Biblical Mary

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I was not saying or suggesting anything. I was reacting to what your brethren in the RCC said regarding Mary, and I quote “In the first moment of her existence God created her without original sin”.

<<<But Mary needed a saviour to save her from the effects of original sin that she would normally be afflicted with as we all are.>>>

Can I read anything about that conception and about how she was supposedly saved from the effects of original sin? Or is this just a speculation or conjecture or a make belief?

Why do you say that Mary needed a Savior to save her from the effects of ‘original sin’?

She needed saving from the effects of original sin because either:
a) Jesus would have been afflicted wither effects of original sin
or
b) Jesus would need a saviour.

Jesus was conceived pure and immaculate because Mary was pure and immaculate. As Job said “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one.” (Job 14:4).

We can be saved in two ways. An example often given is falling into a muddy pit.
1. Being rescued from the muddy pit after we have fallen into it
2. Being prevented from falling into that muddy it at the moment we are about to fall into it

In Lk 1:18 the angel greets Mary with the Greek word kecharitomene which is sometimes translated as “highly favoured”. However this a rather weak translation and more accurately is should be translated as “full of grace”. Even that is a simplification. The Greek kecharitomene is the perfect passive participle of the Greek charitoo. It means endowed with grace. The Greek perfect tense denotes something which took place in the past and continues in the present.

"It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, (University of Chicago Press, 1961), 166; H.W. Smyth, Greek Grammar (Cambridge Harvard University Press, 1968, sect 1852:b. - citation from Dave Armstong's A Biblical Defense of Catholicism, p178)
So Mary was completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.

<<<She needed saving from the effects of original sin because either:
a) Jesus would have been afflicted wither effects of original sin
or
b) Jesus would need a saviour.>>>

Can I read anything about that in scriptures? If so, please cite the scriptures. If not, is this just RCC reasoning using human logic, or is this speculation, or is this conjecture, or is this make belief?

Also, may I know your response to my question “Can I read anything about that conception and about how she was supposedly saved from the effects of original sin?”

<<<In Lk 1:18 the angel greets Mary with the Greek word kecharitomene which is sometimes translated as “highly favoured”. However this a rather weak translation and more accurately is should be translated as “full of grace”. >>>

I think you are referring to Luke 1:28.

To take “ketcharitomene” as “full of grace” would put Mary equal to Jesus in that respect, for in John 1:14, Jesus is said to be full of grace. Do you or RCC believe and teach that Mary is equal to Jesus in that respect?

Tong
R4676

 

[Tong2020]

None is true

Sin passed from adam (male) not eve (female)

Jesus would only have been tainted with sin if a man touched the seed of mary

What do you mean “if a man touched the seed of Mary”?

Tong
R4677

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What do you mean “if a man touched the seed of Mary”?

Tong
R4677

How does the male seed touch the female seed and make a living cell?

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
What do you mean “if a man touched the seed of Mary”?

How does the male seed touch the female seed and make a living cell?

I was asking to make sure I got what you meant by saying “if a man touched the seed of Mary”. So, what do you exactly mean by that? How would that make Jesus been tainted with sin?

I am wanting to know what you meant in your post to Mungo regarding that.

Tong
R4678

 

[Mungo]

<<<She needed saving from the effects of original sin because either:
a) Jesus would have been afflicted wither effects of original sin
or
b) Jesus would need a saviour.>>>

Can I read anything about that in scriptures? If so, please cite the scriptures. If not, is this just RCC reasoning using human logic, or is this speculation, or is this conjecture, or is this make belief?

It's logic base on Original Sin.

Also, may I know your response to my question “Can I read anything about that conception and about how she was supposedly saved from the effects of original sin?”

There are no details of the actual moment when she was immaculately conceived but we can work backwards from the result.

<<<In Lk 1:18 the angel greets Mary with the Greek word kecharitomene which is sometimes translated as “highly favoured”. However this a rather weak translation and more accurately is should be translated as “full of grace”. >>>

I think you are referring to Luke 1:28.

