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Featured Biblical Salvation

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by ByGraceThroughFaith, Apr 5, 2021.

  1. ByGraceThroughFaith

    ByGraceThroughFaith Active Member

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    This is mainly a response to the unbiblical teaching by some of the “Reformed”, who teach that a sinner is first “regenerated” by the Holy Spirit, which then “makes them alive”, to call on the Lord for salvation. First off there is a problem here. The Holy Bible is very clear, that when it uses the term “regeneration” in relation to the salvation of sinners, it means being “born-again”, which is the same as being “saved”. Titus 3:5 says, “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit”. Here we have the term “regeneration”, from the Greek, “παλιγγενεσία”, which literally means, “again birth”. This “regeneration” is the work of God the Holy Spirit, Who uses the blood of Jesus Christ to “λουτρόν”, (bathe) the repentant sinner, and to “ἀνακαίνωσις” (renew) them by His conversion.

    Secondly, appeal is made to Ephesians 2:1-6 as a “key” passage to support this theory, that the sinner is first “regenerated”, where Paul speaks of “making alive” the sinner, who is dead in their sins. Nowhere in this passage is there even a hint to say that the sinner is first “made alive”, and then “able” to call on the Lord for their salvation. Rather, Paul is here showing how Christians used to live, “in which you once walked” (v.2), “we all once lived” (3), and how God Who is rich in His Mercy, has saved us to be His children, apart from any our merited good works! In Colossians 2:13 Paul uses very similar language, “And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together (συνεζωοποιησεν) with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses”.

    The aorist participle in the course of a narration sometimes expresses a simultaneous action…Col. ii.13” (G Winer; A Treatise on the Grammar of New Testament Greek, p.430)

    “χαρισάμενος: “forgiving”. Forgiveness is contemporary with quickening” (Expositors Greek Testament)

    “Paul identifies our being made alive with Christ as being caused by, or synonymous with, or simultaneous to, God’s having forgiven us our trespasses” (College Press Commentary)

    Here Paul tells us that the sinner is “made alive” in Jesus, at the same time that they are forgiven ALL of their sins (πάντα τὰ παραπτώματα). And not before as taught by some. There is no sequence of events in the Greek. It is very clear from this, that both passages, Ephesians 2 and Colossians 2, teach that the sinner is “made alive” on having their sins forgiven, not before of after!

    Ephesians 1:13-14 further clarifies this, Ephesians 1:13-14, “In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory”. The KJV is wrong to suggest that there is a time sequence here, but the Greek is very clear, it is “on believing in Him, [you] were sealed”, that is, “made a possession” of God the Holy Spirit. The sealing was the result of believing, and that was the result of hearing the gospel. The action of believing and sealing by the Spirit, happen simultaneously. Which is, “you heard…you believed…and then you were sealed.”. No time lapse in the Greek! The repentant, believing sinner becomes a child of God, when they are “regenerated” and “washed” and “renewed” by God the Holy Spirit.

    The clearest teaching in the New Testament on the “order of salvation” of the lost sinner, is found in Acts chapter 2.

    In this chapter of the birth of the Christian Church, we have the clearest Bible Teaching on how a lost sinner is born-again, and becomes a child of The Living God.

    Acts chapter 2 records the first “sermon” that is preached, which is by the Apostle Peter. Here we have Peter preach on the Deity, Life, Death and Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    In his sermon, Peter quotes extensively from the Prophet Joel, where we read, “and it shall be, everyone whoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord, shall be saved” (v.21, literal Greek)

    The quote is from Joel 2:32, which has “Yahweh”, and Peter here uses it for Jesus Christ, which Paul also does in Romans 10:13. Clear evidence that the Apostles believed Jesus Christ to be Yahweh, the Eternal, Unchanging, God!

    It is clear that those who heard this Gospel Message, and were convicted by God the Holy Spirit, were to “invoke”, the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation.

