1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Blueprint for the end

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Randy Kluth, Oct 11, 2021.

  1. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,326
    Likes Received:
    733
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    You should crucify your pride, and put your confidence in Scriptures. In case you didn't get it the first time, I said Jesus referred to *both*--to both the physical temple in Jerusalem and to the temple of his own body.

    "Temple" means what it means *in context.* In context, the Olivet Discourse refers to the physical temple in Jerusalem.

    Anybody reading those Scriptures who is honest will admit that Jesus was *not* referring to his own body, but to the physical building in Jerusalem. When he said "every stone will come down," he was not speaking metaphorically of his body. He was speaking of the destruction of the temple, stone by stone, when the Romans came to Jerusalem and did the deed in the very generation of Jesus, in 70 AD.

    But you go ahead and believe in a flat earth. You might get one or two to believe you. But those who care to believe what the Scriptures actually say will know that Jesus referred to the destruction, by the Romans, of the physical temple in 70 AD.
     
  2. Oseas

    Oseas Active Member

    Messages:
    910
    Likes Received:
    128
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Brazil
    Matthew 22:v.8-14

    8 ... The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

    9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

    10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

    11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

    12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

    13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
     
    bbyrd009 likes this.
  3. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,392
    Likes Received:
    657
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Jesus didnt reference the temple if stone in Jerusalem as you claim, he spoke symbolically of the temple of his body

    There isnt two answers to the question, just one, and that's the temple of his body

    My confidence is in the scripture, I wouldn't say "Pride" but "Truth" that you reject

    Will you be as the pharisees in believing it was a literal temple of stone, that took 46 years to build?

    Yes his disciples remembered he had stated such in their presence, it's that simple

    As is clearly seen, 70AD fulfillment is a teaching in error.

    John 2:18-22KJV
    18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
    19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
    20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
    21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
    22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2021
  4. Oseas

    Oseas Active Member

    Messages:
    910
    Likes Received:
    128
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Brazil
    Matthew 24:v.1-2
    24 And Jesus went out , and departed from the temple:
    and his disciples came to Him for to shew Him the buildings of the temple.

    2 And Jesus said unto them,
    See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left HERE one STONE upon another, that shall not be thrown down. (This prophecy of JESUS literally fulfilled in the year 70AD, and Israel was banned of their land and remained scattered until 1948, that is, their chastisements lasted no less than 1.878 years).

    Their return to their land in 1948, was permitted by GOD because the birth of the son of perdition, the MAN of sin, actually the Beast of the earth(Israel)-Revelation 13:v.11-18-

    in fulfillment of Daniel 9:v.27-last week-week 70th-and establishment of the AOD in the midst of the week-2nd half.

    Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. Day 1.335 . END OF THE CURRENT WORD OF DEVIL
     
  5. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,326
    Likes Received:
    733
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Believing in a literal temple, just like believing in a literal round earth, is not error, is not delusional, but on the contrary, is the truth. And this you reject. Sleep well.

    Jesus never said the Pharisees were in error for believing in a literal temple. Their rejection of Jesus as the bodily temple of God was an error, but not believing in a literal temple in Jerusalem. Everybody knew that existed, and I can't understand how you think believing a building exists is an error?

    But again, if you sleep well on this, God bless you.
     
  6. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,392
    Likes Received:
    657
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    You move backwards in distraction, nobody denies a temple existed in Jerusalen as you claim

    Jesus referred 100% symbolically to the temple of his body when speaking of the temples destruction, it's that simple


    There isnt two answers to the question, just one, and that's the temple of his body

    Will you be as the pharisees in believing it was a literal temple of stone, that took 46 years to build?

    Yes his disciples remembered he had stated such in their presence, it's that simple

    As is clearly seen, 70AD fulfillment is a teaching in error.

    John 2:18-22KJV
    18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
    19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
    20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
    21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
    22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
     
  7. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

    Messages:
    31,189
    Likes Received:
    10,923
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States Minor Outlying Islands
    hmm, why not
     
  8. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,326
    Likes Received:
    733
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Doesn't make sense, my friend.
     