Yes, thanks for the correction

To take “ketcharitomene” as “full of grace” would put Mary equal to Jesus in that respect, for in John 1:14, Jesus is said to be full of grace. Do you or RCC believe and teach that Mary is equal to Jesus in that respect?

Tong
R4676

In that one way , yes. But that doesn't make her equal to Jesus in other ways.
Stephen was described as 'full of grace' (Acts 6:8)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I was asking to make sure I got what you meant by saying “if a man touched the seed of Mary”. So, what do you exactly mean by that? How would that make Jesus been tainted with sin?

I am wanting to know what you meant in your post to Mungo regarding that.

Tong
R4678

Jesus would not be tainted by sin, Because Adam's seed never touched Eve's seed to contaminate it.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I was asking to make sure I got what you meant by saying “if a man touched the seed of Mary”. So, what do you exactly mean by that? How would that make Jesus been tainted with sin?

I am wanting to know what you meant in your post to Mungo regarding that.

Jesus would not be tainted by sin, Because Adam's seed never touched Eve's seed to contaminate it.

That made it more difficult for me to understand what you are saying. Adam and Eve now is in the mix.

I hope you can explain it in plain and easy to understand way.

Tong
R4681

 

[theefaith]

Precious friend, Yes, Very Amazing! For me, after leaving religion, I found out what
Mary AND I had in common, as SINNERS!: We BOTH Very Badly NEEDED:

A SAVIOUR! Amen. Praise God, SHE "said so!":

Luk_1:47 "And my spirit hath rejoiced in God MY SAVIOUR!"

Thanks be Unto God, HE "Also SAVED me, TOO!" And, like her, I REJOICE Also!!

You’re not saved! Matt 24:13
Christ saves us in two ways to forgive our sins, and to preserve us from future sin
Mary was preserved from original sin in the first moment of her being created by God! The immaculate conception Lk 1:49

 

[theefaith]

Precious friend, Yes, Very Amazing! For me, after leaving religion, I found out what
Mary AND I had in common, as SINNERS!: We BOTH Very Badly NEEDED:

A SAVIOUR! Amen. Praise God, SHE "said so!":

Luk_1:47 "And my spirit hath rejoiced in God MY SAVIOUR!"

Thanks be Unto God, HE "Also SAVED me, TOO!" And, like her, I REJOICE Also!!

matt 16:18 18:18 bound on earth bound in heaven

Ineffabilis Deus
The Immaculate Conception
Pope BI. Pius IX - 1854

“We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.”

Gen 3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
(Enmities total war, none of satan’s works found in Her immaculate purity)

Lk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
(Immaculate purity, full of grace, blessed)

Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
(Mary must have immaculate purity)

Lk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. (Preserved from all sin in virtue of the merits of the blood of the savior who is Her son)

Lk 1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
(Immaculate conception of Mary and the miraculous conception of Jesus)

Song of Solomon 4:1 Behold, thou art fair, my love; behold, thou art fair; thou hast doves' eyes within thy locks: thy hair is as a flock of goats, that appear from mount Gilead.

Rev 12:1 a woman clothed with the sun.
(Immaculate purity)

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<She needed saving from the effects of original sin because either:
a) Jesus would have been afflicted wither effects of original sin
or
b) Jesus would need a saviour.>>>

Can I read anything about that in scriptures? If so, please cite the scriptures. If not, is this just RCC reasoning using human logic, or is this speculation, or is this conjecture, or is this make belief?

It's logic base on Original Sin.

Thank you for your honest answer. At least now I know that I could not find that in scriptures. It sure did save me a lot of precious time.

Tong2020 said: ↑
Also, may I know your response to my question “Can I read anything about that conception and about how she was supposedly saved from the effects of original sin?”

There are no details of the actual moment when she was immaculately conceived but we can work backwards from the result.

Again thank you. That saves me a lot of precious time and not waste time looking for it in scriptures.

