Blood vs. Bones

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Retrobyter

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Shalom, everyone!

This is more for fun, than anything else, but there is a fundamental truth at stake in this question:

How do you rectify these seemingly contradictory statements?

Luke 24:36-43
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them,
Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,
Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
KJV


1 Cor 15:45-50
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV
 

ttruscott

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You inherit from your Father. Your flesh cannot beirng you into adoption by the Father, only being reborn into HIS family can do that. What we are like once we are HIS inheritors, whether in a heavenly body or pure spirit, is imaterial.

How's that! ? :)

Peace,
 

7angels

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i see no contradiction. it is just saying that a spirit man will not have an earthly suit(be flesh and blood) and 1 cor shows that earthly desires will not get you into God's kingdom.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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The life of the flesh is the blood. Since Adam sinned, his sinful flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Nor can that of any of his children, except that of the sinless son of man, who through his own blood entered heaven. All those who die through him, live through his blood and inherit the kingdom. God is spirit, yet the son of man in heaven, who is the visible form of God, has flesh and bones.

There is only a seeming contradiction at a very superficial level.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, ttruscott.

You inherit from your Father. Your flesh cannot beirng you into adoption by the Father, only being reborn into HIS family can do that. What we are like once we are HIS inheritors, whether in a heavenly body or pure spirit, is imaterial.

How's that! ? :)

Peace,
You haven't dealt with the fact that Yeshua` was in a PHYSICAL BODY that could be handled, could speak, and could eat and drink! How is that a "heavenly body" or a "pure spirit," either one?

Shalom, 7angels.

i see no contradiction. it is just saying that a spirit man will not have an earthly suit(be flesh and blood) and 1 cor shows that earthly desires will not get you into God's kingdom.

You haven't dealt with Luke at all in your statement. You see no contradiction because you're comparing 1 Cor. 15:50 to itself! What are you going to do with the PHYSICAL body of a resurrected Yeshua` in Luke 24:39?

Shalom, HeRoseFromTheDead.

The life of the flesh is the blood. Since Adam sinned, his sinful flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Nor can that of any of his children, except that of the sinless son of man, who through his own blood entered heaven. All those who die through him, live through his blood and inherit the kingdom. God is spirit, yet the son of man in heaven, who is the visible form of God, has flesh and bones.

There is only a seeming contradiction at a very superficial level.

Okay, so there's no contradiction. Then how would you explain how a spiritual body that can inherit the Kingdom, which apparently is not "flesh and blood," can be handled and can speak and can eat and drink because it consists of "flesh and bones?"
 

mark s

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Hi Retrobyter,

What are the presuppositions?

Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;

Now, your assertion is that a physical body cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and Jesus raised in a physical body, therefore, we have a conflict.

So then, there is the presupposition that there is only one kind of physical body, such a one as cannot inherit.  However, Scripture demonstrates otherwise.

We know Jesus raised in a physical body, from the quoted passage, but we also know His physical body is not like our physical bodies.

Philippians 3:20-21 NKJV
(20)  For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
(21)  who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

So our bodies are different types, while both being physical.

So this leaps into the next point, since there are two kinds of physical bodies, then is it that one can and one can't inherit?

In fact, when we take the Corinthians passage in context, this is exactly what Paul is talking about.

1 Corinthians 15:35-42 NKJV
(35)  But someone will say, "How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?"
(36)  Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
(37)  And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain--perhaps wheat or some other grain.
(38)  But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
(39)  All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
(40)  There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
(41)  There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
(42)  So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.

There are different kinds of bodies, including both celestial and terrestrial.  The first body, that is, pre-resurrection, is "sown in corruption", the second being "raise in incorruption".

So when we come to here:

1 Corinthians 15:50-54 NKJV
(50)  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
(51)  Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
(52)  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(53)  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(54)  So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

This then agrees with:

Philippians 3:21 NKJV
". . . who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body . . ."

So then the direct answer to your question, to my understanding, is that when Paul is saying flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, he is saying it within the context of there being two kinds of physical bodies, and this is to identify the corruptible body.

Love in Christ,
Mark
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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Okay, so there's no contradiction. Then how would you explain how a spiritual body that can inherit the Kingdom, which apparently is not "flesh and blood," can be handled and can speak and can eat and drink because it consists of "flesh and bones?"

Jesus was saying that he's not a spirit that has no visible form, that can't be touched and felt - he has a spiritual body that can be seen, touched and felt. The fact that there is a natural body, and a spiritual body doesn't mean that they don't have qualities in common, or that a spiritual body is no longer flesh. What a spiritual body definitely isn't, though, is sinful flesh.

btw, this is an interesting an worthwhile discussion you have brought up.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, mark s.

Hi Retrobyter,

What are the presuppositions?

Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;

Now, your assertion is that a physical body cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and Jesus raised in a physical body, therefore, we have a conflict.