  9. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,326
    Likes Received:
    733
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    You seem terribly confused. What question are you referring to when you say "there aren't two answers to the question?" You admit Herod's temple exists? Great! Then don't say I'm like the Pharisees for believing that Jesus referred to Herod's temple!

    So when Jesus referred to the fact Herod's temple would be torn down, you say I'm like the Pharisees for not believing Jesus was referring to himself being torn down? We both agree that on at least one occasion Jesus did refer to his own body as something about to be "torn down." But on this particular occasion, in the Olivet Discourse, Jesus was not referring to his own body being "torn down." On the contrary, he said "every stone would be removed," implying that he was referring to a literal building on this occasion.

    This isn't the same as when the Pharisees failed to see Jesus as the temple of God. This was the Pharisees failing to see that their house of worship was about to be judged by God!

    Again, you don't set up a seige against a human body! Jesus said a siege would be set up against the city of Jerusalem, leading to the destruction of the physical temple, stone by stone. There is no way you can get around that without contradiction or absurdity.

    Again, believe what you like. But you're a lone man in a crowd of scholars who disagree with you. You are mixing up two separate passages, one in which Jesus compared himself to a temple and the other referring only to the physical temple. The two different passages do not have the same context. Each passage must be interpreted using its own context.
     
  10. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,392
    Likes Received:
    657
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Once again we will disagree

    Jesus Christ referred 100% on the symbolic destruction of the Jerusalem temple, in his death, burial, and resurrection, it's that simple

    You continue to claim Jesus was referencing a literal physical destruction in 70AD, we disagree

    Yes the pharisees were looking at a literal physical temple in Jerusalem, and so are you in a 70AD destruction of stone by Romans in Jerusalem

    John 2:18-22KJV
    18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
    19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
    20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
    21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
    22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021
  11. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

    Messages:
    31,189
    Likes Received:
    10,923
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States Minor Outlying Islands
    doesn’t make sense to you maybe

    how is it you did not know I was not talking about bread?
    .
    i know the wolves will rush in as soon as i leave, not sparing the flock

    im no scholar, but i think i agree with his premise, fwiw
    maybe not these parts
     
  12. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,326
    Likes Received:
    733
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Yes, we will never agree that Jesus referred, in the Olivet Discourse, to *himself!*
     
  13. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,392
    Likes Received:
    657
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    The Temple in Jerusalem was symbolically destroyed, gone, never to be seen again, not one stone left upon another in 33AD

    Matthew 27:50-51KJV
    50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
    51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021
  14. Oseas

    Oseas Active Member

    Messages:
    910
    Likes Received:
    128
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Brazil
    To understand what JESUS spoke to unbelieving Jews, it is necessary, first of all, to have the spirit of Christ. If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His-Romans 8:v.9.

    The temple of Jerusalém had been rebuilt by de murderer and satanic Herod, whose temple the Devil had made it a den of thieves, it had and has nothing to do with the body of my Lord JESUS Christ. Associating the body of JESUS with a den of thieves is a blasphemy.

    Jesus had went into the temple and He cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers and the seats of them that sold doves, and sheep, and oxen, and said unto them: It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

    JESUS said to the Jews: Destroy this temple (because this temple is good for nothing, never more ), and in three days I will raise it up.Be not ignorant of this one thing,that one Day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and thousand years as one Day. JESUS was spoken of the temple of his body-THE CHURCH. Two Days-2.000 years- and have already passed, we just entered and are living in the beginning of the 3rd Day. As JESUS said: Destroy this temple and in three Days I will raise it up - speakin of His body - , this prophecy of my LORD will LITERALLY fulfill in this current time.

    Ephesians 5:v.25-27
    25 ...Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word -the Word is GOD -, 27 That he might present the CHURCH to Himself a glorious Church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.


    Revelation 19:v.7-12

    7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, (and his wife hath made herself ready??? - first she needs to dress for the wedding party like a bride, no? -
    8 And to her was/will be granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

    9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

    10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

    11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth Judge and make War.

    12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a NAME written, that no MAN knew, but he himself. - To say his NAME is JESUS is fake, no true, and contradicts even the WORD OF GOD - becareful or get ready. No MAN knows though it is written, but only he himself.