Tong2020 said: ↑
To take “ketcharitomene” as “full of grace” would put Mary equal to Jesus in that respect, for in John 1:14, Jesus is said to be full of grace. Do you or RCC believe and teach that Mary is equal to Jesus in that respect?

In that one way , yes. But that doesn't make her equal to Jesus in other ways.
Stephen was described as 'full of grace' (Acts 6:8)

You mentioned Stephen as said to be full of grace in Acts 6:8. Now John 1:14 said of Jesus as full of grace. And “full of grace” in both verses, in the Greek are identical, that is “pleres charitos”. While in Luke 1:28 the Greek is “ketcharitomene”. In both Acts 6:8 and John 1:14, the word “pleres” means “full” and “charitos” means grace. So, I take it that “ketcharitomene” would not be “full of grace”. As most the versions translate it “highly favored one”.

Tong
R4682

 

[theefaith]

Apparently, you don't fully believe the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Here's #1511 for you -

1511 The Church believes and confesses that among the seven sacraments there is one especially intended to strengthen those who are being tried by illness, the Anointing of the Sick:

This sacred anointing of the sick was instituted by Christ our Lord as a true and proper sacrament of the New Testament. It is alluded to indeed by Mark, but is recommended to the faithful and promulgated by James the apostle and brother of the Lord

What part of "James the apostle and brother of the Lord" don't you understand? It is not referring to two different people, only James.

he can be brother and have a different mother

Brothers and sisters of Jesus?

They are not the children of Mary!

Is 7:14 a virgin shall conceive and bear a son!
(One son, singular)

James is the son of zebedee, and the other James is the son of Alpheus not Joseph!
Matt 10:2-3

In Hebrew culture any close relative can be called brother or sister, lot was called Abraham’s brother but was his nephew.

Gen 12:5 and Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son..

Gen 13:8 And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdsmen and thy herdsmen; for we are Brothers.

The 12 sons of Jacob are brothers but all are not the children of Leah and all are not the children of Rachel! They had 4 mother’s, These may be brothers but they are simply not the children of One mother and the brothers of Jesus are not the children of Mary!

Jose’s, Simon Salome are children of another Mary!

Mk 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;

Is Mary the mother of James?
If you mean the Blessed Virgin Mary then no. Her sister-in-law, Mary of Clopas, was the wife of Alphaeus (St. Joseph's brother), and mother of Simon, Joseph, and the apostles Judas Thaddeus, and James (the Less, brother of the Lord): Jesus' cousins.

The "sisters" of Jesus refer to women disciples

Salome, or Mary Salome, was the wife of Zebedee, and mother of apostles John (the beloved), and James (the greater).


Regarding Mat. 13:55 and Mk. 6:3, two of the four "brethren" are James and Judas of Alphaeus (cf. Mat. 10:2-3, Lk. 6:15-16, Act. 1:13). The third, Joseph, is identified in Mk. 15:40 as the brother of James of Alphaeus. The fourth, Simon, is identified in Mat. 13:55 and Mk. 6:3 as the brother of Joseph, James, and Judas of Alphaeus. Therefore, all four are were the sons of Alphaeus, not St. Joseph and the Blessed Virgin Mary.

When Jesus was twelve they went up to Jerusalem, the holy family, Joseph, Mary, and Jesus. Where are the brothers and sisters?

Jesus on the cross gives His mother to John, why? Why not James or a brother? Perhaps the law of Moses requires a mother to be given to the next oldest son? Because he was an only Son!
Only begotten of the Father, only begotten of the Mother.

only Jesus Christ is biological child of Mary
Isa 7:14 matt 1:23 Lk 1:34

 

[theefaith]

So, there was no need for her mother to have been immaculately conceived as well? It is just strange that regarding Jesus’ conception, it needs be that Mary should be without sin or immaculate such that the idea that Mary’s immaculately conception have been brought forth by the RCC, and not with Mary’s mother.

If by a miracle, a natural conception could bring forth Mary as sinless and immaculate and without the original sin that the RCC teach, it is strange that it could not be with Jesus, that for Jesus to be without original sin, it needs for Mary to be without sin and original sin as well.

