Blame God?

[Helen]

I think many people believe this but they don't take into account what God said about Job. 1) Job only sacrificed for his children. He, himself was counted righteous according to God (in addition to "perfect and upright," 1:8, God said, "In all of this [catastrophe], Job did not sin." 1:22) Actually, it was only after he was afflicted in his flesh that he blamed God that he was ever born and became bitter in his soul [broken relationship with God] .. which is what he attributes his sin to in 7:11


Yes, most people see it that way b/c he does not know of any reason why God would "punish" him .. and God wasn't. Have you ever been in this situation yourself, grace? I have. I was saved and right where I thought God was using me and I was growing exponentially in the Lord. But then He seemed to take it all away. Obviously, it appeared to me that God was to blame and I became bitter .. my relationship to Him was strained but imagine if you didn't have God's assurance that you weren't saved.

And isn't it the unpardonable sin to blame God as if He causes evil? I think Job recognized this.

skypair

Hey there.
I do see Job as a murmurer and complainer...maybe that is "sin"...but for sure not "unpardonable"!!!
Who would be saved if it were?
I see him grumpy and not understanding what God was doing with his life...
But sin? No. I have often grumped at God and even shouted when my dad was dying, yelling- " What on earth are You waiting for?...TAKE HIM!!!"
Sin? If a Father does not understand the frailty of His children then we are all lost. " He knoweth we are but dust"

I still see Job in a better light. He was set-up, but to fail.

Helen

 

[mjrhealth]

Hey there.
I do see Job as a murmurer and complainer...maybe that is "sin"...but for sure not "unpardonable"!!!
Who would be saved if it were?
I see him grumpy and not understanding what God was doing with his life...
But sin? No. I have often grumped at God and even shouted when my dad was dying, yelling- " What on earth are You waiting for?...TAKE HIM!!!"
Sin? If a Father does not understand the frailty of His children then we are all lost. " He knoweth we are but dust"

I still see Job in a better light. He was set-up, but to fail.

Helen

Job, wasnt set up to fail, God cannot fail, so therefore Job couldnt fail, he was blessed by God, went through much, an example for us to the trials we face when we pursue after God. God has never set us up to fail, but to overcome and live in that victory that Christ achieved when He laid down His life for us.

 

[Helen]

As Joseph said- " It was meant against me for evil, but God meant it for good.."

 

[Helen]

Job, wasnt set up to fail, God cannot fail, so therefore Job couldnt fail, he was blessed by God, went through much, an example for us to the trials we face when we pursue after God. God has never set us up to fail, but to overcome and live in that victory that Christ achieved when He laid down His life for us.

Agree, it was a time of God refining Job...for sure not punishing him. But perfecting a 'stone' for His Temple.

 

[mjrhealth]

I spent much time complaining, but now I just tell God as I see it. God knows our lifes problems, sometimes all He hopes for is that we would discuss them with Him as any "good" father would. Besides God is not blind, He know our end from the beginning, so we hold no surprises for Hi. If we where to hide behind a wall, and shout "boo" to God as He passed, He would have to put on an act, as if He was surprised, because He always knew it was coming.

 

[Helen]

Good post @mjrhealth ... lol

 

[skypair]

.but for sure not "unpardonable"!!!
Who would be saved if it were?

That is correct. Did I not say without repentance unpardonable?

I see him grumpy and not understanding what God was doing with his life...

I point to is as blaming God because in 7:20 he acknowledged he had sinned against God and there is nothing before that that talks of his bitterness except Job 3 .. which I see as him blaming God that He ever created him. Surely, God meant it for good but Job saw it as evil.

I hope that clears it up. Can you find anywhere else that indicates a sin that Job knew he had committed?

skypair

 

[skypair]

Job, wasnt set up to fail, God cannot fail, so therefore Job couldnt fail, he was blessed by God,

Right. We have to remember a few things. 1) We Christians in the church age are the only ones who don't fall short of God's expectations and that is because He gives us His Spirit within us to keep us holy. 2) God did allow Satan to get to Job .. but with us, it is we who let Satan in via our sin. 3) Job was not saved until Job 42:6, 10.

skypair

 

[aspen]

Reading the book of Job with a 21st century mind is not helpful. Jobs children and wife were considered part of his wealth, not as family in the sense we think of our families.

 

[mjrhealth]

Right. We have to remember a few things. 1) We Christians in the church age are the only ones who don't fall short of God's expectations and that is because He gives us His Spirit within us to keep us holy. 2) God did allow Satan to get to Job .. but with us, it is we who let Satan in via our sin. 3) Job was not saved until Job 42:6, 10.

skypair

cept we are not in teh church age, ended years ago...

 

[FHII]

To me the part I have underlined and emboldened is where Job really was missing something important. Even when done with the best of intentions, walking in our own way always gets us into trouble with God

Well, again I don't see it that way. So let me ask a question: what were "his own ways" that were wrong?