So then, there is the presupposition that there is only one kind of physical body, such a one as cannot inherit. However, Scripture demonstrates otherwise.

We know Jesus raised in a physical body, from the quoted passage, but we also know His physical body is not like our physical bodies.

Philippians 3:20-21 NKJV
(20) For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
(21) who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

So our bodies are different types, while both being physical.

So this leaps into the next point, since there are two kinds of physical bodies, then is it that one can and one can't inherit?

In fact, when we take the Corinthians passage in context, this is exactly what Paul is talking about.

1 Corinthians 15:35-42 NKJV
(35) But someone will say, "How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?"
(36) Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
(37) And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain--perhaps wheat or some other grain.
(38) But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
(39) All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
(40) There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
(41) There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
(42) So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.

There are different kinds of bodies, including both celestial and terrestrial. The first body, that is, pre-resurrection, is "sown in corruption", the second being "raise in incorruption".

So when we come to here:

1 Corinthians 15:50-54 NKJV
(50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(54) So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

This then agrees with:

Philippians 3:21 NKJV
". . . who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body . . ."

So then the direct answer to your question, to my understanding, is that when Paul is saying flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, he is saying it within the context of there being two kinds of physical bodies, and this is to identify the corruptible body.

Love in Christ,
Mark

PRECISELY! Thank you for your excellent deductions! There are two kinds of physical bodies, a "sooma psuchikon" and a "sooma pneumatikon." (Again, I use "oo" for an omega and "o" for an "omicron," which only gets tricky when the two are side by side. I also use "ee" for an eta and "e" for an epsilon.) This is found in 1 Cor. 15:44. The only reason why I see Christians may have problems with this is in their definition of "pneumatikon" that is often translated "spiritual," and how it compares with the definition of "psuchikon" that is translated "natural." These words are used in most translations of the Scriptures, but some offer "physical" instead of "natural," and some offer "supernatural" instead of "spiritual."

It is my belief that the context of this verse supports a belief in two types of physical bodies, a body subject to decay and death and a body that is impervious to decay or death! Thus, the translations that use "natural/physical" and "spiritual" mislead people because of their acceptance of an implied definition of "spiritual" being "nonphysical" or even "immaterial." They have this notion that the "spiritual" realm is in another dimension of reality and is not a part of the space-mass-time continuum. They also imply that "Heaven" actually IS this other dimension or is IN this other dimension of reality. I don't believe this is the case at all.

I believe that "Heaven" is another misunderstanding of Greek terms that were mistranslated in many cases. The Greek word "ouranos" is the foundation word to which are added prefixes that are prepositional in nature. These prefixes give us other terms that are translated "heaven," "heavenly" or phrases such as "in the midst of heaven." The other Greek words these additions form are "epouranios" and "mesouraneema." With adjectival endings and endings that form other parts of speech, the matter is further complicated: "ouranios" and "ouranothen." When the same version translates both "epouranios" and "ouranios" as "heavenly," we have a problem because they mean two different things.

Another complication is found in the English definition of "heaven" and how that has changed even within the last 100 years! I can remember my grandparents talking about "birds flying through the heavens" and never giving it a second thought. They talked about the "clouds of heaven" piling up for a rain storm, knowing perfectly what each other meant. They did NOT understand "heaven" as strictly "God's abode." They understood that the skies were the "heavens above." That has changed today.

I rather doubt that he was the first to say it, but Rev. C. I. Scofield in his Scofield Reference Edition of the KJV Bible at least popularized the theory that the "third heaven was God's abode." Within the center margin on page 1238 as a footnote to 2 Cor. 12:2, he states flatly without a Bible reference that the first heaven was "of clouds," the second heaven was "of stars," and the third heaven was "God's abode." I don't believe that is right at all. I believe rather that PETER gives a better explanation for Paul's statement about a "third heaven":

2 Peter 3:3-13
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water (the first heaven and earth):
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now (the second heaven and earth), by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness (the third heaven and earth).
KJV


Thus, they are enumerated through time, not through space. It's not 1-2-3 based on how far you go from planet earth, but 1-2-3 based on before the Flood, after the Flood but before the Fire, and after the Fire. This makes the third heaven identical to the New Heaven (and the New Earth) that John saw in Revelation 21:1! And, isn't that what usually happens to a man who becomes a prophet, as Paul is describing? He is transported by visions THROUGH TIME and sees the future! Thus, most prophecies include predictions of the future!

Therefore, I find no problems in saying that "heaven," as the Greek word "ouranos," is the atmosphere around our planet earth. The place where the sun, moon, and stars are, that we call "outer space" or just "space" today, is referenced by "heavenly" when it comes from the Greek word "epouranios" - "above the atmosphere." "Mesouraneema," found in Revelation 19:17, is where the birds fly - "in the middle of the atmosphere," certainly not above it! We are told further in Hebrews that the New Jerusalem is being constructed "epouranios" - "above the atmosphere," and I believe that this is Yeshua`s "Father's house" to which He said He was going to prepare us a place in John 14:1-3.

