Black and white as it appears?

[lforrest]

No its not more about works than faith. Its simply faith and works. Scripture is pretty clear on this matter. Its not an either/or proposition its a both/and proposition. Faith by itself is not sufficient. Having said that, that doesnt mean works are sufficient either. Scripture AGAIN is clear that faith, which is necessary but not sufficient, is completed through works, which is necessary but not sufficient, for salvation. James 2:22

I disagree, one is saved entirely by faith in Jesus Christ. One can cling to their flesh and refuse to do good works. Or on the opposite end of the spectrum they can try to justify themselves before God and others by their works.

Both are missing the mark. The former calls into question if we have truly been transformed by the Spirit of God, as from our hearts our words and deeds follow.

The latter is worse, confusing the righteous of Christ for self righteousness, stemming from feelings associated with social acceptance.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Black and white as it appears?

For those accepting the whole counsel of God which is considering all He says in His Word it's simple.

For those listening to the wisdom of men being presented as though it's the wisdom of God but it just the religious ideas of men with darkened minds, it's nothing but muddy murky water where nobody knows

 

[ScottA]

I've considered myself a lifelong Christian, I've also posed another question on here about "hope" more then "certainty"...has anyone else ever questioned whether it is as black and white to get into paradise as we hear? I mean we as Christians debate tooth and nail as to what it takes...baptism, no baptism , pre destination, free will...etc

Interestingly enough Ive had my own questions as someone very introspective, very analytical etc....however it is a bit challenging. As I said earlier , I have considered myself a Christian since I can remember. During the summer of 95 I had what I thought was a "being saved" moment...someone prayed for me, and I did think I "felt" something and I certainly felt a change...only for years later to hear "feelings don't matter!" from many circles of Christianity. So I have to ask was all that just emotions and not true? Kind of goes along with a time I was going through some pretty severe anxiety, I clinged to the Bible and kept nothing but Christian tv on, only to find out they are all terrible and false teachers!(Sarcasm) , and here I think I am at the best I have ever been in following Christ. I know we must most certainly use our God given discernment, but still i get tired of hearing the everyone is a false teacher argument. So with that said, especially with my mindset it is very difficult, kind of like throwing my hands in the air and saying how do we know? I hope you can see where I am coming from.

It just makes me wonder if getting into paradise is as black and white as we are taught, especially when some Christian views on entering are so severely different (specifically thinking of the baptism vs no baptism being necessary). Listening to other views is it possible that our views whichever side we are on aren't 100 percent accurate?

It is indeed, quite black and white. However, perhaps not as you (and many) would think.

First, many explanation of the black and white nature of salvation, are only a form of law based on a particular understanding of the scriptures that may or not be accurate. There is more conjecture than truth going around: "For the children of the desolate one will be more than the children of her who is married,” says the Lord" (Isaiah 54:1).

What is indeed black and white about salvation, is it is a dividing of the light from the darkness in the hearts of all who are born. God decides, and that is His black and white dividing line. As for one way of salvation as opposed to another--again, God decides: It is written of us all, that "The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps (Proverbs 16:9). God decides.

There are however, also steps established for us to follow when in doubt. In fact, there is but on continual thread of God's interaction with mankind, revealing the steps. And yes, it should be considered a shortcut to see those steps--those on that one single thread--and to follow. That was literally Jesus' common invitation, often saying, "Follow Me."

But make no mistake--that one single thread does not exclude, anyone who gazes into the heavens, or the face of a child--and knows, and believes there is a God, and seeks Him. There is a simplicity in that, and yet it is as weak as it is strong. Better, hear and know the truth, and to follow that one thread, taking care not to follow those who themselves veer of the path. Test every spirit.

 

[nedsk]

I disagree, one is saved entirely by faith in Jesus Christ. One can cling to their flesh and refuse to do good works. Or on the opposite end of the spectrum they can try to justify themselves before God and others by their works.

Both are missing the mark. The former calls into question if we have truly been transformed by the Spirit of God, as from our hearts our words and deeds follow.

The latter is worse, confusing the righteous of Christ for self righteousness, stemming from feelings associated with social acceptance.

Faith is not sufficient for salvation. Period. It's is essential it is necessary it is needed but it is NOT sufficient for salvation because if it were it wouldn't need completion by works. Please stop this silliness if yours.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Faith is not sufficient for salvation. Period.

Don't you have to pray to mary and twirl some rosary beads too?

 

[Kokyu]

Faith is not sufficient for salvation. Period. It's is essential it is necessary it is needed but it is NOT sufficient for salvation because if it were it wouldn't need completion by works. Please stop this silliness if yours.

Faith doesn't - and can't - save anyone. Only Jesus saves (Jn. 1:4, 12; 14:6; Ac. 4:12; 1 Ti. 2:5). But our faith in Christ puts us into position to be saved by him (Jn. 3:16; Ro. 10:9-10); it's how, in part, we "draw near" to God (Ja. 4:8).

