Does a quote from Jesus Himself be deemed valid in accordance with Catholic principle? I know one can't strictly reference Him as an early church Christian writer, and the RCC does have this tendency to place tradition (church father writings etc) above scripture, so before I quote Jesus I thought it expedient to obtain church approval...or your approval as the resident representative of said church.
Books Outside the Bible
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Does a quote from Jesus Himself be deemed valid in accordance with Catholic principle? I know one can't strictly reference Him as an early church Christian writer, and the RCC does have this tendency to place tradition (church father writings etc) above scripture, so before I quote Jesus I thought it expedient to obtain church approval...or your approval as the resident representative of said church.
Among those whose parents and rulers were Catholic, I don't doubt. But what the esteemed brother Ryan is speaking of is the ban of scripture by the church...and enforced through bloody persecution by the state...in provinces where there abode folk whose parents and rulers encouraged education...taught their children to read and write...raised their children to obey the scriptures, memorise them, and testify to friends and neighbours of the truths found therein without interference from busy-body Catholic power hungry prelates who demanded that such practice be curtailed, Bibles forfeited, the owners killed, and any future scripture teaching be entrusted only to church sanctioned and church educated priests...who I think Tyndale condemned as being totally ignorant of scripture truth.
Such educated folk were the Waldenses, who for over 1000 years copied the Bible by hand...taught their children to read and write...and these same children travelled all over Europe as missionaries to the ignorant Catholics who weren't allowed to learn such things because such knowledge uncovered the lies and the perfidy of Rome. Hence the centuries of persecution against those folk simply for obeying the great commission.
hmm let's see how they could have gotten spun around to do such a horrific thing
It already sounds bad...
============================================= from
Bible possession once banned by the Catholic Church!
ITEM #1 POPE INNOCENT III
Pope Innocent III stated in 1199:
... "to be reproved are those who translate into French the Gospels, the letters of Paul, the psalter, etc. They are moved by a certain love of Scripture in order to explain them clandestinely and to preach them to one another. The mysteries of the faith are not to explained rashly to anyone. Usually in fact, they cannot be understood by everyone but only by those who are qualified to understand them with informed intelligence. The depth of the divine Scriptures is such that not only the illiterate and uninitiated have difficulty understanding them, but also the educated and the gifted" (Denzinger-Schönmetzer, Enchiridion Symbolorum 770-771)
Source: Bridging the Gap - Lectio Divina, Religious Education, and the Have-not's by Father John Belmonte, S.J.
ITEM #2 COUNCIL OF TOULOUSE - 1229 A.D.
The Council of Toulouse, which met in November of 1229, about the time of the crusade against the Albigensians, set up a special ecclesiastical tribunal, or court, known as the Inquisition (Lat. inquisitio, an inquiry), to search out and try heretics. Twenty of the forty-five articles decreed by the Council dealt with heretics and heresy. It ruled in part:
"Canon 1. We appoint, therefore, that the archbishops and bishops shall swear in one priest, and two or three laymen of good report, or more if they think fit, in every parish, both in and out of cities, who shall diligently, faithfully, and frequently seek out the heretics in those parishes, by searching all houses and subterranean chambers which lie under suspicion. And looking out for appendages or outbuildings, in the roofs themselves, or any other kind of hiding places, all which we direct to be destroyed."
Canon 6. Directs that the house in which any heretic shall be found shall be destroyed.
"Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; unless anyone from motive of devotion should wish to have the Psalter or the Breviary for divine offices or the hours of the blessed Virgin; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books."
Source: Heresy and Authority in Medieval Europe, Edited with an introduction by Edward Peters, Scolar Press, London, copyright 1980 by Edward Peters, ISBN 0-85967-621-8, pp. 194-195, citing S. R. Maitland, Facts and Documents [illustrative of the history, doctrine and rites, of the ancient Albigenses & Waldenses], London, Rivington, 1832, pp. 192-194.
==========================
Yep pretty horrific. No wonder Pope Francis apologized to the Waldenses last year.
You keep asking questions about why the RCC did horrific things in the dark ages - "as if" we are supposed to find some excuse for them doing it. And you do this as if it somehow helps your point.
Very curious.
The dark ages start around 538A.D. and end in the 1700's - you may recognize that span of time.
Protestants take that position all the time - but you can seldom ever find a Catholic arguing that the RCC was comitting crimes against humanity in the dark ages with their extermination policies, their burning Bibles, burning humans at the stake, inquisition, etc.
The most logical response is to just chalk it all up to sin, evil, crime, ignorance and move on -- which is what Protestants do whenever some bad detail about Protestant history surfaces. Catholics on the other hand tend to "cling" to those bad ideas as 'infallible' since they are on record as being endorsed by supposedly infallible ecumenical councils and commands placed into canon law. They have to toss the doctrine on infallability out the window if they want to come clean on this topic.
1. I did point out that there are some instances where a Protestant nations does something wrong.
2. but that fades to pale by comparison to the RCC's 1260 years of the dark ages
What I do NOT have to do - is circle wagons around any Protestant errors of the past as if some protestant doctrine would fail if any of their bad actors in history were to be condemned.