    After Peter had finished this message, those who were present, we are told, “were cut to the heart (κατενυγησαν την καρδιαν)” (verse 37), that is, their hearts were “pierced, stung sharply”, by the convicting of the Holy Spirit, through the preaching of Peter. Jesus Himself says in John chapter 16, “And when He (the Holy Spirit) is come, He will reprove (ἐλέγχω, to convict, find fault with) the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me”. Here in Acts is the fulfilment of these words of Jesus

    After their “conviction” by the Gospel Message, we are told that they, “said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” (37). There are some who suppose that the sinner must “do” nothing themselves. It is very clear that these sinners asked what must they DO. Neither Peter, or any of the other Apostles, say to them, that they must not “do” anything, but simply have “faith”. Instead, in the next verse we have Peter’s response. “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” (38-39). It must not be assumed from Peter’s reply, that the sinners sins are somehow removed in water baptism, which is taught by some. It is the “repenting” which is of their sins, that gets their sins forgiven. This is what the Lord Jesus says in Luke 24:47, “and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in His Name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.” The word “remission” is from the Greek ἄφεσις, which denotes, “release, as from bondage, pardon, forgiveness”, as though they had never sinned.

    We are told here, that when these sinners repented of their sins, and received forgiveness from the Lord, that they would also “receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit”. In chapter one of Acts, Jesus tells the Apostles, that not many days later, they would be “baptized with the Holy Spirit” (v 5). This was fulfilled in chapter 2, “And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit” (v 4). This is the “Gift” of the Holy Spirit, which Peter speaks of. The receiving of this Gift, we are told in Acts 1, gives “power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” (v 8).

    It is very clear from what the Bible teaches, that a sinner is only saved after they “repent and believe”, and they are not “made alive” prior to calling on the Lord for salvation, as Reformed theology wrongly teaches!
     
  2. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Nevertheless the kjv is accurate in teaching, by saying that they were sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise after that they believed, in that it teaches that being sealed with the Holy Spirit is the result of believing.

    It is indeed taught in this passage that remission of sins takes place as the result of baptism in Jesus' Name; but it is taught more completely in Acts of the Apostles 22:16.

    I realize that people have arguments against the plain meaning of scriptures like these; however in making such arguments they are "opposing themselves" (Acts of the Apostles 18:6, 2 Timothy 2:25). how much better for them to simply "get this one done" and receive baptism in Jesus' Name. You can even ask God to do the baptizing as you sprinkle clean water on your own head. As long as you pray that He does it in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, it may indeed be valid. But I would suggest also doing it publicly as soon as you get the opportunity.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2021
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  3. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Excellent point!

    Much love!
     
  4. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Casting aspersions, anyone can do that.

    But we need to understand the harmony between all the related passages, including those that tell us that the water doesn't save us, and that there is actually 1 baptism, and that baptism is into Christ Himself.

    And that being baptised into Christ, this does save us, giving us new life, and the forgiveness of sins.

    You've reference two passages, but not quoted them. So let's look at them and see if this is what they say.

    Autobaptism? Where do you find that? If you believe you require being baptized to be saved, is it really wise to try to re-invent it?

    Acts 18:5-7 KJV
    5) And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.
    6) And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.
    7) And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.

    OK, as I look at this passage, I realize it's not about baptism, you are quoting where these "opposed themselves". I'll need to look more at the context to see where this is about baptism . . .

    Acts 18:1-8 KJV
    1) After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;
    2) And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them.
    3) And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.
    4) And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
    5) And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.
    6) And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.
    7) And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.
    8) And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

    So while this mentions that some were baptized, the self opposing was apparently about rejecting Jesus as the Christ. Is that was this is to you? If someone says they don't believe water baptism saves us, they've rejected Christ?

    Let's try the other passage . . .

    2 Timothy 2:23-26 KJV
    23) But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
    24) And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
    25) In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
    26) And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

    OK, I must have misunderstood. I was expecting to find passages supporting baptismal regeneration, or the like, instead, these are passages you are applying to @ByGraceThroughFaith , to express your negative opinion of them. As if he is opposing himself as these Christ-rejectors were.

