Shabbat shalom, veteran.
Surely you don't think that's real point. I agree the sky around the earth is also called 'heaven' in Scripture, but it's not to be confused with God's Heavenly Abode, which is not the same thing. Trying to apply the literal sky atmosphere around the earth as the Heaven where God and the angels dwell is carnal thinking.
I'm getting a little tired of this attitude of yours. Why do you have to make this about "carnal thinking?" (You need to look up just what "carnal thinking" is. You've got this word "carnal" that you hang so much upon, but you have forgotten what the word meant in context! Romans 7:14; 8:7; 15:27; 1 Corinthians 3:1-4; 9:11; 2 Corinthians 10:4; Hebrews 7:16; and 9:10 are the only places in the KJV that use that word. Look them up and re-learn your definition of "carnal.") It has nothing to do with "carnal thinking"; it has EVERYTHING to do with making it "CONCRETE THINKING!" There is
NO "God's Heavenly Abode," other than the New Jerusalem which is being made for us to share with Him! Why? Simply because God is omnipresent! He doesn't have an "Abode" because no "Abode" could contain Him!
The Temple that Shlomo haMelekh made with the materials that David haMelekh collected (and more) was a WONDROUS place! It was full of gold and silver and precious gems and fine tapestries, but all of that was nothing ... until God graced it with His Sh'kinah (His Presence)! THAT'S what made the Temple special! Please take the time to read Shlomo's words carefully:
1 Kings 8:22-54
22 And Solomon stood before the altar of the Lord in the presence of all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven:
23 And he said, "Lord God of Israel, there is no God like thee, in heaven above, or on earth beneath, who keepest covenant and mercy with thy servants that walk before thee with all their heart:
24 Who hast kept with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him: thou spakest also with thy mouth, and hast fulfilled it with thine hand, as it is this day.
25 Therefore now, Lord God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit on the throne of Israel; so that thy children take heed to their way, that they walk before me as thou hast walked before me.
26 And now, O God of Israel, let thy word, I pray thee, be verified, which thou spakest unto thy servant David my father.
27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?
28 Yet have thou respect unto the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O Lord my God, to hearken unto the cry and to the prayer, which thy servant prayeth before thee to day:
29 That thine eyes may be open toward this house night and day, even toward the place of which thou hast said, My name shall be there: that thou mayest hearken unto the prayer which thy servant shall make toward this place.
30 And hearken thou to the supplication of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, when they shall pray toward this place: and hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place: and when thou hearest, forgive.
31 If any man trespass against his neighbour, and an oath be laid upon him to cause him to swear, and the oath come before thine altar in this house:
32 Then hear thou in heaven, and do, and judge thy servants, condemning the wicked, to bring his way upon his head; and justifying the righteous, to give him according to his righteousness.
33 When thy people Israel be smitten down before the enemy, because they have sinned against thee, and shall turn again to thee, and confess thy name, and pray, and make supplication unto thee in this house:
34 Then hear thou in heaven, and forgive the sin of thy people Israel, and bring them again unto the land which thou gavest unto their fathers.
35 When heaven is shut up, and there is no rain, because they have sinned against thee; if they pray toward this place, and confess thy name, and turn from their sin, when thou afflictest them:
36 Then hear thou in heaven, and forgive the sin of thy servants, and of thy people Israel, that thou teach them the good way wherein they should walk, and give rain upon thy land, which thou hast given to thy people for an inheritance.
37 If there be in the land famine, if there be pestilence, blasting, mildew, locust, or if there be caterpiller; if their enemy besiege them in the land of their cities; whatsoever plague, whatsoever sickness there be;
38 What prayer and supplication soever be made by any man, or by all thy people Israel, which shall know every man the plague of his own heart, and spread forth his hands toward this house:
39 Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men
40 That they may fear thee all the days that they live in the land which thou gavest unto our fathers.
41 Moreover concerning a stranger, that is not of thy people Israel, but cometh out of a far country for thy name's sake;
42 (For they shall hear of thy great name, and of thy strong hand, and of thy stretched out arm when he shall come and pray toward this house;
43 Hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to thee for: that all people of the earth may know thy name, to fear thee, as do thy people Israel; and that they may know that this house, which I have builded, is called by thy name.