We can all see that "imagining" those happy-fictions to yourself may be a fine way of keeping your blinders on... but it falls far short of an actual "compelling" and substantive response to the points raised. You knew that right?
- but your repeat performance is duly noted.
As compared to the NT age when reading was found as a common and basic skill among both the gentiles and the Jews. How "sad" that the RCC had the ability to promote illiteracy during the dark ages. How in the world does this "help you"??
Also true during the NT age when they "studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - WERE SO" Acts 17:11.
Luke 24 -
25 And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.
Still "not helping you". Make a point that helps your argument please.
As it is - the "Facts refute" your attempts at every turn. Were we simply "not supposed to notice"??
No doubt success and education were frowned upon by the RCC for centuries -- as you seem to want to argue. Not sure how this helps your argument.
It appears that lacking an actual argument - you are resorting to bold type and large font. How sad.
BreadOfLife
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No - I'm just giving you a public historical spanking ecause you insist on denying history . . .
BreadOfLife
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No – it all historical fact.
YOUR denial of history doesn’t erase it or make it “magiocally” disappear
It simply illustrates that your idiocy of the Church “keeping” Bibles out of the hands of the people is historically-bnkrupt . . .
Good grief . . .
First pf all the Bereans studied the Old Testament, since that was the only “Scripture” available to them. All they would need is access to the scrolls at their local synagogue. Just because Scripture is silent on HOW they accessed those scrolls – there is NO need to jump to the conclusion that they all had pocket Bibles . . .
And once again, you’ve missed the poit because of your blind, stupid hatred.
Educated people would be the ONLY ones who would benefit from the written word because they weren’t illiterate. The rich could afford to have their OWN copies made.
Not that difficult to figure out, Einstein . .
And it’s ALWAYS the case that people complain about text formatting when they have run OUT of intelligent arguments.
Now THAT’S sad . . .
BreadOfLife
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WRONG again, my ignorant friend . . .
Obedience to the Church is not a characteristic of “Rome”.
It’s a command from CHRIST.
Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to me. Whoever rejects YOU rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”
Matt. 18:15-8
“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the CHURCH. If he refuses to listen even to the CHURCH, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Amen, I say to you, WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
BreadOfLife
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Nice try – but that’s NOTthe argument YOU guys brought up.
As I recall, I quoted the Early Church Fathers to show the continuity of the Catholic Church and itsteachings.
YOU guys responded with accusations that the Early Church Fathers going ALL the way back to Ignatius of Antioch and Clement of Rome had perverted the Gospel.
MY question to YOU, then was – where are all of the rebuttals from the “faithful” Early Church Fathers?? SURELY, there are som.
In Matt. 16:18 – Jesus GUARANTEED that His Church would not succumb – even to the gates ofHELL.
So, WHERE are the Early Church rebuttals to these “false” teachings, hmmmmm??
LOL I'm not denying history at all BoL. I agree either that church fathers did indeed write this. I also agree that they were the foundation of Catholicism or the papacy. What I disagree with is that the apostles were the foundation of the papacy. Those quotes you offered prove that, because they are teaching something very different, although perhaps subtly, to that taught by Jesus and his disciples.
Jesus own teachings not early enough for you?
Are you attempting to convince us that there were no other lines of Christian faith and practice, based on the scripture, outside of Rome? You are aware are you not that the church was first established in places like Antioch and Perea and Asia and Britian well before bishop of Rome pretended to be the centre and arbiter of all faith and practice?
I don't see the word"Rome" in any of your quotes. I see church... But there are many churches outside of Rome. Always have been.
BreadOfLife
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And you'd be WRONG abut that.
Christ established ONE Church. The "churches" we read about in the NT are that ONE Church in different locations.
Today, we call them Dioceses and Parishes.
Christ is NOT divided and neither can His BODY be divided . . .
BreadOfLife
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REALLY??
PROVE to me – with documented history that the Church was in Britain BEFORE Peter got to Rome.
As for the Church in the other locations – I already know that, as Peter was Bishop of Antioch before becoming Bishop of Rome. NOT really sure what your point is there, though.
Besides – this is ALL nothing but a dodge because I asked you to provide PROOF that there were other Early Church writers who rebutted the Early Fathers whom YOU say “perverted” the Gospel. If they DID pervert the Gospel – then SURELY there are some writings of more “faithful” followers of Christ that refuted them.
The subject of Peter’s Primacy is just a RUSE so you don’t have to address my earlier challenge.
Nice TRY – but I’m STILL waiting for some evidence . . .
BreadOfLife
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Indeed - Bible banning, Bible burning, historic fact.
hmm let's see how they could have gotten spun around to do such a horrific thing
It already sounds bad...
============================================= from
Bible possession once banned by the Catholic Church!