Good works don't save us, either. All of our works are tainted by our natural selfishness and sin and cannot ever meet God's standard for acceptance which is His own perfection (Matt. 5:48). And so, we read in Scripture:

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

2 Timothy 1:9
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Titus 3:5-7
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Jesus is perfect for us, fully satisfying God's holy justice, "once for all" atoning for our sin (He. 7-10:22; 2 Co. 5:21). There is nothing more God requires of us in order to adopt us as His own. What, then, of works? They are, as the apostle James explained, the natural consequence of one's faith in Christ. Just like an apple tree naturally bears apples, so, too, a genuinely born-again child of God (Jn. 3:3-7) naturally produces works that correspond to their belief in God's Truth. But no one would say that an apple tree that isn't bearing apples is not an apple tree. It could be too young to do so, or in poor soil, or starved of sufficient moisture, or sickened by pests or disease. Any number of things can prevent an apple tree from bearing apples. And so, no reasoning person would say the absence of fruit on an apple tree negates that it's an apple tree.

In the same way, no person taking God's word as it is, would think that the natural by-product of being saved - good works - are necessary to being saved. As the apple tree demonstrates, what is natural - bearing fruit - is not also necessary. For any number of reasons, a truly born-again person may not bear "fruit" in their living. They may be very new to the faith; they may be badly taught, or not taught at all; they may be sickened spiritually by false teaching, or be suffering from the "pests" of various besetting sins, well-established habits of thought and deed that cannot be immediately dissolved; they may be very physically ill, or enduring some terrible tragedy. And so on. Very often, a combination of these things hinders a saved person, making it doubly or triply difficult to produce "apples" of good works. As well, the devil gets in on all of this, exaggerating and aggravating whatever is stifling "fruit production" in the life of the saved person (1 Pe. 5:8).

Because this is the case, because various impediments can mound up around a Christian person stifling their "fruit production," we see in the NT many letters of instruction, and rebuke, and exhortation of Christians who are so stifled:

- The "carnal babes in Christ" of 1 Corinthians (1 Co. 3, 5, 6, 11).
- The believers of the province of Galatia straying into law-keeping legalism (Ga. 3:3).
- The sinning Christians at Rome who did not understand the full import of their union with Christ (Ro. 6-8:16).
- The five churches of Asia Minor guilty of much compromise and sin (Rev. 2-3).

So, no, our good works, though natural to being a child of God are not, therefore, necessary to being His child.

 

[nedsk]

Faith doesn't - and can't - save anyone. Only Jesus saves (Jn. 1:4, 12; 14:6; Ac. 4:12; 1 Ti. 2:5). But our faith in Christ puts us into position to be saved by him (Jn. 3:16; Ro. 10:9-10); it's how, in part, we "draw near" to God (Ja. 4:8).

Good works don't save us, either. All of our works are tainted by our natural selfishness and sin and cannot ever meet God's standard for acceptance which is His own perfection (Matt. 5:48). And so, we read in Scripture:

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

2 Timothy 1:9
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Titus 3:5-7
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Jesus is perfect for us, fully satisfying God's holy justice, "once for all" atoning for our sin (He. 7-10:22; 2 Co. 5:21). There is nothing more God requires of us in order to adopt us as His own. What, then, of works? They are, as the apostle James explained, the natural consequence of one's faith in Christ. Just like an apple tree naturally bears apples, so, too, a genuinely born-again child of God (Jn. 3:3-7) naturally produces works that correspond to their belief in God's Truth. But no one would say that an apple tree that isn't bearing apples is not an apple tree. It could be too young to do so, or in poor soil, or starved of sufficient moisture, or sickened by pests or disease. Any number of things can prevent an apple tree from bearing apples. And so, no reasoning person would say the absence of fruit on an apple tree negates that it's an apple tree.

In the same way, no person taking God's word as it is, would think that the natural by-product of being saved - good works - are necessary to being saved. As the apple tree demonstrates, what is natural - bearing fruit - is not also necessary. For any number of reasons, a truly born-again person may not bear "fruit" in their living. They may be very new to the faith; they may be badly taught, or not taught at all; they may be sickened spiritually by false teaching, or be suffering from the "pests" of various besetting sins, well-established habits of thought and deed that cannot be immediately dissolved; they may be very physically ill, or enduring some terrible tragedy. And so on. Very often, a combination of these things hinders a saved person, making it doubly or triply difficult to produce "apples" of good works. As well, the devil gets in on all of this, exaggerating and aggravating whatever is stifling "fruit production" in the life of the saved person (1 Pe. 5:8).