    Much love!
     
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  5. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    The simplicity is so beautiful! All who call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved.

    Much love!
     
  6. ByGraceThroughFaith

    ByGraceThroughFaith Active Member

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    Amen
     
  7. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    What passages say specifically that water doesn't save us?

    If there were any, they would contradict what we find in 1 Peter 3:20-21...

    1Pe 3:20, Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
    1Pe 3:21, The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


    So, are you saying that baptism in water is not baptism?

    Because if it is in fact baptism, then it is in fact the one baptism.

    Actually, an aspect of the three-in-one baptism that we find in scripture.

    1) water, 2) Spirit, 3) fire.

    I don't find it in holy scripture. Which is why I consider that a man also ought to receive baptism in Jesus' Name publicly from a pastor who is known to have the Holy Ghost dwelling within him.

    But if you assume that we can be baptized after we have received the Holy Spirit, then if we sprinkle clean water upon ourselves after placing our faith in Jesus Christ, then the Holy Spirit (YHWH) is sprinkling clean water on us and cleansing us from all our filthiness and all our idols. He will also place within us a new heart and a new spirit as the result; which is something distinct from receiving the Holy Spirit: it has to do with the new man being formed within us.

    Both passages have to do with those who neglect to be water-baptized and who, in defense of their lack of obedience, make arguments against such scriptures as teach that our sins can be remitted / washed away through water baptism. And thus, they are opposing themselves.

    The scriptures in question do not mention water baptism as far as I know, but they speak of the condition of those who oppose themselves. I am the one applying that to those who neglect to be water-baptized and who justify their disobedience with arguments against the holy scriptures.

    No.

    I wasn't saying anything about @ByGraceThroughFaith.

    It should be clear that he wasn't making any such arguments.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2021
  8. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    How could anyone with a smidgen of Bible knowledge come up with this absurd idea from Reformed Theology?
     
  9. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    I don't know. It seems clear to me that a man is regenerated as the result of repentance and receiving Christ.
     
  10. Amazed@grace

    [email protected] Active Member

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    Maybe this thread is God's timing. A question or an issue that has gnawed at me for awhile pertains to the matter of salvation. Aren't we asking to be saved from what is God's doing from before the beginning of time as we count it? Before our creation, before the fall, God wrote the names of the saved in the Lambs Book of Life. That is before creation. Before the fall that would necessitate something to be saved from. And even that was created by God. The knowledge tree and it's forbidden fruit. Planted in God's Eden where the angel he let to be lord of this world would enter and lead the consumption of that forbidden fruit to be consumed. And put into motion damnation and sin, all also created as part of the God-born plan that would lead to the fulfillment of that plan culminating in the names already appearing in his Book of Life. Names predating life on earth. Which tells us too that it is true that we may believe we are choosing salvation. But unless our names are in that Book of Life that predates creation we are not. Maybe that is why we are able to loose or leave the faith. Because our name isn't written down. Man's words that put the scripture to paper tells us we're seeking to be saved from all that God prearranged.
     
  11. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Hello again, sister.

    You may have had some help misinterpreting the verse in question (it happens from time to time), but the words "from the foundation of the earth" do not refer back to when our names were written in the Book, but forward to when the Lamb of God was slain in the plan and foreknowledge of God. The verse reads as follows:

    Revelation 13:8 - And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    Hope that clears things up a bit.

    Yours,
    Hidden In Him
     
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  12. Amazed@grace

    [email protected] Active Member

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    I think your reference to God's foreknowledge supports my observation. As does Psalm 139:15-17.
     
  13. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Ok, now Psalm 139 is a bit of a different matter. For one thing, in the Septuagint (Greek version of the Old Testament, and more trustworthy IMO) the sentence is written in future tense, of when their names will be written in His book. The other thing there is that the context makes what book he is actually talking about a little tough to figure out. It sounds like he is referring to a Book that contains the lists of everyone ever born on earth, but I cannot be 100% sure on that. You would have to decide for yourself.