The way I see it his own ways were trusting the Lord, even if God was going to slay him. In no way was God punishing Job for anything he did.

 

[Stranger]

Right. We have to remember a few things. 1) We Christians in the church age are the only ones who don't fall short of God's expectations and that is because He gives us His Spirit within us to keep us holy. 2) God did allow Satan to get to Job .. but with us, it is we who let Satan in via our sin. 3) Job was not saved until Job 42:6, 10.

skypair

So many lies. Christians fall short all the time. And Job was no more a sinner than we Christians. God can bring evil into our lives just as He did with Job for His own purpose. Job was saved before (Job 1:1). A simple reading of (Job 1:1) will reveal that.

Stranger

 

[aspen]

It is impossible to love anyone deeply if you cannot trust them.

 

[amadeus]

Well, again I don't see it that way. So let me ask a question: what were "his own ways" that were wrong?

The way I see it his own ways were trusting the Lord, even if God was going to slay him. In no way was God punishing Job for anything he did.

In any measure that our ways are not as His Way, are they not coming up short? God was not punishing Job, but helping the man to move closer to God. How close can any of us get to God? The limit is never in God. Any limit is in ourselves. Anything that we do that is not exactly as God would have us do us hinders our approach, even if what we do is not sin.

Were all of Job's ways or your ways or my way equal to God's Way?

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9

Job was on the approach to a closer walk as each one of should be. As continue to walk and continue to lean of Him, will He not help us to approach more closely, whatever it takes?

 

[FHII]

Anything that we do that is not exactly as God would have us do us hinders our approach, even if what we do is not sin.

Please consider these verses:

Job 1:8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 1:22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

42:7 And it was so, that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath

Your statement that anything that we do that isn't exactly as God would have us do hinders us is true. However it seems by these verses that wasn't an issue in this case. When Job said "but I will maintain my ways..." are shown here. God said he was upright, perfect (as a man) eshewed evil, feared the Lord and answered correctly. Even in that verse the punctuation (note the colon) suggests that "maintaining his own ways" was trusting God.

God did give Job an epic lecture about trying to be as smart as God (generally speaking) but God told his friends he (Job) was right.

On a related note, trying to ffindsin, error or fault in Job's character or actions is exactly what his "friends" were doing. We shouldn't be following their lead.

If you want to say this was God bri ging Job closer to him I won't object... Obviously anytime God deals with you this personally that is going to happen. However, I see no fault in Job nor his actions or speech. Again, God lectured him but God also said he answered correctly.

Another sidenote to diffuse the inevidable question (from anyone): no, I am not saying Job was sinless nor am I saying he was perfect. I am merely pointing out God said he was upright and a perfect man.

As always Amadeus, I appreciate the conversation.

 

[skypair]

Another sidenote to diffuse the inevidable question (from anyone): no, I am not saying Job was sinless nor am I saying he was perfect. I am merely pointing out God said he was upright and a perfect man.

Right, he was acceptable in heaven on account of his innocence up until Job 3 where he began blaming God to his affliction. From then on he needed restoration of his relationship to God (salvation).

skypair

 

[amadeus]

Please consider these verses:

Job 1:8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 1:22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

42:7 And it was so, that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath

Your statement that anything that we do that isn't exactly as God would have us do hinders us is true. However it seems by these verses that wasn't an issue in this case. When Job said "but I will maintain my ways..." are shown here. God said he was upright, perfect (as a man) eshewed evil, feared the Lord and answered correctly. Even in that verse the punctuation (note the colon) suggests that "maintaining his own ways" was trusting God.

I believe that Job was perfect in the eyes of God according to what he had and what he was doing with what he had. When the trials come upon him, he does well, but at least as we see it with our eyes of flesh, not so well as he might.

This is like comparing King David with King Saul. Looking at the sins listed in scripture for David versus Saul we might think David, if anything did worse than Saul. This not so because of the way Saul handled things when confronted with sin versus the way David handled things. Saul was quick to justify himself or blame others, while David was ready to pay the price... even to his own death.

Similarly while Job complained he simply wished he had never been born. He did not blame others... nor in, his case, God. Rather when he answered his wife who advised him to curse God:

"But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips." Job 2:10

At that Job had a lot more on his plate than he did in first verse where he is described as a perfect man eschewing evil. The hedge had been removed and the heat was turned up...

God did give Job an epic lecture about trying to be as smart as God (generally speaking) but God told his friends he (Job) was right.

Compared to his supposed friends, the Book and/or God, lets us know that Job had done very well, but He also made it clear the distance between Job and God was still quite great. There is in us always room for improvement.

On a related note, trying to ffindsin, error or fault in Job's character or actions is exactly what his "friends" were doing. We shouldn't be following their lead.