So, getting back to "sooma psuchikon" and "sooma pneumatikon," the words "psuchikon" and "pneumatikon" are the adjective forms of "psuchee" and "pneuma," respectively. These words are usually translated as "soul" and "spirit." However, the primary definition of "pneuma" is "a wind or a current of air or a blast of air." A secondary definition would be "a forceful breath or a blowing." Only by analogy does it get the definition of "a spirit or the immaterial part of a being." Also, the primary definition of "psuchee" is "a being that breathes or an animated being."

Thus, a "sooma psuchikon" is a "breathing body" while a "sooma pneumatikon" is a "blasting body," a SUPER body! Now, keeping that in mind, go back and re-read 1 Cor. 15:42-49 and following...

1 Cor. 15:42-49
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body (sooma psuchikon); it is raised a spiritual body (sooma pneumatikon). There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul (a living psuchee); the last Adam was made a quickening spirit (a life-giving pneuma).
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly (epouranios), such are they also that are heavenly (epouranios).
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly (epouranios).
KJV


That's why I brought this up.

Shalom, HeRoseFromTheDead.

Jesus was saying that he's not a spirit that has no visible form, that can't be touched and felt - he has a spiritual body that can be seen, touched and felt. The fact that there is a natural body, and a spiritual body doesn't mean that they don't have qualities in common, or that a spiritual body is no longer flesh. What a spiritual body definitely isn't, though, is sinful flesh.

btw, this is an interesting an worthwhile discussion you have brought up.
Right you are, too!

Thanks, I was hoping it would be worthwhile to someone.

Shalom, all.

As a post script, I should also mention that the Hebrew words are basically the same: The Hebrew word translated "soul" is "nefesh," often written "nephesh," and the Hebrew word for "spirit" is "ruach." What I find interesting is that both words are used for both human beings and animals. Animals have "souls" and "spirits" just like human beings do. Occasionally, you will hear a teacher say that an animal doesn't have a "soul." That's wrong. What distinguishes us from animals is not the presence of the "soul" or even the "spirit"; it's that Adam (and His wife Chavah or "Eve" through him) was made in the IMAGE OF GOD! THAT'S what distinguishes human beings from animals.

Gen. 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV


God formed the body (Hebrew: geviyah) and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (Hebrew: nishmat chayiym) and man became a living soul (Hebrew: l'nefesh chayaah).

Gen. 6:17
17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life (Hebrew: ruach chayiym), from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
KJV

Thus, a human being IS a "soul" - a "nefesh" - a "breather." He is a combination of the "body" - a "geviyah" - and a "spirit" - a "ruach" - a "breath." Why do we have to make it any harder than that?
 

veteran

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It's truly simple. Christ's flesh body was 'transfigured', as it was not found in the tomb.

But for all others that die, our flesh bodies are not transfigured like His was.

What does that difference suggest? It suggests an eternal rememberance of Christ's death on the cross, as His flesh body was transfigured to still show the marks of His crucifixion.
 

mark s

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I would add to say that the nephesh within the animals was simply part of their creation, while the nephesh of Adam came after his creation, being breathed into him by God Himself.

Interesting idea of the 3rd heaven, makes some interesting sense!

I find many Christians have an idea of spending eternity in some sort of other-worldy place called heaven not realizing that our final redemption is to bring us back to God's original plan for man, the family of man in innocent righteousness on the earth.

While there is an extradimensionality (can that be a word?) about our normal understanding of "heaven" (we are currently seated there together), in the resurrection/eternal state, this will simply add to our earthly existance. That's how I see things, anyway.

I think discussing these sorts of things are terrific, since we can only benefit from a more concrete understanding of who and what God has made us to be,

If only we could understand what spiritual blessings He has graced us with now! The church would truly be revolutionized!

One other thing about the heavens, people need to remember that the place where the birds fly, and the place where the stars are, are the same "heavens":

Genesis 1:6-8 NKJV
(6) Then God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters."
(7) Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so.
(8) And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.

. . . and . . .

Genesis 1:14-19 NKJV
(14) Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;
(15) and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so.
(16) Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also.
(17) God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth,
(18) and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.
(19) So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

. . . and . . .

Genesis 1:20 NKJV
"Then God said, "Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens."

So, more specifically, the place where the birds fly is the side of the heavens which is towards us, as described in this passage. In Revelation 14 and 19, the middle heaven is identified the same way, where the birds fly (ch. 19) and where the angels will fly (ch. 14).

And then, of course, outside of these "heavens", that is, at the edge of our universe, apparently, is water.

Love in Christ,
Mark
 

veteran

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One other thing about the heavens, people need to remember that the place where the birds fly, and the place where the stars are, are the same "heavens":

Genesis 1:6-8 NKJV
(6) Then God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters."
(7) Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so.
(8) And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.