ITEM #1 POPE INNOCENT III
Pope Innocent III stated in 1199:
... "to be reproved are those who translate into French the Gospels, the letters of Paul, the psalter, etc. They are moved by a certain love of Scripture in order to explain them clandestinely and to preach them to one another. The mysteries of the faith are not to explained rashly to anyone. Usually in fact, they cannot be understood by everyone but only by those who are qualified to understand them with informed intelligence. The depth of the divine Scriptures is such that not only the illiterate and uninitiated have difficulty understanding them, but also the educated and the gifted" (Denzinger-Schönmetzer, Enchiridion Symbolorum 770-771)
Source: Bridging the Gap - Lectio Divina, Religious Education, and the Have-not's by Father John Belmonte, S.J.
ITEM #2 COUNCIL OF TOULOUSE - 1229 A.D.
The Council of Toulouse, which met in November of 1229, about the time of the crusade against the Albigensians, set up a special ecclesiastical tribunal, or court, known as the Inquisition (Lat. inquisitio, an inquiry), to search out and try heretics. Twenty of the forty-five articles decreed by the Council dealt with heretics and heresy. It ruled in part:
"Canon 1. We appoint, therefore, that the archbishops and bishops shall swear in one priest, and two or three laymen of good report, or more if they think fit, in every parish, both in and out of cities, who shall diligently, faithfully, and frequently seek out the heretics in those parishes, by searching all houses and subterranean chambers which lie under suspicion. And looking out for appendages or outbuildings, in the roofs themselves, or any other kind of hiding places, all which we direct to be destroyed."
Canon 6. Directs that the house in which any heretic shall be found shall be destroyed.
"Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; unless anyone from motive of devotion should wish to have the Psalter or the Breviary for divine offices or the hours of the blessed Virgin; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books."
Source: Heresy and Authority in Medieval Europe, Edited with an introduction by Edward Peters, Scolar Press, London, copyright 1980 by Edward Peters, ISBN 0-85967-621-8, pp. 194-195, citing S. R. Maitland, Facts and Documents [illustrative of the history, doctrine and rites, of the ancient Albigenses & Waldenses], London, Rivington, 1832, pp. 192-194.
==========================
Yep pretty horrific. No wonder Pope Francis apologized to the Waldenses last year.
...
The dark ages start around 538A.D. and end in the 1700's - you may recognize that span of time.
Protestants take that position all the time - but you can seldom ever find a Catholic arguing that the RCC was comitting crimes against humanity in the dark ages with their extermination policies, their burning Bibles, burning humans at the stake, inquisition, etc.
The most logical response is to just chalk it all up to sin, evil, crime, ignorance and move on -- which is what Protestants do whenever some bad detail about Protestant history surfaces. Catholics on the other hand tend to "cling" to those bad ideas as 'infallible' since they are on record as being endorsed by supposedly infallible ecumenical councils and commands placed into canon law. They have to toss the doctrine on infallability out the window if they want to come clean on this topic.
1. I did point out that there are some instances where a Protestant nations does something wrong.
2. but that fades to pale by comparison to the RCC's 1260 years of the dark ages
What I do NOT have to do - is circle wagons around any Protestant errors of the past as if some protestant doctrine would fail if any of their bad actors in history were to be condemned.
We can all see that "imagining" those happy-fictions to yourself may be a fine way of keeping your blinders on... but it falls far short of an actual "compelling" and substantive response to the points raised. You knew that right?
- but your repeat performance is duly noted.
As compared to the NT age when reading was found as a common and basic skill among both the gentiles and the Jews. How "sad" that the RCC had the ability to promote illiteracy during the dark ages. How in the world does this "help you"??
Also true during the NT age when they "studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - WERE SO" Acts 17:11.
Luke 24 -
25 And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.
Still "not helping you". Make a point that helps your argument please.
As it is - the "Facts refute" your attempts at every turn. Were we simply "not supposed to notice"??
No doubt success and education were frowned upon by the RCC for centuries -- as you seem to want to argue. Not sure how this helps your argument.
It appears that lacking an actual argument - you are resorting to bold type and large font. How sad.
===================================
I assume you have imagined a scenario where that point actually helps your argument against "sola scriptura" testing instead of totally destroying it -- even more so.
If you have some time apart from your pulpit pounding - would you be interested in explaining to us how your opposition to the Bible teaching of "sola scriptura" testing -- survives that detail in Acts 17:11?
Or do you continue to content yourself with that point totally destroying your position?
There is no reference in all of the NT to someone not being able to read because the Bible was not accessible. And we all know it. Even the Greeks were reading and they did not rely on the Bible at all.
Details matter.
in Christ,
Bob
The Council of Toulouse was not an Ecumencial Council, and its order to prohibit possession of the Bible was under the temporal authority, which even Ecumenical Councils do not exercise infallibly. And their order only applied to the local area under the authority of that local Council. The reason was that certain translations of the Bible were being used to promote a particular heresy (Albigensian heresy). The order was temporary, and local.
But in any case, the order is often misrepresented by Protestants.
"Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; unless anyone from motive of devotion should wish to have the Psalter or the Breviary for divine offices or the hours of the blessed Virgin; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books."
