new, the one being renewed . . .

What exactly was your idea of what we are putting on? For me, the answer is, the New Creation.

It is called neon, after all. You put on the new.

Much love!