Well,…thank you. At least now I know come to know a bit more of what RCC believes about that.

Tong
R4673

More than without original sin Mary was filled with all graces from God

 

[Tong2020]

You’re not saved! Matt 24:13
Christ saves us in two ways to forgive our sins, and to preserve us from future sin
Mary was preserved from original sin in the first moment of her being created by God! The immaculate conception Lk 1:49

I can see that your supporting scriptures for Mary’s immaculate conception is Luke 1:49. At least I now know where that is coming from.

Luke 1:49 For He who is mighty has done great things for me,
And holy is His name.

Tong
R4683

 

[Tong2020]

More than without original sin Mary was filled with all graces from God

Like Jesus?

Tong
R4684

 

[theefaith]

I can see that your supporting scriptures for Mary’s immaculate conception is Luke 1:49. At least I now know where that is coming from.

Luke 1:49 For He who is mighty has done great things for me,
And holy is His name.

Tong
R4683

Things the immaculate conception of Mary
And
The miraculous conception of Jesus by the HS

 

[theefaith]

Like Jesus?

Tong
R4684

Jesus is God and the source of all grace



Mary made worthy in the immaculate conception to receive grace the HS and the savior and our salvation

Notice how Christ died for us!

Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

We were not worthy to die for our own salvation!

It’s similar with grace, we are not worthy to receive grace, so God made Mary by the immaculate conception worthy to receive all grace for us, and worthy to miraculously conceive of the Holy Spirit and to give birth to our savior and worthy to receive our salvation!

Lk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Lk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

Lk 2:30 I have seen my salvation.

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Lk 1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.

This applies to Mary not by nature but by the power and will of God!


Mediatrix does not make Mary the mediator or violate 1 Tim 2:5
Anyone who is in the communion of saints is in union and may pray and make intercession for one another! Rev 5:8
All graces come by Jesus Christ Jn 1:16-17 and Jesus came thru Mary,
matt 1:23 so all graces come thru Mary!
Mary is full of grace the throne of divine grace! Heb 4:16
All generations shall call me blessed!
Lk 1:48

Blessed be the great Mother of God, Mary most Holy.
Blessed be her Holy and Immaculate Conception.
Blessed be her Glorious Assumption.
Blessed be the name of Mary, ever Virgin and Mother.

Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints. Amen.

Praise of Mary & the saints ends in God!
All merits, graces, and virtues of Mary come from God & Christ!

1 Corinthians 4:7
For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

2 Thessalonians 1:10
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe…

No one believed more than Mary! Lk 1:45

Co-redemptrix
Eve a Virgin by the communication of a fallen angel cooperated in the fall of man, the first Adam, gen 3 and it is fitting that Mary a Virgin by the communication of a good angel should cooperate in the redemption of man, the new Adam! Lk 1:28-38

Advocate
Mary help of Christians, pray for us!
Mary is the advocate of Christians because she is our spiritual mother. Jn 19:26-27 rev 12:17
Her intercession is great charity, for even before she is asked she sees a need and fills it. John 2:3 they have no wine, and Christ honors his mother, and never refuses her prayers, and because of her powerful intercession the newlyweds were spared Shame, and His disciples believed. Jn 2:10-11

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I can see that your supporting scriptures for Mary’s immaculate conception is Luke 1:49. At least I now know where that is coming from.

Luke 1:49 For He who is mighty has done great things for me,
And holy is His name.

Things the immaculate conception of Mary
And
The miraculous conception of Jesus by the HS

Oh. What else do you see in “things” in Luke 1:49? How about her being the Queen of Heaven? The Mediatrix?

Tong
R4685

 

[theefaith]

Oh. What else do you see in “things” in Luke 1:49? How her being the Queen of Heaven? The Mediatrix?

Tong
R4685

no Mary is queen cos Christ is king

Old Testament type or example provided by God for our instruction!