The order applies mainly to translations of the Latin Vulgate. At that time, many of the laity knew Latin, so they could possess the Vulgate for use in the aforementioned devotions.Certain versions at that time were promoting heresy.
Pope Innocent III did not ban the Bible. He sent letters dealing with the same heresies that Toulouse dealt with. He opposed certain translations used to promote those heresies. See this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_t...he_Middle_Ages
and the section called 'Innocent III and vernacular translations'
Also, he did not say that people are incapable of understanding the Bible.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Cum_ex...cto_%281199%29
He objected to certain groups of heretics, who "celebrate their assemblies in secret, usurp for themselves the duty of preaching, mock the simplicity of the priests and reject their community."
In another letter, Innocent wrote: "You should also seek the truth carefully: who was the author of this translation, what was their intention, what is the faith of those using it, what is the cause of teaching it, if they venerate the apostolic see and the Catholic Church" showing his concern for certain translations (those used to promote heresy).
These letters were a local and temporary exercise of the temporal authority of the Pope. The contents did not apply to the universal Church on earth, nor were these letters to the Bishop of Metz added to Canon Law (as is claimed).
Yep pretty horrific for anti-Catholics to go such lengths to ignore context just to persecute Catholics with lies.
Disclaimer and statement of intent: Unfortunately, the religious “scandal score” needs to be evened up now and then, and the lesser-known “skeletons in the closet” need to be rescued from obscurity, surveyed, and exposed. I take no pleasure in “dredging up” these unsavory occurrences, but it is necessary for honest, fair historical appraisal. This does not mean that I have forsaken ecumenism, or that I wish to bash Protestants, or that I deny corresponding Catholic shortcomings.
Historical facts are what they are, and most Protestants (and Catholics) are unaware of the following historical events and beliefs (while, on the other hand, one always hears about the embarrassing and scandalous Catholic stuff — and not often very accurately or fairly at that). If (as I suspect might often be the case) readers are shocked or surprised by the very title of this paper, this would be a case in point, and justification enough for my purposes of education.
Even James Swan, an anti-Catholic Reformed Protestant polemicist and controversialist, who has often incompetently and unfairly savaged my research on early Protestantism, freely admits:
***“There is a sense in which I’m sympathetic to the defenders of Rome who put forth the Tu quoque argument that Protestants have also committed atrocities, so bringing up Rome’s past sins isn’t a logically compelling argument against her . This is why I rarely have written against Rome by pointing out her moral evils.”
Most of the citations on this site are from Protestant historians, so it cannot be accused of doctrinal bias.
CONTENTS
I. PROTESTANT INTOLERANCE: AN OVERVIEW
II. PLUNDER AS AN AGENT OF RELIGIOUS REVOLUTION
III. SYSTEMATIC SUPPRESSION OF CATHOLICISM
IV. PROTESTANT CENSORSHIP
BIBLIOGRAPHY
Protestant Inquisitions: "Reformation" Intolerance & Persecution
aloha.net is linked to the Seventh Day Adventist sites. The sleazy "documentation" style is standard SDA methodology.
Your credibility is in the toilet.
But in any case, the order is often misrepresented by Protestants.
"Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; unless anyone from motive of devotion should wish to have the Psalter or the Breviary for divine offices or the hours of the blessed Virgin; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books."
The order applies mainly to translations of the Latin Vulgate. At that time, many of the laity knew Latin, so they could possess the Vulgate for use in the aforementioned devotions.Certain versions at that time were promoting heresy.
Pope Innocent III did not ban the Bible. He sent letters dealing with the same heresies that Toulouse dealt with. He opposed certain translations used to promote those heresies. See this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_t...he_Middle_Ages
and the section called 'Innocent III and vernacular translations'
Also, he did not say that people are incapable of understanding the Bible.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Cum_ex...cto_%281199%29
He objected to certain groups of heretics, who "celebrate their assemblies in secret, usurp for themselves the duty of preaching, mock the simplicity of the priests and reject their community."
In another letter, Innocent wrote: "You should also seek the truth carefully: who was the author of this translation, what was their intention, what is the faith of those using it, what is the cause of teaching it, if they venerate the apostolic see and the Catholic Church" showing his concern for certain translations (those used to promote heresy).
These letters were a local and temporary exercise of the temporal authority of the Pope. The contents did not apply to the universal Church on earth, nor were these letters to the Bishop of Metz added to Canon Law (as is claimed).
Yep pretty horrific for anti-Catholics to go such lengths to ignore context just to persecute Catholics with lies.
Another lie. Several popes have apologized for all kinds of things. We are not afraid to look history square in the face. We just won't admit to your lies and hate propaganda. Modern Protestant historians no long teach that crap because the hate propaganda has been exposed. I've asked repeatedly for recent historical, scholarly documentation for the items on your hate rant, and you refuse to give it. Obscure untraceable "documentation" as the aloha.net uses is dishonest.
Your use of the word "infallible" is insulting, not to mention plain stupid.
Then let's compare.