. . . and . . .

Genesis 1:14-19 NKJV
(14) Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;
(15) and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so.
(16) Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also.
(17) God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth,
(18) and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.
(19) So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

. . . and . . .

Genesis 1:20 NKJV
"Then God said, "Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens."

So, more specifically, the place where the birds fly is the side of the heavens which is towards us, as described in this passage. In Revelation 14 and 19, the middle heaven is identified the same way, where the birds fly (ch. 19) and where the angels will fly (ch. 14).

And then, of course, outside of these "heavens", that is, at the edge of our universe, apparently, is water.

Love in Christ,
Mark



The earth, heavens (sky), sun, moon, the planets, solar systems, the universe, are all things seen of the material dimension. But there is another dimension of existence independent of that, and it is called Heaven where God's Abode is and where His angels are.

Heb 11:3
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
(KJV)

Things seen of the material dimension were not made of those things. In other words, material matter did not create itself. Nor can anyone but God create or destroy material matter.


Rom 1:20
20 For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
(KJV)

Because material matter did not create itself, that reveals something independent from the material dimension created matter. That something is God The Creator, and "the invisible things of Him". The Paradise Paul also referred to in 2 Cor.12 is of the invisible things of God, and not of material matter.

Thus there's TWO dimensions of existence: this earthly, and then the Heavenly (God's Abode).
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, veteran.

It's truly simple. Christ's flesh body was 'transfigured', as it was not found in the tomb.

But for all others that die, our flesh bodies are not transfigured like His was.

... YET, you mean, but He was not just transfigured; He was TRANSFORMED! It's simpler than that. Yeshua`s body was RESURRECTED AND TRANSFORMED as our bodies one day will be at our resurrection (1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thes. 4:13-17). Technically, when Yeshua` was on the mountain with His three disciples, He was "transfigured," i.e., His appearance was changed. He went from a normal, dark, curly-haired Jew to a glowing appearance such that His face rivaled the sun, His eyes glowed, His apparel became bleached whiter than white, and his skin glowed, similar to the glow of Mosheh's face after He was with God on Mount Sinai, and the three disciples saw His glory when He comes again in His Kingdom ahead of time.

What does that difference suggest? It suggests an eternal rememberance of Christ's death on the cross, as His flesh body was transfigured to still show the marks of His crucifixion.

I believe this is true about His wounds; however, when He comes "we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is!" I can show you many verses that suggest that we will glow like our Master does! Not to the same intensity nor to the same frequency, but we will glow!
 

veteran

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Shalom, veteran.



... YET, you mean, but He was not just transfigured; He was TRANSFORMED! It's simpler than that. Yeshua`s body was RESURRECTED AND TRANSFORMED as our bodies one day will be at our resurrection (1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thes. 4:13-17). Technically, when Yeshua` was on the mountain with His three disciples, He was "transfigured," i.e., His appearance was changed. He went from a normal, dark, curly-haired Jew to a glowing appearance such that His face rivaled the sun, His eyes glowed, His apparel became bleached whiter than white, and his skin glowed, similar to the glow of Mosheh's face after He was with God on Mount Sinai, and the three disciples saw His glory when He comes again in His Kingdom ahead of time.

Know of anyone that died and their body came up missing like our Lord Jesus' body? That's different, isn't it?

(Jesus being "a normal, dark, curly-haired Jew", I find that kind of funny).


I believe this is true about His wounds; however, when He comes "we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is!" I can show you many verses that suggest that we will glow like our Master does! Not to the same intensity nor to the same frequency, but we will glow!

We will have a resurrected type body 'similar' to His, but not exactly like His. Our resurrected bodies won't bear the marks of our sufferings in the flesh.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Mark S.

I would add to say that the nephesh within the animals was simply part of their creation, while the nephesh of Adam came after his creation, being breathed into him by God Himself.

Interesting idea of the 3rd heaven, makes some interesting sense!

I find many Christians have an idea of spending eternity in some sort of other-worldy place called heaven not realizing that our final redemption is to bring us back to God's original plan for man, the family of man in innocent righteousness on the earth.

While there is an extradimensionality (can that be a word?) about our normal understanding of "heaven" (we are currently seated there together), in the resurrection/eternal state, this will simply add to our earthly existance. That's how I see things, anyway.

I think discussing these sorts of things are terrific, since we can only benefit from a more concrete understanding of who and what God has made us to be,

If only we could understand what spiritual blessings He has graced us with now! The church would truly be revolutionized!

One other thing about the heavens, people need to remember that the place where the birds fly, and the place where the stars are, are the same "heavens":

Genesis 1:6-8 NKJV
(6) Then God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters."
(7) Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so.
(8) And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.

. . . and . . .