Queen Esther

Queen Esther fair: est 2:7
Mary all fair: gen 3:15 Song of Solomon 4:12 Lk 1:28 rev 12:1

And the king loved Esther above all the women, and she obtained grace and favour in his sight more than all the virgins; est 2:17
Song of S. 4:2 love of God for Mary!
And the angel entered to her, and said, Hail Mary, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed be thou among women.
Lk 1:28 also Lk 1:30 1:42 1:45 1:48
Mary obtained grace and favor: Lk 1:28
Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Esther merits the graces of the king for the people. Est
Mary merits the graces we need but don’t deserve. Lk 1:30
Mother is the mother of our savior and our salvation! Lk 2:30 matt 1:21

They prayed to Esther to intercede for them before the king. As Mary intercedes for Christians before God.

Queen Esther found favor with the king: est 2:17
Mary found favor with God: Lk 1:30

Queen Esther saves her people interceding with the king: est 8:17
Mary provides the savior of the world!
Lk 2:10-11

Queen Esther receives half the kingdom!
Mary receives half the kingdom, Christ retains the kingdom of justice as just judge and Mary is the queen of grace & mercy! Hence the throne of grace is Mary’s throne! Heb 4:16
Depicted in genesis as the greater light that rules the day (those living in God’s will) and the lesser light that governs the night (those living in sin) Mary the mother of mercy and refuge of sinners!
Notice the sun is the source of all good and moon only reflects this goodness!
She directs all to Her divine son! Jn 2:5


Mary is created by God thru the immaculate conception worthy to receive grace, and the miraculous conception of the Holy Spirit, and the savior and our salvation!

Notice how Christ died for us!

Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

We were not worthy to die for our own salvation!

The same applies to grace, we are not worthy to receive grace, so God made Mary by the immaculate conception worthy to receive all grace for us, and worthy to miraculously conceive of the Holy Spirit and to give birth to our savior and worthy to receive our salvation!

Lk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Lk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

Lk 2:30 I have seen my salvation.

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Lk 1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.

God will not give grace to one who is not worthy or who cannot receive it, God will not give graces only to be lost or wasted but must be Efficacious!

All graces are merited by Christ (Jn 1:16-17 1 Jn 1:7) and given to men in the immaculate conception, (Lk 1:28 Lk 1:49 Heb 4:16 until we are able thru baptism (Jn 3:5) to receive them!

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Mary had this faith for us, (Lk 1:45 )and became the mother of our salvation!
(Lk 2:30)

Romans 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Just as redemption is held in Christ so grace is held on Mary! Lk 1:28 full of grace Heb 4:16 the throne of grace Lk 1:30 found favor of our salvation

This applies to Mary not by nature but by the power and will of God!

A good tree!

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

The fruit of the tree of Mary is our salvation! Lk 2:30 Jesus is our salvation!
Lk 1:30 Mary found our salvation!

Queen of heaven
In the line of david’s kingdom the mother of the king is always queen!
Jesus is king Lk 1:32-33
And Jesus is the king of heaven & earth & all the angels & saints, so Mary is queen of heaven & earth & all the angels & saints!

A Royal greeting!

Lk 1:28 is the only place in the Bible where such a greeting takes place!
Mary is of the tribe of Judah and the royal house of David the king!

God himself is greeting Mary thru the instrument of the angel Gabriel!

This is a Royal greeting of the queen of heaven and earth! Queen of the angels and saints! Mary is of the house of king David!

In the line of king David the mother of the king is the queen, as Jesus Christ is the king of heaven and earth and the angels and saints so Mary is the queen of the same! Lk 1:32-33

The mother of any king is automatically queen and rules half the kingdom!
The queen mother!

Lk 1:28 And the angel entered to her, and said, Hail, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed be thou among women.
29 And when she had heard, she was troubled in his word, and thought what manner salutation this was.
30 And the angel said to her, Dread thou not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

Mary is queen in rev 12:1 and heb 4:16
Mother of divine grace who is the throne of divine grace!