44 If thy people go out to battle against their enemy, whithersoever thou shalt send them, and shall pray unto the Lord toward the city which thou hast chosen, and toward the house that I have built for thy name:
45 Then hear thou in heaven their prayer and their supplication, and maintain their cause.
46 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;
47 Yet if they shall bethink themselves in the land whither they were carried captives, and repent, and make supplication unto thee in the land of them that carried them captives, saying, We have sinned, and have done perversely, we have committed wickedness;
48 And so return unto thee with all their heart, and with all their soul, in the land of their enemies, which led them away captive, and pray unto thee toward their land, which thou gavest unto their fathers, the city which thou hast chosen, and the house which I have built for thy name:
49 Then hear thou their prayer and their supplication in heaven thy dwelling place, and maintain their cause,
50 And forgive thy people that have sinned against thee and all their transgressions wherein they have transgressed against thee, and give them compassion before them who carried them captive, that they may have compassion on them:
51 For they be thy people, and thine inheritance, which thou broughtest forth out of Egypt, from the midst of the furnace of iron:
52 That thine eyes may be open unto the supplication of thy servant, and unto the supplication of thy people Israel, to hearken unto them in all that they call for unto thee.
53 For thou didst separate them from among all the people of the earth, to be thine inheritance, as thou spakest by the hand of Moses thy servant, when thou broughtest our fathers out of Egypt, O Lord God."
54 And it was so, that when Solomon had made an end of praying all this prayer and supplication unto the Lord, he arose from before the altar of the Lord, from kneeling on his knees with his hands spread up to heaven.
KJV
Shlomo is NOT saying that God dwells only in heaven, as though God has a dwelling place! He is saying that God dwells in MUCH MORE than JUST heaven (the skies; the atmosphere) or even the heaven of heavens (outer space)! However it is into the "heaven," into the "skies," that one prays! The vibrations of the sounds that come out of a person's mouth goes into the air, but it is GOD who may (if He chooses to do so) pay attention to those prayers and respond! All the Temple provided was a FOCAL POINT for human beings to focus upon when uttering their prayers. This is why the Jews, including Messianic Jews, will take the time to turn toward the east, toward Jerusalem where the Temple once stood, and speak their prayers out loud. This is why the Western Wall (the "Wailing Wall"), a remnant of the retention wall for the raised terrace upon which the Temple once stood, is so important to the Jews. It's as close as they may get to the FOCAL POINT!
Well, that was Shlomo's intention for the Temple, but since it is GOD who makes it a reality, we need to see God's answer to His prayer:
1 Kings 9:1-9
9 And it came to pass, when Solomon had finished the building of the house of the Lord, and the king's house, and all Solomon's desire which he was pleased to do,
2 That the Lord appeared to Solomon the second time, as he had appeared unto him at Gibeon.
3 And the Lord said unto him, "I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.
4 And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments:
5 Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.
6 But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them:
7 Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:
8 And at this house, which is high, every one that passeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss; and they shall say, 'Why hath the Lord done thus unto this land, and to this house?'
9 And they shall answer, 'Because they forsook the Lord their God, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have taken hold upon other gods, and have worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath the Lord brought upon them all this evil.'"
KJV
All that kind of false thinking is designed to do is to lead to the lie that there is no such place as God's Heavenly Paradise which is a different dwelling than the mere sky atmosphere around the earth. And if that false idea can be believed, then it would also lead to the lie that an abode of separation called "hell" doesn't really exist either."
First, you really need to grasp the difference between a person being "wrong" and a person being "false." "Being wrong" means that a person is simply in error, and communicates no sense of intent. "Being false" implies that a person is intending to deceive, that a person is intentionally lying! By using the word "false" instead of "wrong," you are ACCUSING your debating opponent of INTENTIONAL, WILLFUL SIN! If that's what you mean to say, then YOU will often be found the one accusing another.
Second, learn where "Paradise" is. "Paradise" is a transliterated word from the Greek into the English. The Greek word is "
paradeisos." However, "
paradeisos" also was borrowed from the Hebrew word "
pardec," pronounced "par-DACE," spelled pei-patach-reish-shva-dalet-tsere-samech. It simply means "a park." Specifically, it is a "park" of trees or an "orchard." The word "paradeisos" is only found in three passages: Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4; and Revelation 2:7. The word "pardec" is found in but three more: Nehemiah 2:8 (the king's "forest"); Ecclesiastes 2:5 ("orchards"); and Song of Songs 4:13 (an "orchard" of pomegranates).