Genesis 1:14-19 NKJV
(14) Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;
(15) and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so.
(16) Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also.
(17) God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth,
(18) and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.
(19) So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

. . . and . . .

Genesis 1:20 NKJV
"Then God said, "Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens."

So, more specifically, the place where the birds fly is the side of the heavens which is towards us, as described in this passage. In Revelation 14 and 19, the middle heaven is identified the same way, where the birds fly (ch. 19) and where the angels will fly (ch. 14).

And then, of course, outside of these "heavens", that is, at the edge of our universe, apparently, is water.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Actually, there USED to be water outside of the heavens, the earth's atmosphere. That's what fell to earth for forty days and forty nights during Noach's Flood! There didn't used to be rain in the first heaven and the first earth before the Flood. However, this water was not at the "edge of the universe" but on the high end of the atmosphere, the gases of our sky, as a water vapor canopy.

Gen. 2:4-6
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
KJV


They didn't know about rain before it began raining those 40 days and nights! That's why Noach's warnings were so unbelievable to the people; they had never seen water fall out of the sky! It was an oddity that they would not live long enough to explore.

Day 4 of Creation was not about the creation of the sun, moon, and stars only. It was more about the creation of the LIGHTS! The actual electromagnetic radiation, the photons from the sun, the moon, and the stars, was created that day en route to earth WITHIN the atmosphere of our planet! However, to be sure we understand that God did not ONLY create lights, the phrase "He made the stars also" was added. "Vaya`as Elohiym ... v'eet hakowkhaaviym." Notice that the passage does NOT say He created the "sun" and the "moon" but "two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night!" "Hashaamaayim" (translated "the heaven," or more appropriately, "the heavens") is still talking about the earth's atmosphere.

Shalom, veteran.

Know of anyone that died and their body came up missing like our Lord Jesus' body? That's different, isn't it?

Sure it is, but then we don't know of anyone whose body has been resurrected, yet, either, do we?

(Jesus being "a normal, dark, curly-haired Jew", I find that kind of funny).

Glad I could tickle your funnybone. Yeshua` probably WAS like the rest of the Jewish population and the Arabic populations of that area during that time period, though. We are told that there was nothing that made Him stand out in His appearance:

Isa. 53:2
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
NASU

We will have a resurrected type body 'similar' to His, but not exactly like His. Our resurrected bodies won't bear the marks of our sufferings in the flesh.

Couldn't agree with you more, here. Thanks!
 

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Shalom, Mark S.



Actually, there USED to be water outside of the heavens, the earth's atmosphere. That's what fell to earth for forty days and forty nights during Noach's Flood! There didn't used to be rain in the first heaven and the first earth before the Flood. However, this water was not at the "edge of the universe" but on the high end of the atmosphere, the gases of our sky, as a water vapor canopy.

Gen. 2:4-6
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
KJV


They didn't know about rain before it began raining those 40 days and nights! That's why Noach's warnings were so unbelievable to the people; they had never seen water fall out of the sky! It was an oddity that they would not live long enough to explore.

Day 4 of Creation was not about the creation of the sun, moon, and stars only. It was more about the creation of the LIGHTS! The actual electromagnetic radiation, the photons from the sun, the moon, and the stars, was created that day en route to earth WITHIN the atmosphere of our planet! However, to be sure we understand that God did not ONLY create lights, the phrase "He made the stars also" was added. "Vaya`as Elohiym ... v'eet hakowkhaaviym." Notice that the passage does NOT say He created the "sun" and the "moon" but "two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night!" "Hashaamaayim" (translated "the heaven," or more appropriately, "the heavens") is still talking about the earth's atmosphere.

Hi Retrobyter,

That's interesting! You are dividing the creation of the light itself from the source of that light.

So when it says, "God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness," you are thinking that this means the light only, not the celestial bodies that emmanate the light, is that correct?

So then you are restricting the meaning of "the heavens" to the actual atmosphere only.

If we took away the sun itself, and the moon itself, their light would remain? If it is the light itself that that is set in the heavens to rule over the day and over the night, this is a light without a separate source, not from a star. But then it is quickly replaced with the light that comes from the newly created star, though not what was just described as being created, that was just the light. That seems like a very awkward interpretation to me. When you say "photons from the sun" and so forth, they wouldn't have actually been from the sun, and if that's how it was all happening, you don't even need the sun, just the light streaming through.

As far as no rain until the flood, yes, I agree with you. But the way I read the creation, it really seems to me that God created not just the light in our atmosphere (there was already light and darkness), but that He created the celestial bodies, and put them in the heavens.

So then the earth is the terrestrial, the heavens are the celestial, and all of this was God's creation, the heavens and the earth, created in 6 days.

Love in Christ,
Mark
 

veteran

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Hi Retrobyter,

That's interesting! You are dividing the creation of the light itself from the source of that light.