Because this is the case, because various impediments can mound up around a Christian person stifling their "fruit production," we see in the NT many letters of instruction, and rebuke, and exhortation of Christians who are so stifled:

- The "carnal babes in Christ" of 1 Corinthians (1 Co. 3, 5, 6, 11).
- The believers of the province of Galatia straying into law-keeping legalism (Ga. 3:3).
- The sinning Christians at Rome who did not understand the full import of their union with Christ (Ro. 6-8:16).
- The five churches of Asia Minor guilty of much compromise and sin (Rev. 2-3).

So, no, our good works, though natural to being a child of God are not, therefore, necessary to being His child.

Of course works are necessary. Works alone are not sufficient just like faith alone is not sufficient. I can repost all the Scripture that says so but why? There is no one so blind as the one who refuses to see. James 2:24 is a complete refutation of your claim but you try and explain it away. A man is justified by works AND (see the AND) not faith alone. He is saying works AND faith but not by faith alone. This coincides with v 14; v17; v18; v21; v22; v25 & v26, not to mention a myriad of other places in scripture. Stop it

 

[Kokyu]

Of course works are necessary.

Flat contradiction is not, by itself, a successful argument for your position. It's just contradiction - like what arguing children do on the playground.

Works alone are not sufficient just like faith alone is not sufficient.

As I showed in my last post, this isn't so. Simply asserting what you do here by no means counters what I explained or makes your assertion true. It's just an assertion, like "The moon is made of green cheese," or "Trolls live under bridges."

I can repost all the Scripture that says so but why? There is no one so blind as the one who refuses to see.

You'd do well to apply this statement to yourself.

James 2:24 is a complete refutation of your claim but you try and explain it away.

Again, this is just bald assertion which, by itself, does nothing to rebut my explanations or secure your own view.

A man is justified by works AND (see the AND) not faith alone. He is saying works AND faith but not by faith alone.

No, James is not. I think I may have already explained why earlier in this thread. In any case, Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Timothy1:9 and Titus 3:5 all explicitly rule out works as salvific. And then, there are the other things I explained in my last post about the basis upon which God accepts any of us, which James's words do nothing to deny or dissolve.

This coincides with v 14; v17; v18; v21; v22; v25 & v26, not to mention a myriad of other places in scripture. Stop it

Stop what? Explaining how in error you are? God's Truth doesn't care about what you may or may not want, what you like, or don't. It is what it is regardless of your wanting it to be other than it is. So, no, being a lover of God's Truth, I won't "Stop it."

 

[nedsk]

Flat contradiction is not, by itself, a successful argument for your position. It's just contradiction - like what arguing children do on the playground.



As I showed in my last post, this isn't so. Simply asserting what you do here by no means counters what I explained or makes your assertion true. It's just an assertion, like "The moon is made of green cheese," or "Trolls live under bridges."



You'd do well to apply this statement to yourself.



Again, this is just bald assertion which, by itself, does nothing to rebut my explanations or secure your own view.



No, James is not. I think I may have already explained why earlier in this thread. In any case, Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Timothy1:9 and Titus 3:5 all explicitly rule out works as salvific. And then, there are the other things I explained in my last post about the basis upon which God accepts any of us, which James's words do nothing to deny or dissolve.



Stop what? Explaining how in error you are? God's Truth doesn't care about what you may or may not want, what you like, or don't. It is what it is regardless of your wanting it to be other than it is. So, no, as a lover of God's Truth, I won't "Stop it."

Flat contradiction is not, by itself, a successful argument for your position. It's just contradiction - like what arguing children do on the playground.



As I showed in my last post, this isn't so. Simply asserting what you do here by no means counters what I explained or makes your assertion true. It's just an assertion, like "The moon is made of green cheese," or "Trolls live under bridges."



You'd do well to apply this statement to yourself.



Again, this is just bald assertion which, by itself, does nothing to rebut my explanations or secure your own view.



No, James is not. I think I may have already explained why earlier in this thread. In any case, Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Timothy1:9 and Titus 3:5 all explicitly rule out works as salvific. And then, there are the other things I explained in my last post about the basis upon which God accepts any of us, which James's words do nothing to deny or dissolve.



Stop what? Explaining how in error you are? God's Truth doesn't care about what you may or may not want, what you like, or don't. It is what it is regardless of your wanting it to be other than it is. So, no, being a lover of God's Truth, I won't "Stop it."

There are no contradiction unless you believe in sola fide. You want to insist that faith is sufficient for salvation but I've shown you where that's not the case. That's not a contradiction. The scriptures are contradictory only if you want to insist faith is sufficient.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

There are no contradiction unless you believe in sola fide

You people and your extra biblical "revelations" are quite funny!

When are you going to tell them all about the things catholics claim they should be doing that were not taught in God's Word by the Lord, His Apostles and were not practiced by the early church such as praying to mary, twirling roasay beads and that brown scapular business?