Disclaimer and statement of intent: Unfortunately, the religious “scandal score” needs to be evened up now and then, and the lesser-known “skeletons in the closet” need to be rescued from obscurity, surveyed, and exposed. I take no pleasure in “dredging up” these unsavory occurrences, but it is necessary for honest, fair historical appraisal. This does not mean that I have forsaken ecumenism, or that I wish to bash Protestants, or that I deny corresponding Catholic shortcomings.
Historical facts are what they are, and most Protestants (and Catholics) are unaware of the following historical events and beliefs (while, on the other hand, one always hears about the embarrassing and scandalous Catholic stuff — and not often very accurately or fairly at that). If (as I suspect might often be the case) readers are shocked or surprised by the very title of this paper, this would be a case in point, and justification enough for my purposes of education.
Even James Swan, an anti-Catholic Reformed Protestant polemicist and controversialist, who has often incompetently and unfairly savaged my research on early Protestantism, freely admits:
***“There is a sense in which I’m sympathetic to the defenders of Rome who put forth the Tu quoque argument that Protestants have also committed atrocities, so bringing up Rome’s past sins isn’t a logically compelling argument against her . This is why I rarely have written against Rome by pointing out her moral evils.”
Most of the citations on this site are from Protestant historians, so it cannot be accused of doctrinal bias.
CONTENTS
I. PROTESTANT INTOLERANCE: AN OVERVIEW
II. PLUNDER AS AN AGENT OF RELIGIOUS REVOLUTION
III. SYSTEMATIC SUPPRESSION OF CATHOLICISM
IV. PROTESTANT CENSORSHIP
BIBLIOGRAPHY
Protestant Inquisitions: "Reformation" Intolerance & Persecution
Oh sure, bury your head in the sand while pointing at those nasty Catholics.
aloha.net is linked to the Seventh Day Adventist sites. The sleazy "documentation" style is standard SDA methodology.
Your credibility is in the toilet.
Ask someone today where Western Civilization originated, and he or she might say Greece or Rome. But what is the ultimate source of Western Civilization? Bestselling author and professor Thomas E. Woods, Jr. provides the long neglected answer: the Catholic Church. In the new paperback edition of his critically-acclaimed book, How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization, Woods goes far beyond the familiar tale of monks copying manuscripts and preserving the wisdom of classical antiquity. Gifts such as modern science, free-market economics, art, music, and the idea of human rights come from the Catholic Church, explains Woods. In How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization, you’ll learn:
- Why modern science was born in the Catholic Church
- How Catholic priests developed the idea of free-market economics five hundred years before Adam Smith
- How the Catholic Church invented the university
- Why what you know about the Galileo affair is wrong
- How Western law grew out of Church canon law
- How the Church humanized the West by insisting on the sacredness of all human life
No institution has done more to shape Western civilization than the two-thousand-year-old Catholic Church—and in ways that many of us have forgotten or never known. How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization is essential reading for recovering this lost truth.
the gloves are off...bob.
THE SDA/NAZI CONNECTION
Journal of Adventist Mission Studies, Vol. 6 [2010], No. 1, Art. 2
(SDA publication)
It is estimated that a staggering 55 million people perished during WW II, including the six million Jews—men, women, and children—who died in the ethnic extermination camps and ghettos across Europe (US Holocaust Museum:2008)... (no mention of the 3 million Polish Catholics and 1000+ priests, italics mine)
...churches in Germany, then looking at the interactions of the Nazi State and the Seventh-day Adventist Church, and concluding with some of the lessons learned from this sad chapter of Adventist history so that hopefully our church will not stumble again over the same issues in the future...(they already have)
It is mind boggling to attempt to understand how the hermeneutical ...contortions of the leading theologians could excuse and even legitimize such actions against any human being; and yet history sadly attests that it happened. The question we need to ask is: In all this, where did the Seventh day Adventist Church stand?...
...Following in the footsteps of the Christian majority, the Seventh-day Adventist Church cannot be commended for its actions during the Nazi Regime. Echoing the praises for the rise of Hitler to power, Adolf Minck, President of the Adventist German Church, penned his satisfaction with the election of Adolf Hitler in the August Edition of Advenbote (the offical periodical of the Seventh-day Adventist Church in Germany at that time):
...Another example expressing enthusiasm for the Nazi state was Wilhem Mueller who went so far as to label Hitler as “chosen by God” for the office of chancellor and praising his similarity with Adventism’s health reform:...
...Not only did the Seventh-day Adventist leadership sing praises to the Nazi government, it even went so far as “strongly recommending” how its members were to vote in every plebiscite of the Nazi Regime...
...Sadly, in spite of all the praise and official stance that the church took in favor of the government, the Nazi state decided to ban the Adventist Church on November 26, 1933. This ban lasted until December 6, 1933 (Blaich 1994:262)... (2 weeks)
...The Adventist Church’s pro-government PR campaign became much more aggressive after the ban. It went on to support the notion of the Volkisch state, ascribing validity to that idea and saying it was in accordance with biblical principles. In the December 1933 edition of Gegenwartsfragen, one of the Adventist periodicals, it proudly proclaimed that “we are part of this revolution as well—as individual Christians and also as a corporate denominational body” (Blaich 1994:264). This type of enthusiastic approval of the state was not an isolated incident. The acceptance of the Volk concept with its racial undertones, its ideology of ethnic purity, and its implicit proscription of the Jews due to their racial heritage was accepted by the Seventh-day Adventist Church as part of the gospel proclamation...