So when it says, "God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness," you are thinking that this means the light only, not the celestial bodies that emmanate the light, is that correct?

So then you are restricting the meaning of "the heavens" to the actual atmosphere only.

If we took away the sun itself, and the moon itself, their light would remain? If it is the light itself that that is set in the heavens to rule over the day and over the night, this is a light without a separate source, not from a star. But then it is quickly replaced with the light that comes from the newly created star, though not what was just described as being created, that was just the light. That seems like a very awkward interpretation to me. When you say "photons from the sun" and so forth, they wouldn't have actually been from the sun, and if that's how it was all happening, you don't even need the sun, just the light streaming through.

As far as no rain until the flood, yes, I agree with you. But the way I read the creation, it really seems to me that God created not just the light in our atmosphere (there was already light and darkness), but that He created the celestial bodies, and put them in the heavens.

So then the earth is the terrestrial, the heavens are the celestial, and all of this was God's creation, the heavens and the earth, created in 6 days.

Love in Christ,
Mark


And then that begs the question, where is God Himself right now? where is Christ Jesus right now? where are His angels right now? and where is Satan and his angels right now? A carnal terrestrial understanding just can't quite reach answers to that, now can it?
 

mark s

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Hi veteran,

Why does this have to be a "carnal" understanding, if we call the space around the earth that comprises what many know as the "space/time continuum" "the heavens"?

Does that mean there cannot be "something/where else", which describes where God dwells?

I'm simply using the Biblical terminology.

God created the heavens and the earth.

Where was God before He created the heavens?

As far as the angels, fallen and holy, why would that not exist within this "heavens and earth" that God created? Even the secular scientists believe there are dimensions within this continuum that we do not ordinarily directly experience.

Love in Christ,
Mark
 

Retrobyter

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Shabbat shalom, Mark S.

Hi Retrobyter,

That's interesting! You are dividing the creation of the light itself from the source of that light.

So when it says, "God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness," you are thinking that this means the light only, not the celestial bodies that emmanate the light, is that correct?

As far as the Creation of the Heavens (the Skies) and the Earth, yes; however, don't forget that Mosheh (Moses) quickly added, "He made the stars also," per inspiration. God did NOT create the stars and then wait around for millions of years for the light to get here. I believe that He created BOTH the "source" of the light and the light itself already en route to earth's surface. Thus, the light was already IN the atmosphere of our planet the moment He created it. He didn't have to wait 8 1/3 minutes for the light to get here from the sun either.

Remember: He created animals full grown instantaneously. He created the man's body fully mature. Why shouldn't He create processes fully integrated?

I explained earlier about the Greek:
ouranos = "heaven"; the sky; the atmosphere
ouranoi = "heavens"; the skies; the atmospheric gases
ouranios = "heavenly"; of the sky; of the atmosphere
ouranothen = "from heaven"; from the sky; from the atmosphere
mesouraneema = "in the midst of heaven"; in the middle of the sky; in the middle of the atmosphere
epouranios = "heavenly/celestial"; from above the sky; from above the atmosphere

In the Hebrew, we only have two such forms to consider:

hashaamayim = "the heavens"; the skies; the atmospheric expanse of gases
shmeey hashaamayim = "the heaven of heavens"; the sky of the skies; the expanse of the atmospheric expanse of gases

Neh 9:6
6 Thou, even thou, art Lord alone; thou hast made heaven (hashaamayim), the heaven of heavens (shmeey hashaamayim), with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.
KJV



1 Kings 8:27
27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?
KJV



2 Chron 2:6
6 But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?
KJV



2 Chron 6:18
18 But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!
KJV



When one expands the gases of our atmosphere to their most rarified limits, we have outer space. The air thins gradually but consistently as one gets farther and farther away from the surface of the earth until it is empty space.

So then you are restricting the meaning of "the heavens" to the actual atmosphere only.

No, not entirely; however, from our perspective of THIS ground and THIS atmosphere, Mosheh's (Moses') record of the Creation dealt with the Creation of what we can see and sense, not with areas of the universe we cannot experience first-hand.

If we took away the sun itself, and the moon itself, their light would remain?

Sure, it would ... for a while. If the moon disappeared, it would take less than 1.5 seconds for its light to disappear, too. If the sun disappeared, the light would last for 8 1/3 minutes before it disappeared. However, if you took away the actual "Dog Star" (Sirius), our closest neighboring star, it's light would continue for about four and a half years! Some galaxies, such as the Andromeda Galaxy, could disappear and its light would remain for 2.5 million years (theoretically)!

If it is the light itself that that is set in the heavens to rule over the day and over the night, this is a light without a separate source, not from a star. But then it is quickly replaced with the light that comes from the newly created star, though not what was just described as being created, that was just the light. That seems like a very awkward interpretation to me. When you say "photons from the sun" and so forth, they wouldn't have actually been from the sun, and if that's how it was all happening, you don't even need the sun, just the light streaming through.