    In Christ JESUS, KING of kings (kings made by Him exclusively), and LORD of lords
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021
  15. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,326
    Likes Received:
    733
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    No, it was *literally* destroyed in 70 AD. It's a fact of history. That Jesus is the true heavenly temple I don't doubt.
     
  16. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,392
    Likes Received:
    657
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Thanks for the interaction Randy, As We Have Clearly Explained Our Positions,We Will Disagree

    Jesus Is The Lord
     
    Randy Kluth likes this.
  17. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,302
    Likes Received:
    300
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    How is John 2 the Olivet Discourse?
     
    Randy Kluth likes this.
  18. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,326
    Likes Received:
    733
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I appreciate you trying to find middle ground on this, Cassandra, but there is no middle ground. If Jesus claiming to be God's temple (and he is) renders all of Jesus' references to the physical temple "symbolic," then the Olivet Discourse makes absolutely no sense. I can't fix that argument--it's defective, and all the scholars and Bible commentators would see it that way.

    The veil of the temple was literally torn--it is not a symbolic veil nor a symbolic temple. The physical act certainly symbolized something, and I would agree with you on that.

    But the brother is arguing for a symbolic temple and a symbolic veil in the Olivet Discourse. How then would he distinguish between when a physical temple is being referenced and when only a symbolic temple is being referenced in any passage? It would have to be context, and not the application of John 2 in all biblical passages!

    In John 2 the context plainly indicates Jesus is referring to the temple as a metaphor for a human body when he sees himself as God's temple. He is not a physical temple of stone, but an actual human temple of the Holy Spirit.

    But when Jesus said that every stone of the temple would come down, he *could not have meant* himself!! That is an absurdity our brother will forever have to deal with, until he realizes it can't be done.

    It is not *always* a symbolic temple. Sometimes it is a physical temple. Our brother admits that. And the Olivet Discourse clearly indicated a physical temple, not the symbolic temple that Jesus applied to himself. Our brother will *not* admit that! The following is a literal physical temple being contrasted with Jesus as a metaphorical temple...

    John 2.20 They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. "

    Contrast this with Luke 21...

    Luke 21.21 As Jesus looked up, he saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury. 2 He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. 3 “Truly I tell you,” he said, “this poor widow has put in more than all the others. 4 All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.”

    5 Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6 “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”

    7 “Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”...

    32 “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.


    None of this is comparing the physical temple with Jesus as the metaphorical temple of God. It is strictly speaking of the physical temple, and its demise, as was prophesied in Dan 9.26-27.

    Dan 9.26 The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.
     
    Marty fox likes this.
  19. Truth7t7

    Truth7t7 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,392
    Likes Received:
    657
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Randy, are the accounts of John and Matthew below the same event at the temple?

    John 2:13-15KJV
    13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
    14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
    15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

    Matthew 21:12KJV
    12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
     
  20. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,326
    Likes Received:
    733
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Yes, this was apparently just as Jesus arrived at Jerusalem, and therefore before the Olivet Discourse. Jesus was beginning to express his consternation over Jerusalem and its irreligiosity. Ultimately, he would proclaim Jerusalem's demise, when an Army would surround it, and then destroy the temple, removing every stone. This "temple" certainly was not a reference to Jesus, even if Jesus is the eternal temple of God, and this temple was only temporal. Even if the temple under the Law had looked forward to Jesus, it remained the thing Jesus talked about and said would be destroyed. Even if Jesus knew he would himself be destroyed, as well, the Olivet Discourse was an occasion in which Jesus referred to the temple itself as being destroyed, thus ending the period of the Law.

    I would remind you that this was not the first time that God had told His prophets that Jerusalem and its temple would be destroyed. Simply read the book of Ezekiel, and you will see the first run of this kind of prophecy. Ezekiel paints it in graphic detail. And he wasn't speaking of Jesus, even if everything under the Law presages Jesus. Ezekiel was called upon to make clear to Israel that *their physical temple* was about to be destroyed!

    Eze 21.1 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, set your face against Jerusalem and preach against the sanctuary."

    The sanctuary that was judged and destroyed was not Jesus. It was Solomon's temple. The literal destruction of the temple presaged the necessity of Christ's bodily destruction. But one had been a temporal setup, whereas Christ's death was the eternal fix. Two separate matters.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
Loading...