Of course not, but Job's time is done. We are not and cannot stand in final judgment on him. Now for us remains the lesson of both of his friends and of Job for those of us who read that Book today. That is, I believe, why the Book of Job is included in the written scriptures. The apostle Paul;s word do apply if we are viewing as more than a lesson and want to prove final judgment on the man is ours to make:

"For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise." II Cor 10:12

If you want to say this was God bri ging Job closer to him I won't object... Obviously anytime God deals with you this personally that is going to happen. However, I see no fault in Job nor his actions or speech. Again, God lectured him but God also said he answered correctly.

No sin, or at least no intentional sin, but God did see fit to set Job straight on a few things. I saw a bit a pride in Job. Was it sin? It may not have been but if it was not it could easily have become sin... When an unintentional error or sin is revealed to a person, does not corrective action need to be taken in order to please God?

Job's reaction to God's explanation of the man's errors were as I mentioned similar to the reaction of King David. As David was a man after God's own heart and/or the apple of His eye, considering what Job went through and how he did do, perhaps similar favorable designations could be used for Job.

Another sidenote to diffuse the inevidable question (from anyone): no, I am not saying Job was sinless nor am I saying he was perfect. I am merely pointing out God said he was upright and a perfect man.

I agree that Job was perfect in the beginning of the Book as stated and while we have no such closing statement, the end of the matter was if anything improved because Job did pass the tests.

As always Amadeus, I appreciate the conversation.

Give God the glory, my friend! God uses us to work on each other.

 

[Helen]

I believe that Job was perfect in the eyes of God according to what he had and what he was doing with what he had. When the trials come upon him, he does well, but at least as we see it with our eyes of flesh, not so well as he might.

This is like comparing King David with King Saul. Looking at the sins listed in scripture for David versus Saul we might think David, if anything did worse than Saul. This not so because of the way Saul handled things when confronted with sin versus the way David handled things. Saul was quick to justify himself or blame others, while David was ready to pay the price... even to his own death.

Similarly while Job complained he simply wished he had never been born. He did not blame others... nor in, his case, God. Rather when he answered his wife who advised him to curse God:

"But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips." Job 2:10

At that Job had a lot more on his plate than he did in first verse where he is described as a perfect man eschewing evil. The hedge had been removed and the heat was turned up...


Compared to his supposed friends, the Book and/or God, lets us know that Job had done very well, but He also made it clear the distance between Job and God was still quite great. There is in us always room for improvement.


Of course not, but Job's time is done. We are not and cannot stand in final judgment on him. Now for us remains the lesson of both of his friends and of Job for those of us who read that Book today. That is, I believe, why the Book of Job is included in the written scriptures. The apostle Paul;s word do apply if we are viewing as more than a lesson and want to prove final judgment on the man is ours to make:

"For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise." II Cor 10:12


No sin, or at least no intentional sin, but God did see fit to set Job straight on a few things. I saw a bit a pride in Job. Was it sin? It may not have been but if it was not it could easily have become sin... When an unintentional error or sin is revealed to a person, does not corrective action need to be taken in order to please God?

Job's reaction to God's explanation of the man's errors were as I mentioned similar to the reaction of King David. As David was a man after God's own heart and/or the apple of His eye, considering what Job went through and how he did do, perhaps similar favorable designations could be used for Job.



I agree that Job was perfect in the beginning of the Book as stated and while we have no such closing statement, the end of the matter was if anything improved because Job did pass the tests.


Give God the glory, my friend! God uses us to work on each other.

Agree with what you wrote...I am on the same page here. Good post.

 

[Helen]

Please consider these verses:

Job 1:8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 1:22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

42:7 And it was so, that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath

Your statement that anything that we do that isn't exactly as God would have us do hinders us is true. However it seems by these verses that wasn't an issue in this case. When Job said "but I will maintain my ways..." are shown here. God said he was upright, perfect (as a man) eshewed evil, feared the Lord and answered correctly. Even in that verse the punctuation (note the colon) suggests that "maintaining his own ways" was trusting God.

God did give Job an epic lecture about trying to be as smart as God (generally speaking) but God told his friends he (Job) was right.

On a related note, trying to ffindsin, error or fault in Job's character or actions is exactly what his "friends" were doing. We shouldn't be following their lead.

If you want to say this was God bri ging Job closer to him I won't object... Obviously anytime God deals with you this personally that is going to happen. However, I see no fault in Job nor his actions or speech. Again, God lectured him but God also said he answered correctly.

Another sidenote to diffuse the inevidable question (from anyone): no, I am not saying Job was sinless nor am I saying he was perfect. I am merely pointing out God said he was upright and a perfect man.

As always Amadeus, I appreciate the conversation.

I think you caused me to eat my own words here.
Well said....I liked that.

Whom the Father loves He chastens ...God greatly loved Job...therefore worked on Job for God's own glory!! Job was a gem that God held up to Satan.." Hast thou considered MY servant..."
If we are willing, God moves us from servant-ship to sonship...a work in progress...

 

[Dcopymope]

(Job 1:8) "And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?"

The answer to scriptures like this may be really simple. When God says Job was "perfect", was he "perfect" in his ways, or was he "perfect" like God is perfect?