... “While continuing the traditional emphasis on healthful living, Adventist publications soon adopted elements of the Nazi racial agenda. . . . A curious path led from caritas, the caring for the less fortunate and weak, to elimination of the weak, as the work of God” (Blaich 2002:180)...
...The church leadership was aware of this twisting of terms and meanings. G. W. Schubert, vice-president of the German Adventist Church, shared his “faint hope” with a fellow vice-President of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists that “perhaps this might be the way of the Lord to get the same freedom later on for the distribution of our religious literature” (Blaich 2002:182). That freedom never came and time proved that the compromise was not to be “the way of the Lord.”...
...In a circular passed around on April 4, 1938, the German Union recommended that Adventists hand the Fuhrer “a thankful ‘yes’” (Blaich 1994:265)...
...Furthering its compromise the Adventist Church also agreed with the forced sterilization policy, also known as the Eugenics Laws (Blaich 2002:176). At first the opposition to such policies was open and general among the church members and leadership as it was viewed to be a violation of Christian principles. However in response to this resistance the government responded with an educational campaign that used Adventist journals to defend the new eugenics laws...
...Again, hermeneutical acrobatics were used to defend the government’s position that was based on principles that were completely antagonistic to Adventist beliefs...
...As the eugenics policies became law the opposition to such concepts and legislation was silenced from Adventist publications. Sterilization was only a first step in this racial attack; the next step involved the elimination of those who were deemed to be hazardous elements to the German gene pool. (Blaich 2002:180)....
...As a result the leadership of the Adventist Church recommended that their members should submit to the authorities and not bring any problems among themselves or the church (Blaich 1994:270). As the state regulations against religion increased year after year, the church obeyed them closely in order to avoid a second banishment at the hands of the regime (Pratt 1977:4)...
...the church had little choice but to conform to Nazi standards if it wanted to publish . . . it is also clear that German Adventist leaders eagerly courted Nazi goodwill by accommodating to the new order” (2002:181). After the war, the Adventist German leadership reacted by closing ranks and resisted all outside pressures from the General Conference to denounce or proscribe their perceived errors. It appears that the actions taken were wholly justified by the German leadership. In a letter to the General Conference President, J. L. McElhany, Adolf Minck expressed this sentiment of self-defense by rationalizing that they had followed church policy, they had maintained the structure of the church, and also that they had had to adapt to living the commandments according to the times they lived in, times of war, and not peace, nonetheless maintaining in their minds the holiness of the Decalogue (Minck 1994:277).
https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/...g.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1042&context=jams
Again, this above is gleaned from an SDA publication.
"We have so much in
common...how about a date?
THE SDA/NAZI CONNECTION
Journal of Adventist Mission Studies, Vol. 6 [2010], No. 1, Art. 2
(SDA publication)
It is estimated that a staggering 55 million people perished during WW II, including the six million Jews—men, women, and children—who died in the ethnic extermination camps and ghettos across Europe (US Holocaust Museum:2008)... (no mention of the 3 million Polish Catholics and 1000+ priests, italics mine)
...churches in Germany, then looking at the interactions of the Nazi State and the Seventh-day Adventist Church, and concluding with some of the lessons learned from this sad chapter of Adventist history so that hopefully our church will not stumble again over the same issues in the future...(they already have)
It is mind boggling to attempt to understand how the hermeneutical ...contortions of the leading theologians could excuse and even legitimize such actions against any human being; and yet history sadly attests that it happened. The question we need to ask is: In all this, where did the Seventh day Adventist Church stand?...
...Following in the footsteps of the Christian majority, the Seventh-day Adventist Church cannot be commended for its actions during the Nazi Regime. Echoing the praises for the rise of Hitler to power, Adolf Minck, President of the Adventist German Church, penned his satisfaction with the election of Adolf Hitler in the August Edition of Advenbote (the offical periodical of the Seventh-day Adventist Church in Germany at that time):
...Another example expressing enthusiasm for the Nazi state was Wilhem Mueller who went so far as to label Hitler as “chosen by God” for the office of chancellor and praising his similarity with Adventism’s health reform:...
...Not only did the Seventh-day Adventist leadership sing praises to the Nazi government, it even went so far as “strongly recommending” how its members were to vote in every plebiscite of the Nazi Regime...