Yeshua` said to the thief on the cross, "
To day shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43), and Paul said,
2 Cor. 12:1-4
1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up (Greek: harpagenta) to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
4 How that he was caught up (Greek: heerpagee) into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
KJV
In both of the highlighted phrases, the words translated "caught up" neither contains the concept of "up" nor is there a word meaning "up" in the passage! They both come from the root word, "
harpazoo," meaning "to seize; to snatch away" and have no implication for the direction of "up."
No, it doesn't mean we can arbitrarily assign it to where we want, because God's Word is specific enough about where it is. It's not of this present earthly dimension at all. The atmospheric sky around the earth is of this earthly dimension, so are the planets, the stars, the sun, the galaxies, universe, etc.
(LOL! What could be "etc" or "et cetera" or "and so forth" after the "UNIVERSE?")
Frankly, that is a THEORY! What you are spouting off is someone's theology based on his (or her) INTERPRETATION of God's Word! God's Word is not THAT specific!
Some of the ancient Greeks along with ancient Egyptians believed in a god associated with the sun, and thus the origin of sun worship. Some of the ancient pagans also did the same thing with worship of the 'sky', worshipping the things of God's creation instead of The Creator Himself."
And that word 'heavens' is plural in the Hebrew of Gen.1:1 isn't it? So if the sky is one, then where's the other one? On a planet like Venus or something? in another galaxy? is God an alien from outerspace like Eric von Daniken tried to espouse???
Oh, c'mon. Let's not get silly here. No one is suggesting any such thing. Why is the word "
shaamayim" in the plural? I can't really say. That's a Hebrew thing. It could be because it merits the "royal plural." However, the word "
mayim," translated "water," "waters," "watering," "watercourse," "washing," "waterflood," "watersprings," or "sea" is in the plural, too. Why is that, when the word may often refer to a single body of water?
On earth, in His Garden of Eden, which the Greek Septuagint OT renders as paradise. Jesus even said the malefactor crucified with Him would be with Him in Paradise. Gen.2 reveals God's River flowing out of His Eden on earth to feed four literal rivers on earth. God's Paradise was once here on earth before Adams' fall is what that reveals. The heavenly sky of today He created is not the original.
Obviously then, His Paradise is not here on earth anymore which Gen.3:22-24 revealed it being moved, nor is it about the sky atmosphere around the earth. It's in a different dimension of existence. And that's what His Word reveals because of His allowing His prophets to see it while they were on earth (like Isaiah 6). Poor Isaiah thought he had somehow died when he saw it.
Yes, His paradise WAS here on this earth and it was here all the while during the first earth and its first sky up to the time of the Flood, when both were destroyed by water. It was protected from invasion, however, by the k'ruviym with the flaming sword that "turned every way (or in every direction), to keep the way of the tree of life" (Gen. 3:24). This short passage (22-24), however, does NOT give an indication as to WHEN the paradise was "moved" or destroyed. It's a possibility that it was simply destroyed in the Flood. Rather than transplant the tree of life, God could simply re-create the tree of life in His new paradise. Either way, it is no longer here on this earth.
The paradise, however, does NOT have to be in "different dimension of existence!" THAT'S sci-fi thrown into the mix! Yochanan (John) recorded for us where paradise is:
He said that Yeshua` said to the called-out assembly at Ephesus,
Rev. 2:6
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
KJV
And then, later Yochanan tells us where that is:
Rev. 22:2
2 In the midst of the street of it (the New Jerusalem), and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
KJV
Thus, there are enough clues to tell us that the paradise of God is either WITHIN the New Jerusalem or refers to the New Jerusalem itself. And, Yochanan also told us a few other things about the New Jerusalem:
Rev. 21:1-3; 10-13
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
...
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
KJV
Therefore, the New Jerusalem lands (because it comes down "out of
ouranos" or "out of the sky") upon the New Earth after the Fire mentioned in Revelation 20:9, which corresponds to 2 Peter 3:7-12. If it comes down out of
ouranos, where was it before? Well, according to the author of Hebrews:
Heb. 12:22
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly (Greek: epouranios) Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
KJV
Therefore, it is a city ABOVE the
ouranos, ABOVE the atmosphere, in outer space! THAT'S where the New Jerusalem is! THAT'S where "Paradise" is! Not in a "different dimension"; just out in space!