    15 My bones, which thou madest in secret were not hidden from thee, nor my substance, in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Thine eyes saw my unwrought substance, and all men shall be written in thy book; they shall be formed by day, though there should be no one among them.
     
  14. Amazed@grace

    [email protected] Active Member

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    Doesn't the doctrine of election coincide with the Book of Life names being written before the foundation of the world?
     
  15. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Doctrine of election? Whose doctrine of election? If you are referring to verses that discuss us being chosen "in Him" from the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4), it is talking about the same thing: That we were predestined for salvation in Him, i.e. that that was the method He would use to save us.

    In context, it reads as follows:

    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 in accordance with how He has chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: 5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He has made us accepted in the Beloved. (Ephesians 1:3-6)

    The entire passage focuses on the preordained plan of God that our salvation be found only by abiding in Christ. This is what was predestined, and what we were chosen to walk in; a plan set in motion before the foundation of the world.

    The doctrine of election is different depending on whose version you are reading.
     
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  16. Amazed@grace

    [email protected] Active Member

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    That's true too. Though there are many verses that speak of God and predestination. And then there are those parts about his elect. And too those verses that tell the destiny of those whose names are not in the Book of Life. If it wasn't written before the creation of the world why would God say it was and forewarn what is to befall those who are not named within it? Are there any verses that say the book of names is future? Not predating creation? Because the title, lambs book, and it being what contains the names of the saved implies even before creation God preplanned damnation if he chose the saved people by name before the foundation of the world since he was foretold to be the lamb that was slain to save the world in later scriptures.And he did create the forbidden tree & the rules surrounding it as he put it at the center of Eden. 1st Corinthians 10:11.
     
  17. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    No, no, LoL. It also says that some stood at risk of Him blotting out their names from the Book of Life, at some point in the future from New Testament times (Revelation 3:5). If it was all already decided in the mind of God who would be saved and who would not at the foundation of the world, what would He be doing changing His mind?
     
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  18. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Let me say this: The only thing that is true about being specifically chosen by God (i.e. as individuals) is when it comes to callings. The disciples were all specifically chosen to serve in that capacity. So was Paul. So are many others even in our time, for specific jobs the Lord calls them to do, that they are especially well equipped for. It doesn't mean they have no freewill and cannot reject those callings, it just means they are chosen by God for them. If they refuse, what they were chosen for falls to someone else, or the Lord simply switches plans to something different, and uses those who would have been involved with them in their callings in some different form of ministry.
     
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  19. Tong2020

    Tong2020 Well-Known Member

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    Mankind, in Adam, were put under judgement resulting to condemnation. History, written out in scriptures, tells us what became of mankind, with Adam having chosen to hear and follow the voice of the devil. Sin made his dwelling in their flesh, making them slaves thereof. Now, even while mankind have their will, being a slave, their will does not really matter and was overtaken by sin that enslaved them. This truth could well be seen in the story of mankind in the time of the great flood in Noah’s time. What became of mankind is described by God himself who said that every intents of the thoughts of man’s heart are evil continually even from their youth. Such I would say is a state of death.

    It is obvious that mankind needs the help and salvation of God from what they have become, that is, from the state of death. That unless God gives his grace of salvation to a man, no man will be saved. We see in scriptures that God gave grace to some men, men He have chosen to give grace and save them.

    Now, considering this state of death that fallen mankind is in, we know that they have no life in them. And having no life, he can’t only not do as he wills but that he can do nothing that pertains to life. To be able to, he must be born again, and that, unto life. Only when that happens to a man, that he could do things pertaining to life.

    However, a born again man does not mean that he is perfect by having been born again, but that, he is taken out from being in the state of death or being dead, and so is enabled to do what he could not otherwise do had he not been born again. He could now see the kingdom of God.

    Tong
    R2482
     
  20. Tong2020

    Tong2020 Well-Known Member

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    Here’s what Jesus clearly said “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.

    Tong
    R2483
     
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