...Sadly, in spite of all the praise and official stance that the church took in favor of the government, the Nazi state decided to ban the Adventist Church on November 26, 1933. This ban lasted until December 6, 1933 (Blaich 1994:262)... (2 weeks)
...The Adventist Church’s pro-government PR campaign became much more aggressive after the ban. It went on to support the notion of the Volkisch state, ascribing validity to that idea and saying it was in accordance with biblical principles. In the December 1933 edition of Gegenwartsfragen, one of the Adventist periodicals, it proudly proclaimed that “we are part of this revolution as well—as individual Christians and also as a corporate denominational body” (Blaich 1994:264). This type of enthusiastic approval of the state was not an isolated incident. The acceptance of the Volk concept with its racial undertones, its ideology of ethnic purity, and its implicit proscription of the Jews due to their racial heritage was accepted by the Seventh-day Adventist Church as part of the gospel proclamation...
... “While continuing the traditional emphasis on healthful living, Adventist publications soon adopted elements of the Nazi racial agenda. . . . A curious path led from caritas, the caring for the less fortunate and weak, to elimination of the weak, as the work of God” (Blaich 2002:180)...
...The church leadership was aware of this twisting of terms and meanings. G. W. Schubert, vice-president of the German Adventist Church, shared his “faint hope” with a fellow vice-President of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists that “perhaps this might be the way of the Lord to get the same freedom later on for the distribution of our religious literature” (Blaich 2002:182). That freedom never came and time proved that the compromise was not to be “the way of the Lord.”...
...In a circular passed around on April 4, 1938, the German Union recommended that Adventists hand the Fuhrer “a thankful ‘yes’” (Blaich 1994:265)...
...Furthering its compromise the Adventist Church also agreed with the forced sterilization policy, also known as the Eugenics Laws (Blaich 2002:176). At first the opposition to such policies was open and general among the church members and leadership as it was viewed to be a violation of Christian principles. However in response to this resistance the government responded with an educational campaign that used Adventist journals to defend the new eugenics laws...
...Again, hermeneutical acrobatics were used to defend the government’s position that was based on principles that were completely antagonistic to Adventist beliefs...
...As the eugenics policies became law the opposition to such concepts and legislation was silenced from Adventist publications. Sterilization was only a first step in this racial attack; the next step involved the elimination of those who were deemed to be hazardous elements to the German gene pool. (Blaich 2002:180)....
...As a result the leadership of the Adventist Church recommended that their members should submit to the authorities and not bring any problems among themselves or the church (Blaich 1994:270). As the state regulations against religion increased year after year, the church obeyed them closely in order to avoid a second banishment at the hands of the regime (Pratt 1977:4)...
...the church had little choice but to conform to Nazi standards if it wanted to publish . . . it is also clear that German Adventist leaders eagerly courted Nazi goodwill by accommodating to the new order” (2002:181). After the war, the Adventist German leadership reacted by closing ranks and resisted all outside pressures from the General Conference to denounce or proscribe their perceived errors. It appears that the actions taken were wholly justified by the German leadership. In a letter to the General Conference President, J. L. McElhany, Adolf Minck expressed this sentiment of self-defense by rationalizing that they had followed church policy, they had maintained the structure of the church, and also that they had had to adapt to living the commandments according to the times they lived in, times of war, and not peace, nonetheless maintaining in their minds the holiness of the Decalogue (Minck 1994:277).
https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/...g.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1042&context=jams
Again, this above is gleaned from an SDA publication.
"We have so much in
common...how about a date?
BreadOfLife
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Yes, details DO matter . . .
Regurgitating the same nonsense repeatedly doesn’t lend ANY further credence to your position.
I’ve already destroyed your arguments about “Bible banning", heretical aberrations and illiteracy.
Your notion that ALL of the Bereans were pulling out their pocket Bibles and searching the Scriptures is LAUGHABLY stupid. Illiteracy was rampant in the 1st century. All it would take is 1 or 2 of them who WERE literate to teach the others.
Instead of intelligently researching the historicity of my claims and addressing them – I FULLY expect you to cut-and-paste the same moronic response.
Good job, Einstein . . .
ahhh then there IS a bit of light at the end of that tunnel!!
-------- fine then the "details" you keep ignoring...
Indeed - Bible banning, Bible burning, historic fact.
hmm let's see how they could have gotten spun around to do such a horrific thing
It already sounds bad...
============================================= from
Bible possession once banned by the Catholic Church!
ITEM #1 POPE INNOCENT III
Pope Innocent III stated in 1199:
... "to be reproved are those who translate into French the Gospels, the letters of Paul, the psalter, etc. They are moved by a certain love of Scripture in order to explain them clandestinely and to preach them to one another. The mysteries of the faith are not to explained rashly to anyone. Usually in fact, they cannot be understood by everyone but only by those who are qualified to understand them with informed intelligence. The depth of the divine Scriptures is such that not only the illiterate and uninitiated have difficulty understanding them, but also the educated and the gifted" (Denzinger-Schönmetzer, Enchiridion Symbolorum 770-771)
Source: Bridging the Gap - Lectio Divina, Religious Education, and the Have-not's by Father John Belmonte, S.J.
ITEM #2 COUNCIL OF TOULOUSE - 1229 A.D.
