Biblical justification for harming or killing followers of Jesus

[Pavel Mosko]

“Deck stacking”? If you want to harden me in my position, that’s how to do it.

How would you respond if I said things like that about you?

Well, I already consider you hardened in your position. I just felt it was worth pointing out seeing you seem to be casting on shade on the pious Roman Centurions of the New Testament, creating doubt on if they were actually believers or not, when most folks would see them as something like Noahides of later Talmudic Judaism. Besides that, I found it fishy you being set to ignore or disregard the various Christian military martyrs and saints in the decades just before Constantine.

 

[Anchorite]

It was Ignatius of Antioch.
Ignatius of Antioch (c. AD 107–110) explicitly distinguishes Christianity as its own distinct faith and way of life in his seven genuine epistles (the shorter recension, widely accepted as authentic by scholars). These were written while he was being taken to Rome for martyrdom. He uses the term Christianismos (Christianity) substantively—among the earliest surviving examples of the word in this sense—and urges believers to live according to its principles rather than “Judaizing” (practicing Judaism or adopting its observances in a way that undermines grace and Christ’s centrality).

Long before Ignatius, Christianity was seen as a distinct religion apart from Judaism.

The apostle Paul spoke of the difference by calling Judaism “the Jews’s religion” in contrast to the church.


Galatians 1

13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

 

[Matthias]

What biblical justification, if any, is there for Christians to call down harm or that God might kill any man?

Off the top of my head I recall two (James and John) asking Jesus if they should call down the wrath of God and he rebuked them.

Have you ever heard of one praying a prayer of imprecation (a spoken curse) by elders in the church while praying in the presence of the congregation?

No.

I've recently been hearing this defended as though it's okay for believers to pray for God to physically remove (kill) our enemies???

I think it’s fine to ask God to take away an enemy or to protect from an enemy but I don’t think asking God to kill an enemy is in the spirit of the teaching of Jesus and the apostles. Asking God to save an enemy falls well within the scope of the Great Commission.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

View attachment 86570

Christians killing fellow Christians and trying to rationalize it. We are here.

Christians killing non-Christians -> the mission field has become the killing field. We can’t get to that when we can’t get past Christians killing fellow Christians.

Nobody saying this, a complete Strawman. I am not Saul from Tarsus or the Sanhedrin, or even the Inquisition or the Albigensian Crusade who literally did this kind of thing!

 

[Matthias]

Well, I already consider you hardened in your position.

In light of my post # 33, that surprises me.

I just felt it was worth pointing out seeing you seem to be casting on shade on the pious Roman Centurions of the New Testament, creating doubt on if they were actually believers or not, when most folks would see them as something like Noahides of later Talmudic Judaism.

I appreciate that.

Besides that, I found it fishy you being set to ignore or disregard the various Christian military martyrs and saints in the decades just before Constantine.

I haven’t ignored or disregarded the history. I’ve written extensively about it.

 

[rwb]

Off the top of my head I recall two (James and John) asking Jesus if they should call down the wrath of God and he rebuked them.

No.

I think it’s fine to ask God to take away an enemy or to protect from an enemy but I don’t think asking God to kill an enemy is in the spirit of the teaching of Jesus and the apostles. Asking God to save an enemy falls well within the scope of the Great Commission.

This defines my view also. Thank you! Do you believe this manner of elders praying in the congregation is a reason to consider departing from this particular Church?

 

[Matthias]

Nobody saying this, a complete Strawman.

They have been saying it in discussions which have taken place in other threads. We won’t have to look far at all to find Christians rationalizing Christians killing fellow Christians in the wars of the nations.

I am not Saul from Tarsus or the Sanhedrin, or even the Inquisition or the Albigensian Crusade who literally did this kind of thing!

 

[Matthias]

This defines my view also. Thank you! Do you believe this manner of elders praying in the congregation is a reason to consider departing from this particular Church?

Have you discussed the matter privately with the elders and your pastor?

 

[lforrest]

Reminds me of the Christmas truce in WW1 has anything like that happened before or sense?

 

[rwb]

Have you discussed the matter privately with the elders and your pastor?

It's not happening in the Church I attend, but the elders and pastor of this particular denomination is rationalizing prayer that asks God to kill our enemies. They believe the Bible grants justification for this type of praying, especially in the Psalms. But all of their rationalizing comes from the OT before Christ came to establish the New Covenant.

 

[Matthias]

It's not happening in the Church I attend, but the elders and pastor of this particular denomination is rationalizing prayer that asks God to kill our enemies. They believe the Bible grants justification for this type of praying, especially in the Psalms. But all of their rationalizing comes from the OT before Christ came to establish the New Covenant.

I would try speaking with the elders privately and if that didn’t go anywhere - and it sounds to me like it probably wouldn’t - then I would depart.

 

[rwb]

I would try speaking with the elders privately and if that didn’t go anywhere - and it sounds to me like it probably wouldn’t - then I would depart.

Thanks Matthias, this is happening in the church my son attends, and yes, he spoke to elders and pastor and no it didn't go anywhere. I have encouraged him to consider leaving, but since his wife is not on board with that, it may create a whole new problem for him. Seeing this particular topic, I thought it might be helpful to hear from other Christians to know if this is common, because I've been attending churches for several years and I have never heard a prayer from anyone in the church that asks for God to remove by death anyone from this earth. It kind of sounds like making themselves judges of another person's heart. I can't help but think about Jonah when he didn't want to preach to Ninevah because he knew of God's compassion. God certainly did not tell him he was okay with that.. Thanks again, many blessings.

 

[Matthias]

What biblical justification, if any, is there for followers of Jesus to harm or kill fellow followers of Jesus?

None.