 

[Mungo]

You mentioned Stephen as said to be full of grace in Acts 6:8. Now John 1:14 said of Jesus as full of grace. And “full of grace” in both verses, in the Greek are identical, that is “pleres charitos”. While in Luke 1:28 the Greek is “ketcharitomene”. In both Acts 6:8 and John 1:14, the word “pleres” means “full” and “charitos” means grace. So, I take it that “ketcharitomene” would not be “full of grace”. As most the versions translate it “highly favored one”.

Tong
R4682

"full of grace" is correct.

"It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, (University of Chicago Press, 1961), 166; H.W. Smyth, Greek Grammar (Cambridge Harvard University Press, 1968, sect 1852:b. - citation from Dave Armstong's A Biblical Defense of Catholicism, p178)

The Protestant Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament says:
"Highly favored (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Eph 1:6.... The Vulgate gratiae plena "is right if it means'full of crace which thou hast received''; wrong , if it means 'full of grace which thou hast to bestow." (Plummer)

Saint Jerome, who was trilingual in Latin, Geek and Hebrew translated it as gratiae plena (full of grace) in the Vulgate (beginning of 5th century).


“chaire kecharitomene”

“chaire” - Means "hail” or “rejoice”

"charis" – Means “grace”

"charitoo" – Greek verb ending in omicron omega (“oo”) means to put the person or thing into the state indicated by the root. The root being "charis" or “grace,” "charitoo" means “to put into a state of "grace.”

"ke" – Greek perfect tense prefix indicates a perfected, completed present state as a result of past action. Thus, a perfected, completed present state of "charis," or “grace,” as a result of past action.

"mene" – Greek passive participle suffix indicates action performed on subject by another. Thus, a perfected, completed present state of "charis," or “grace,” as a result of the past action of another. As the speaker is the angel Gabriel, the "other" is God.

Therefore, "chaire kecharitomene" means: “Hail, who has been perfectly and completely graced by God.” The common Catholic rendering, "full of grace," while good, may actually fall short!

I had a link to the source for this but it seems not to work any more. Presumably the page has been moved.

 

[Tong2020]

"full of grace" is correct.

"It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, (University of Chicago Press, 1961), 166; H.W. Smyth, Greek Grammar (Cambridge Harvard University Press, 1968, sect 1852:b. - citation from Dave Armstong's A Biblical Defense of Catholicism, p178)

The Protestant Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament says:
"Highly favored (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Eph 1:6.... The Vulgate gratiae plena "is right if it means'full of crace which thou hast received''; wrong , if it means 'full of grace which thou hast to bestow." (Plummer)

Saint Jerome, who was trilingual in Latin, Geek and Hebrew translated it as gratiae plena (full of grace) in the Vulgate (beginning of 5th century).


“chaire kecharitomene”

“chaire” - Means "hail” or “rejoice”

"charis" – Means “grace”

"charitoo" – Greek verb ending in omicron omega (“oo”) means to put the person or thing into the state indicated by the root. The root being "charis" or “grace,” "charitoo" means “to put into a state of "grace.”

"ke" – Greek perfect tense prefix indicates a perfected, completed present state as a result of past action. Thus, a perfected, completed present state of "charis," or “grace,” as a result of past action.

"mene" – Greek passive participle suffix indicates action performed on subject by another. Thus, a perfected, completed present state of "charis," or “grace,” as a result of the past action of another. As the speaker is the angel Gabriel, the "other" is God.

Therefore, "chaire kecharitomene" means: “Hail, who has been perfectly and completely graced by God.” The common Catholic rendering, "full of grace," while good, may actually fall short!

I had a link to the source for this but it seems not to work any more. Presumably the page has been moved.

No problem.

But as far as I am concerned I take “pleres charitos” = full of grace
“kecharitomene” = highly favored one

<<<The common Catholic rendering, "full of grace," while good, may actually fall short!>>>

Perhaps “pleres charitos” may actually fall short?

Good may actually fall short?

What then becomes of scriptures saying God is good? Should it not be then God is full of grace (kecharitomene)?

Tong
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