The Council of Toulouse, which met in November of 1229, about the time of the crusade against the Albigensians, set up a special ecclesiastical tribunal, or court, known as the Inquisition (Lat. inquisitio, an inquiry), to search out and try heretics. Twenty of the forty-five articles decreed by the Council dealt with heretics and heresy. It ruled in part:
"Canon 1. We appoint, therefore, that the archbishops and bishops shall swear in one priest, and two or three laymen of good report, or more if they think fit, in every parish, both in and out of cities, who shall diligently, faithfully, and frequently seek out the heretics in those parishes, by searching all houses and subterranean chambers which lie under suspicion. And looking out for appendages or outbuildings, in the roofs themselves, or any other kind of hiding places, all which we direct to be destroyed."
Canon 6. Directs that the house in which any heretic shall be found shall be destroyed.
"Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; unless anyone from motive of devotion should wish to have the Psalter or the Breviary for divine offices or the hours of the blessed Virgin; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books."
Source: Heresy and Authority in Medieval Europe, Edited with an introduction by Edward Peters, Scolar Press, London, copyright 1980 by Edward Peters, ISBN 0-85967-621-8, pp. 194-195, citing S. R. Maitland, Facts and Documents [illustrative of the history, doctrine and rites, of the ancient Albigenses & Waldenses], London, Rivington, 1832, pp. 192-194.
==========================
Yep pretty horrific. No wonder Pope Francis apologized to the Waldenses last year.
...
The dark ages start around 538A.D. and end in the 1700's - you may recognize that span of time.
Protestants take that position all the time - but you can seldom ever find a Catholic arguing that the RCC was comitting crimes against humanity in the dark ages with their extermination policies, their burning Bibles, burning humans at the stake, inquisition, etc.
The most logical response is to just chalk it all up to sin, evil, crime, ignorance and move on -- which is what Protestants do whenever some bad detail about Protestant history surfaces. Catholics on the other hand tend to "cling" to those bad ideas as 'infallible' since they are on record as being endorsed by supposedly infallible ecumenical councils and commands placed into canon law. They have to toss the doctrine on infallability out the window if they want to come clean on this topic.
1. I did point out that there are some instances where a Protestant nations does something wrong.
2. but that fades to pale by comparison to the RCC's 1260 years of the dark ages
What I do NOT have to do - is circle wagons around any Protestant errors of the past as if some protestant doctrine would fail if any of their bad actors in history were to be condemned.
We can all see that "imagining" those happy-fictions to yourself may be a fine way of keeping your blinders on... but it falls far short of an actual "compelling" and substantive response to the points raised. You knew that right?
- but your repeat performance is duly noted.
As compared to the NT age when reading was found as a common and basic skill among both the gentiles and the Jews. How "sad" that the RCC had the ability to promote illiteracy during the dark ages. How in the world does this "help you"??
Also true during the NT age when they "studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - WERE SO" Acts 17:11.
Luke 24 -
25 And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.
Still "not helping you". Make a point that helps your argument please.
As it is - the "Facts refute" your attempts at every turn. Were we simply "not supposed to notice"??
No doubt success and education were frowned upon by the RCC for centuries -- as you seem to want to argue. Not sure how this helps your argument.
It appears that lacking an actual argument - you are resorting to bold type and large font. How sad.
===================================
I assume you have imagined a scenario where that point actually helps your argument against "sola scriptura" testing instead of totally destroying it -- even more so.
If you have some time apart from your pulpit pounding - would you be interested in explaining to us how your opposition to the Bible teaching of "sola scriptura" testing -- survives that detail in Acts 17:11?
Or do you continue to content yourself with that point totally destroying your position?
There is no reference in all of the NT to someone not being able to read because the Bible was not accessible. And we all know it. Even the Greeks were reading and they did not rely on the Bible at all.
Details matter.
hint
1. "Adolf Minck" was never president of the Seventh-day Adventist denomination
2. nor was Ellen White "Adolf Minck" - she died decades before the 1940's had even started and she never had anything bad to say about German Jews or Germans in general in the 1800's.
3. Nor does the SDA denomination condone Minck's actions. Nor do we have to.
4. Germany represents two unions within the much larger Inter-European Division. And the German SDA church today also does not defend mistakes that Minck made as president of the german SDA union in the 1940's.
5. Let's say for example that every single evil deed done by the RCC in the dark ages -- Popes, Cardinals, Councils etc is fully and totally condemned as wicked by Catholics today - then fine... let bygones be bygones just as we would say with any such case for Protestants. But IF the RCC is circling the wagons around "infallible" ecumenicial councils and Papal statements still to this day for those wicked actions... well then we have a problem. This is the "easy part" of the discussion.
At best you can slander the SDA church because we have a practice of not unwittingly making life worse on SDA Christians living in unchristian nations by foolishly attacking those nations from the denomination HQ.
We don't have the concept of "every division or union or conference leader in the SDA church in all of time was infallible so nothing they ever said or did had to be infallibly correct"
How does that rabbit trail help you on "books outside the bible?" - Did Minck add some books outside the Bible??
How does that rabbit trail help you on any other of the topics raised in regard to the RCC?? Was Minck Catholic?
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