Right. That is a technicality. I probably should have said "photons AS THOUGH from the sun." However, the sun and its light are a UNIT. The moon and its reflected light from the sun are another UNIT. They go together and when God created each one, He created each UNIT - each SYSTEM! Although He created the "greater light" system initially with photonic energy that did NOT originate from the sun, 8-1/3 minutes later, it was replaced by photonic energy that DID originate from the sun. I strongly believe and am convinced that God created the laws of physics while He was creating this physical universe, and He created it a self-sustaining system so that it would continue long after the creative act. Examples of this can be found in the photosynthesis-respiration-transpiration cycle in plant life and animal life and the post-Flood hydrologic cycle of evaporation, condensation, and precipitation. Therefore, He DID need the sun and the moon to perpetuate the light from them, although initially they were created separately. All a photon is is a wave packet of energy that exhibits characteristics of a particle, as well. The waves are "electromagnetic radiation." This is defined as the alternating, collapsing electric fields and magnetic fields that continually generate each other. A collapsing electric field generates a magnetic field at right angles to the electric field. A collapsing magnetic field generates an electric field at right angles to the magnetic field. This alternation happens quickly enough to travel through space at 186,000 miles per second! The source could be anything that could generate an electric field (or of a magnetic field) of the size and shape needed to begin the cycle. Of course, this would have to happen with the full spectra of light from cosmic rays to radio waves at the intensity and magnitude necessary, but I would think God knows precisely how to generate such fields without our help or advice, don't you? "God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all" (1 John 1:5b)!

Hebrew has words for the "sun" and the "moon." They are "shemesh" and "yaareeach," respectively, but those words are never used in Genesis 1 or 2. Why not?

As far as no rain until the flood, yes, I agree with you. But the way I read the creation, it really seems to me that God created not just the light in our atmosphere (there was already light and darkness), but that He created the celestial bodies, and put them in the heavens.

In English, they are the same word, but in Hebrew they are not: In Genesis 1:3, the word translated "light" is " 'owr," spelled alef-cholam-with-vav-reish, or "ha'owr" in 1:4 with the definite article, "the light." In Genesis 1:14 the word is "m'orot," spelled, mem-shma-alef-cholem-reish-cholem-tav, the feminine plural with the inseparable preposition, the mem- prefix, meaning "from!" Thus, they are those things that are "from-light." Genesis 1:16 specifies "ham'owr hagadol," "the-from-light the-great," and "ham`owr haqaaTon," "the-from-light the-abbreviated." There's a technical difference that doesn't translate well into English.

There's a parallelism in the Creation account of Genesis 1: The three environments for the inhabitants were created on days 1, 2, and 3, and the inhabitants for each environment were created on days 4, 5, and 6. On day 1, God created the environment of light; on day 4, God created the individual "lamps" that focused that light. On day 2, God created the waters and the expanse between the waters, called "hashaamayim" (same word as in verse 1) or "the sky" - the air between the waters; on day 5, God created the sea creatures and the birds of the air. On day 3, God created the dry land and plants; and on day 6, God created the animals and man.

So then the earth is the terrestrial, the heavens are the celestial, and all of this was God's creation, the heavens and the earth, created in 6 days.

Love in Christ,
Mark

No. That's not what "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" means. It is not talking about "the terrestrial and the celestial," nor is it talking about "the material and immaterial" or "the physical and the spiritual." It is simply talking about the creation of OUR environment. It is talking about "the solid-liquid portions of the physical and the gaseous portion of the physical." It's ALL physical. The same word for "heavens" (or "heaven") in verse 1 is the same word used in verse 9 (day 2 when the atmosphere was created), and the same word for "earth" in verse 1 is the same word used in verse 10 (day 3 when the dry land was created).

It is common in Hebrew literature to begin an account with a summary of what is to follow, and Genesis 1:1 follows that tradition.

Hope this helps.

Shabbat shalom, Mark S., again.

P.S. - I should also mention that the word for "stars" is "kokhaviym," which means "round-objects." It is NOT a form of the word for "light" at all. Thus, it is the ONLY word that is directly talking about the BODIES themselves. It's almost like an after-thought the way it's presented, "and he made the stars also," as if to say, "and - oh! - by the way, He made the actual, physical stars, as well!"
 

mark s

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I just can't say I think of 8.3 minutes worth of light to be that which God set in the heavens to rule the day. I'd have to go with the sun itself.

Yes, the light is quickly replaced, but that's my point. It's not this transient couple of minutes of light, its the luminary, the sun.

In thinking of the heavens, and the heaven of heavens, how are both not contained in the declaration, in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth?

Since we can only speculate by what means the light arrived from the celestial orbs, whether created en route, or simply shone down from above, to me, the simplest explanation is "shone down from above".