As though the Lord was absent minded and totally forgot to put some very important things in His Word causing everyone to be in error until the catholics came along

Since the catholics claim these extra biblical teachings are from your god, how come you aren't spreading the news like any good catholic would be doing?

I always thought that was odd about the catholics. If they truly believe their ways are the right ways, how come they aren't out there trying to convert everyone to catholicism? Weird.

 

[nedsk]

You people and your extra biblical "revelations" are quite funny!

When are you going to tell them all about the things catholics claim they should be doing that were not taught in God's Word by the Lord, His Apostles and were not practiced by the early church such as praying to mary, twirling roasay beads and that brown scapular business?

As though the Lord was absent minded and totally forgot to put some very important things in His Word causing everyone to be in error until the catholics came along

Since the catholics claim these extra biblical teachings are from your god, how come you aren't spreading the news like any good catholic would be doing?

I always thought that was odd about the catholics. If they truly believe their ways are the right ways, how come they aren't out there trying to convert everyone to catholicism? Weird.

So you're someone who believes in sola fide and Sola scriptura neither to which is biblical but you have the stones to use the phrase extra biblical in reference to others? That stupid at best and delusional at worse.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

So you're someone who believes in sola fide and Sola scriptura neither to which is biblical but you have the stones to use the phrase extra biblical in reference to others? That stupid at best and delusional at worse.

 

[nedsk]

You should laugh. I laugh at every one of your posts

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Claiming extra biblical "revelation" proves the Bible is not God's Word is a new low, even for catholics

Well I'll leave you to your different gospel and following mary and dead people

I just thought it was weird that you aren't sharing the catholic doctrines of talking to the dead, worshiping mary and all the other things you people do that Jesus, His Apostles, and the early church never taught or participated in

You should laugh. I laugh at every one of your posts

Laugh it up while you can because in the end sadly the catholics won't be laughing

 

[nedsk]

Claiming extra biblical "revelation" proves the Bible is not God's Word is a new low, even for catholics

Well I'll leave you to your different gospel and following mary and dead people

I just thought it was weird that you aren't sharing the catholic doctrines of talking to the dead, worshiping mary and all the other things you people do that Jesus, His Apostles, and the early church never taught or participated in






Laugh it up while you can because in the end sadly the catholics won't be laughing

Like sola fire and sola scriptura, nonsensical protestant drivel

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Like sola fire and sola scriptura, nonsensical protestant drivel

Why not share how mary is to be worshiped as being equal with Jesus and why we should be trying to contact the dead that have passed from this life. You know, come on out in to the open and talk about all those things God totally forgot to put in His Word.

If you think these things catholics believe are truth, why aren't you sharing them like a good catholic would be doing?
Don't you want to be a good advocate for the catholic religion or not? Maybe start a new thread about it.

I've known catholics that represent much better than you as they aren't ashamed to talk about mary worship and having a seance to contact their grand maw who died years ago and receive "wisdom" from her about how they should live their lives.

 

[nedsk]

Why not share how mary is to be worshiped as being equal with Jesus and why we should be trying to contact the dead that have passed from this life. You know, come on out in to the open and talk about all those things God totally forgot to put in His Word.

If you think these things catholics believe are truth, why aren't you sharing them like a good catholic would be doing?
Don't you want to be a good advocate for the catholic religion or not? Maybe start a new thread about it.

I've known catholics that represent much better than you as they aren't ashamed to talk about mary worship and having a seance to contact their grand maw who died years ago and receive "wisdom" from her about how they should live their lives.

That's not the issue. You believe crap that's not biblical while saying what others believe is "extra biblical". Some people might call that hypocrisy but I just call it stupid.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

That's not the issue. You believe crap that's not biblical while saying what others believe is "extra biblical". Some people might call that hypocrisy but I just call it stupid.

In other words you are so ashamed of your beliefs that you don't want to talk about them. Got it. Was just checking.

People not willing to talk about what they believe typically don't really believe it or they are ashamed of it.

 

[nedsk]

In other words you are so ashamed of your beliefs that you don't want to talk about them. Got it. Was just checking.

People not willing to talk about what they believe typically don't really believe it or they are ashamed of it.

Those aren't the topic of this thread. Start a thread and I'll be happy to discuss them. Your infantile approach to this is fascinating to watch. At least you realize your sola beliefs are drivel. The looney little monk drive so many of you to heresy

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Start a thread and I'll be happy to discuss them

It's your beliefs, why haven't you started a thread about them unless you are ashamed of them maybe?

Your infantile approach to this is fascinating to watch.

I would say seeing you wallow around in the muck and the mire of darkness is fascinating to watch, but it's sad to see really.

I don't want to see anybody live in darkness, even you!

At least you realize your sola beliefs are drivel.

Well keep telling yourself that so you can feel better about yourself.

I'll go on believing God did not LIE in His Word.