The parallelism in Genesis is pretty cool! And that brings up another point, that light had already been created, divided from darkness, and day and night established on day 1, therefore, the earth was not actually waiting in darkness for the creation of the sun. So that actually argues for your disincarnate light. But we are also told in Scripture that God "stretched out the heavens".

To me, this indicates that the heavens were smaller, therefore "closer", therefore, light would more quickly reach the earth. Stretch out the heavens, and the luminaries leave a "light trail" behind them.

One thing, I think you may have mis-understood me, when I say "celestial", I'm not referring to "spiritual", "immaterial", or anything like that. I'm referring to that which exists within our space/time continuum, outside of the earth itself.

Love in Christ,
Mark
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, veteran.

And then that begs the question, where is God Himself right now? where is Christ Jesus right now? where are His angels right now? and where is Satan and his angels right now? A carnal terrestrial understanding just can't quite reach answers to that, now can it?

As can be seen in the verses I quoted for Mark, the correct question is "Where is God Himself NOT right now?" God is omnipresent; He is everywhere at once! There is nowhere God is not!

As David said,

Ps 139:7-12
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
KJV


"Where is Christ Jesus right now?" The Messiah Yeshua` said He was going to His Father's house "to prepare a place for [us]" (John 14:1-3). Revelation 21:2-3 says,

Rev 21:2-3
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
KJV


Thus, the New Jerusalem is His Father's "house," a mere "tent" (Greek: skeenee, translated as "tabernacle") to Him, as Avraham lived in a Bedouin tent. This means that Yeshua` was going to the New Jerusalem to prepare places for us!

God's messengers are wherever they are needed and sent. If they are human messengers, such as the prophets, they usually live on the earth, same as any other human being! If you are talking supernatural messengers, I would suggest that they are probably pretty close to the throne within the New Jerusalem as described in Revelation 22:3, but again, they are probably wherever they are needed or sent if not idle.

HaSatan ("The Enemy") and his messengers are grounded here on this earth. Their mission is to thwart God's children by lying to them, tripping them up in any way possible, and making them ineffective through fear and laziness. So far, he's been doing a pretty "good" job.

"A carnal terrestrial understanding just can't quite reach answers to that, now can it?" Talk about an antagonistic, bitter question! You can SMELL the venom in that question! As you can see, I HAVE been given answers to them - simple, Biblical, verifiable answers. "Heaven" is not some ethereal, whimsical place with no substance. "Heaven" is simply a misnomer for the New Jerusalem, the capital city of the New Earth and its New Sky after the Fire. It's TANGIBLE! It's CONCRETE (or actually, it's mostly jasper and gold)! It's a place as real to "hang your hat" as any home you've ever had! And, it's there for your eternal pleasure and purpose.

zj.%2BThe%2Bfoundations%2Bof%2Bthe%2Bwall%2Bof%2Bthe%2Bcity%2Bwere%2Bgarnished%2Bwith%2Ball%2Bmanner%2Bof%2Bprecious%2Bstones....jpg


This is a cut-away view of what I feel the New Jerusalem will look like upon the New Earth. It "LIETH foursquare" (KJV) in that it covers a square area, aligned with north so that there are walls facing in the four compass directions. The river of the water of life flows down the medians of the city street, dividing to each of the city's gates, and flows out the gates to form a new river system that replaces the sea. I want to see and I believe we will see dinosaurs once again. If the original Creation was called by a PERFECT God, "very good," then there's no reason to go seeking something better!

Shabbat shalom, Mark S.

I just can't say I think of 8.3 minutes worth of light to be that which God set in the heavens to rule the day. I'd have to go with the sun itself.

Yes, the light is quickly replaced, but that's my point. It's not this transient couple of minutes of light, its the luminary, the sun.

In thinking of the heavens, and the heaven of heavens, how are both not contained in the declaration, in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth?

Since we can only speculate by what means the light arrived from the celestial orbs, whether created en route, or simply shone down from above, to me, the simplest explanation is "shone down from above".

The parallelism in Genesis is pretty cool! And that brings up another point, that light had already been created, divided from darkness, and day and night established on day 1, therefore, the earth was not actually waiting in darkness for the creation of the sun. So that actually argues for your disincarnate light. But we are also told in Scripture that God "stretched out the heavens".

To me, this indicates that the heavens were smaller, therefore "closer", therefore, light would more quickly reach the earth. Stretch out the heavens, and the luminaries leave a "light trail" behind them.

One thing, I think you may have mis-understood me, when I say "celestial", I'm not referring to "spiritual", "immaterial", or anything like that. I'm referring to that which exists within our space/time continuum, outside of the earth itself.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Then I'm good with what you're saying. One thing to remember, however, is the reason for the individual lights created on day 4 to be specifically "in the firmament of the heavens" ("in the expanse of gases called 'the skies' or 'the atmosphere'"): "to give light upon the earth" (Gen. 1:15).

Have a great Shabbat!